Do you think this points to the body having a spirit that goes beyond death?

[PearlSeeker]

God’s servants have always believed in the resurrection. Abraham, who lived 2,000 years before Jesus was born as a human, when asked to sacrifice his son, the Bible says: “He reckoned that God was able to raise him [his son Isaac] up even from the dead.” (Hebrews 11:17-19)
His main reason for being so willing to offer up his son was because of his belief in the resurrection.

Later God’s servant Job asked: “If an able-bodied man dies can he live again?” In answer to his own question, Job said to God: “You will call, and I myself shall answer you.” Job showed that he believed in the resurrection. (Job 14:14-15)

Elijah and Elisha both resurrected children. (1 Kings 17:17-24; 2 Kings 4:32-37)

When Jesus Christ was on earth, he explained: “That the dead are raised up even Moses disclosed, in the account about the thornbush, when he calls Jehovah ‘the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob.’ He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living, for they are all living to him.” (Luke 20:37-38)

The resurrection is so sure that God doesn’t see the dead as gone....just as Jesus said, it is like they are merely “sleeping”.

Lazarus’ sister expressed belief in the resurrection (John 11:24).....and Jesus raised her brother back to his former life. If he had gone to a better place, why bring him back only to die again?

Peter and Paul both performed resurrections.

In the Christian Greek Scriptures the word “resurrection” is used more than 40 times....so the resurrection of the dead is a main Bible teaching for Jews and Christians. (Hebrews 6:1-2)



There is no interim “heavenly state” mentioned in the scriptures. The dead are dead. Why is that so hard for people to accept? Where were we before our parents conceived us? We simply didn’t exist.

Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10...
“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun......Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, [sheol] where you are going.”

Do you see what has died?.....not just their body but their emotions...even love, has “perished”. How is that possible if the person lives on in another form? They cannot work, plan, or utilize their acquired knowledge or wisdom in the grave. Nothing of that person survives....not even the memory of them. Do you know your great, great, great, great grandparents? Even if you know their name, you have no memory of them. Fortunately for us, God remembers every one of them.

“But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death. 21 For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence.” (1 Corinthians 15:20-23)

If Jesus is the “firstfruits” (or the first one to experience physical death but a spiritual resurrection,) where did all those of pre-Christian times go when they died? If they sleep in their graves, there is no need to invent places for them to go.

There is order in the resurrection......and some are resurrected before others. The “first resurrection” is for the those chosen to rule with Christ, but even these were not to be raised until his return. (Revelation 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)

All the dead were to “sleep” until God’s purpose for this earth had been completed. Once the kingdom is established on earth, then the general resurrection of the dead can take place. (John 5:28-29)

Scripture has to back up what you believe...or else what is it that you are believing?

This is what the Bible teaches about the resurrection, as a whole IMV.

Also @moorea944

In Torah there is no mention and no trace of resurrection or anything synonymous. You quoted from Hebrews - NT.

No resurrection in Ecclesastes either. Only sheol (Grave in your translation). And this book is the most bitter about it.

Job is a special case. The belief in sheol (and universal justice) is here already in crisis - it was put on trial! It's an example of theodicy - answering the question how can God permit unjust suffering (suffering that is not a punishment). Suffering of Job is an example of suffering of a righteous one. Yes, there is mention of resurrection - but only as a desire for now. Job 14:13 starts with: "If only You would ..." It hints why the blief in sheol was amended.

Don't look for "going to heaven after death" in OT (at least not in canonical books). It's in NT but you quoted Ecclesiastes.

You said: love perishes? God's love definitely not. And it's filled in our hearts. What is eternal life if not love?
"Love never ends." (1 Corinthians 13:8)
"We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death." (1 John 3:14)
Investing in love means storing up "treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal." (Matthew 6:20)

 

[PearlSeeker]

Fascinating. I agree with almost all of what you've said, but I'm genuinely surprised to hear that you're a Catholic. That doesn't sound much like Catholic theology to me, not that it matters in the slightest. It sounds like you've given all of this quite a bit of thought.

Yes, I definitely think a lot. Maybe for a child is enough to blindly believe what parents and priest say. Usual believers don't bother much but my desire for truth has pushed me forward. I wanted to know ... what? why? how? when? ... and what other religions/schools teach ... It was not easy for me to question what used to be firm, what I was supposed to blindly trust, to admit some other possibilities equally or even more plausible ...

Catholic theology is this: In death, the separation of the soul from the body, the human body decays and the soul goes to meet God, while awaiting its reunion with its glorified body [at resurrection]. After death is "the particular judgement" at the resurrection is "the final judgement". I just believe there are possibly also interim reunions (soul with usual human body that we now inhabit).

 

[Katzpur]

Yes, I definitely think a lot. Maybe for a child is enough to blindly believe what parents and priest say. Usual believers don't bother much but my desire for truth has pushed me forward. I wanted to know ... what? why? how? when? ... and what other religions/schools teach ... It was not easy for me to question what used to be firm, what I was supposed to blindly trust, to admit some other possibilities equally or even more plausible ...

I'm exactly like you in that regard!

 

[Clear]

Ecclesiastes 12:7.Ecclesiastes 12:14. Hebrews 9:27. I have the thinking of a jw witness so I say the answer is no.What do you think?

I have the thinking of a historian of early Judeo-Christian literature, and I think that the early Judeo-Christians who said the answer is yes seems more historically logical and rational than the later Christian movements who adopted a spirit-less world view and interpretation.

1) REGARDING Eccl. 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Modern theists might interpret this to mean that upon death of the body, the spirit in man shall return to God, where it was before. Some theists might interpret it differently. The historical question is how it was meant and understood anciently and originally. If I want to know how the ancient Christians interpreted it, I can read their own comments regarding the matter or what they read that gives a clearer picture.

Therefore, fear not death. For that which is from me, that is the spirit , departs for heaven. That which is from the earth, that is the body, departs for the earth from which it was taken.” (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4) It is the often the additional data that makes clear and confirms

In the popular Apocalypse of Sedrach God sends for the spirit of the Prophet Sedrach. God says, “Go, take the spirit of my beloved Sedrach, and put it in Paradise.” The messenger says to Sedrach, “give me that which our Father deposited in the womb of your mother in your holy dwelling place since you were born.”.... give me your most desired spirit [spirit]. The apocalypse of Sedrach 9:1-2 and 5

The apocalyptic literature of the Jews and Early Christians are by their very definition, full of reference to visions of heaven and spirits there. In the apocalypse of Abraham, he see’s the vision of heaven and the souls there : “And I saw there a great crowd of men and women and children, half of them on the right side of the portrayal, and half of them on the left side of the portrayal. Ch 22 1 “And I said, “Eternal, Mighty One! What is this picture of creation?”......Why are the people in this picture on this side and on that?”.... “ And the angel explains regarding these spirits : “those on the right side of the picture are the people set apart for me of the people with azazel; these are the ones I have prepared to be born of you and to be called my people.” The Apocalypse of Abraham 21:1-7 and 22:1-5;


2) THE EARLY JUDEO-CHRISTIAN LITERATURE DESCRIBES THE ANCIENT BELIEF REGARDING THE SPIRIT EXISTING INDEPENDENT OF AND BEFORE IT WAS PLACED INTO THE BODY.


“At the time that the Holy One, be blessed, was about to create the world, he decided to fashion all the souls which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men, and each spirit was formed into the exact outline of the body she was destined to tenant. Scrutinizing each, he saw that among them some would fall into evil ways in the world. Each one in it’s due time the Holy One, be blessed, bade come to him, and then said: “Go now, descend into this that this place, into this and this body.” The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul

Though one cannot prove the ancient jews or Christians were correct in their doctrine on this point, their literature tells us what THEY believed.

If I simply quote Luke 23:46 where Jesus says, “into thy hands I commend my spirit” upon the death of his body. I might interpret this to mean that the spirit in Jesus body returns to God just as Ecclesiastes said it would while the early Judeo-Christian literature describes their early beliefs that the spirit existed separate of the body and even pre-dates the birth of the body into which it is placed. For examples:

R. Ishmael said : Metatron said to me : Come and I will show you the spirits of the righteous who have already been created and have returned, and the souls of the righteous who have not yet been created. 3rd Enoch 43: 1-3. Again, the Enochian literature illuminates and confirms that the spirit is separate from the Body and it returns to God upon death, just as Ecclesiastes describes.

Though this time period IS a mystery for some of the modern Judeo-Christian movements, it was not a mystery to the early Christians. They possessed clear doctrines concerning this time period and their literature describes it clearly. Their literature described not only the spirits leaving of the body upon death, but they possessed doctrines as to the placing of the spirit into the body : “For just as a potter knows the pot, how much it holds, and brings clay for it accordingly, so also the Lord forms the body in correspondence to the spirit, and instills the spirit corresponding to the power of the body....And just as the potter knows the use of each vessel and to what it is suited, so also the Lord knows the body to what extent it will persist in goodness, and when it will be dominated by evil. Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs- NAPTHALI 2:2-5;

The Jewish Haggadah associated with the Talmud repeats the older legend in great clarity and what IS the testimony of these texts?

“The spirit and body of man are united in this way: When a woman has conceived...God decrees what manner of human being shall become of it – whether it shall be male or female, strong or weak,...and what all it’s other qualities shall be. Piety and wickedness alone are left to the determination of man himself. “Then God makes a sign to the angel appointed over the souls, saying, “Bring me the spirit so-and-so, which is hidden in Paradise, whose name is so-and-so, and whose form is so-and-so.” The angel brings the designated spirit, and she bows down when she appears in the presence of God, and prostrates herself before him. At that moment, God issues the command, “Enter this sperm.” The spirit is reluctant (perhaps scared) to enter the body and mortality, however God reminds this spirit by saying : “ Know, also, you will one day depart from the world below, and if you will observe God’s Torah, then will you be found worthy of sitting with these pious ones. But if not, you will be doomed to the other place.” The Haggadah (The Soul of Man)"

This doctrinal pattern is not just repeated in the ancient literature, but it is CONSISTENT in it’s repetition. It is a consistent doctrine whether it’s sourced from ancient Jewish texts or from ancient christian texts. THIS is the framework by which THEY would look at the biblical texts.

If I quote Gal. 5:17 where the “flesh lusteth against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh” to show that we men have both flesh and spirit, again, I am still confronted by having to interpret the scripture according to my own bias and limited knowledge OR, I can seek for the comments of the early Christians themselves IF they have commented in their early writings. It so happens in this case, that there are MANY writings they have left us that tell us specifically and clearly that they did believe in the existence of a spirit that existed before man was born.

I can even look to the Talmud’s explanation of the relationship between the Body and the Spirit that was taught anciently :

“The body says, ‘The spirit sinned, for from the day it separated from me, behold, I have been lying like a silent stone in the grave.’ Also the spirit can say, ‘The body sinned, for from the day I separated from it, behold I have been flying in the air like a bird.”....So the Holy One, blessed be he, brings the spirits and placing it in the body, he also judges them as one. For it is said, ‘He will call to the heavens from above and to the earth, so he might judge his people.’ ‘He will call the the heavens from above’ – this to the spirit. ‘And the earth so he might judge his people’ The apocryphon of Exekiel Frag one quotes this explanation that comes from the babylonia talmud, Sanhedrin 91a,b;

If we can view the early literature with their doctrines FROM THE VIEWPOINT OF THE ANCIENT JUDEO-CHRISTIANS, then one can better understand scriptures that refer to the spirit in man in the way THEY understood them. One could certainly make similar examples and expositions for other biblical references such as :

Ps. 16:10 (or Acts 2:27, 31) where the psalmist rejoices that God “thou wilt not leave my spirit in hell”
James 4:5 spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy
Job 14:22 his spirit within him shall mourn
Ps. 22:29 none can keep alive his own spirit
Matt. 10:28 fear him which is able to destroy both spirit and body
James 1:21 engrafted word, which is able to save your spirit
1 Pet. 1:22 ye have purified your spirit in obeying
Ezek. 11:19 (36:26–27; 37:14) I will put a new spirit within you
Luke 24:39 spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me
Acts 7:59 Stephen ... saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit
Acts 23:8 Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit
Rom. 8:16 spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit
1 Cor. 6:20 glorify God in your body, and in your spirit

In any case, I hope your journeys are wonderful and insightful as you create you own models as to what you are going to believe regarding the spirit.

Clear
ειτζσισιω

 

[Muffled]

Ecclesiastes 12:7.Ecclesiastes 12:14. Hebrews 9:27. I have the thinking of a jw witness so I say the answer is no.What do you think?

I believe Ecc 12:7 is pretty convincing. Of course there are other verses.

 

[Muffled]

There is no spirit that goes beyond death Frank.....our spirit is our breath....nothing more in this context....why do you keep asking the same questions?

I believe you can keep believing the lies until you die and then you will find out you were wrong

 

[Muffled]

I like looking up verses that are not jw like about death and the afterlife.To see how I can explain my views better about death from a jw perspective.And sharing the things that stump me.

Try this one but look at the context.
Luke 20:38 Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to him.”

 

[Deeje]

I believe you can keep believing the lies until you die and then you will find out you were wrong

Is there some secret about death Muffled? It is the opposite of life...where in the Bible does it say otherwise?

Where did God tell Adam that he would go? (Genesis 3:19) If there was life after death, why didn't God tell Adam about it? Especially if there was a heaven or hell waiting for them...?

 

[moorea944]

Try this one but look at the context.
Luke 20:38 Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to him.”

Do you know why he said that? God's talking about resurrection. He knows that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, along with many people will be raised and given eternal life. Everyone was taught about the resurrection. For an example, look at Acts, where Paul "preached" about the resurrection many times. Look at what David was told in 2 Sam 7....

Luke 13 "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out."

 

[Clear]

Hi @Muffled and @Frank Goad


While there are many modern Christian movements having multiple theories and doctrines with their own interpretation of scriptures, I do not think any of the competing later movement with their doctrines and interpretations are more logical or rational or historically coherent as the earliest Christian movement. I agree with Muffled that the earliest Judeo-Christians would have felt that God was the God of spirits that live and not a God of annihilated things.

1) ADAM WAS A "TWO PART" BEING IN EARLY JUDEO-CHRISTIAN LITERATURE.

When the text says “God shaped man.” (Gen 2:7), the early literature makes clear that this phrase only refers to the lifeless body of Adam. There was a second part that was added to this body formed of elements of this earth, and that was the spirit, described as the “breath/spirit of life”. It was placed into the lifeless body “And he breathed into his face the breath of life”. In early Christian narratives, God forms the lifeless body and then places a spirit into that body to form a living thing, a soul.


For example, in Early Christian Abbaton, God forms the body of Adam, and then waits for a time before placing a spirit into it.

“And He (God) took the clay …and made Adam according to Our image and likeness, and He left him lying for forty days and forty nights without putting breath into him. And he heaved sighs over him daily, saying, "If I put breath into this [man], he must suffer many pains." (Abbaton) The text makes clear that THIS "Adam" is a spiritless, lifeless body, before any spirit is placed into it.

Such deeply imbedded context permeates the early Judeo-Christian literature.

The early Christian text On "the origin of the world" also relates this same early Christian doctrine : “...he was afraid lest perhaps the man come into his molded body and rule over it. Because of this, he left his molded body forty days without soul. And he withdrew and left him.” The point is that it is the spirit which God placed into Adam which gave life and intelligence to the lifeless body.

Multiple early documents confirm this ancient Christian understanding. For example : Gospel of Phillip explains “The soul of Adam came into being by means of a breath, which is a synonym for spirit." And another version says “Adam came into being from two virgins, from the Spirit and from the virgin earth. “


This Christian doctrine forms the context underlying early Christian literature. For example, the narrative from Life of Adam and Eve (apocalypse) says that after Adam dies “1 … God called Adam and said, “Adam, Adam.” And the body answered from the ground and said, “Here I am, Lord.” 2 And the Lord said to him, “I told you that you are dust and to dust you shall return. 3 Now I promise to you the resurrection; I shall raise you on the last day in the resurrection with every man of your seed.” (41:1-3) In such literature, it is not Adams' lifeless body decomposing in the ground which is speaking to God, but it is Adams still living spirit which had been placed in the body during Adams lifetime which is answering God.

In the same context of man as a dual creature (body and spirit) when God said to Michael (Gospel of Bartholemew) “Bring me earth from the four ends of the world and water out of the four rivers of Paradise. And when Michael had brought them to him, he formed Adam in the east, and gave form to the shapeless earth, and stretched sinews and veins, and united everything into a harmonious whole. (Ch IV) This text is describing the formation of the lifeless body when he says “he formed Adam”. The narrative makes clear that the spirit had not yet been placed into the lifeless body at this point. Without a spirit in the body, it is lifeless.

2) IN EARLY LITERATURE, THE SPIRIT PLACED INTO THE BODY WAS WHAT GAVE THE BODY LIFE AND INTELLIGENCE AND EMOTIONS

The earliest sacred Christian literature confirms the spirit existed separately from the body which the spirit is placed into. For example, Testaments of the twelve explain “For just as a potter knows the pot, how much it holds, and brings clay for it accordingly, so also the Lord forms the body in correspondence to the spirit, and instills the spirit corresponding to the power of the body.” Napthali 2:2-5

In apo Ezekiel (fragment one, chap 2) speaks of the attempt by a spirit (during the judgment) to blame evil deeds on the body it was place into. “The body says, ‘The spirit sinned, for from the day it separated from me, behold, I have been lying like a silent stone in the grave.’ Also the spirit can say, ‘The body sinned, for from the day I separated from it, behold I have been flying in the air like a bird.” (This is the same as the explanation from the Babylonia Talmuds version of this same story, Sanhedrin 91a,b) In the narratives of such literature, it is clear that the Body and Spirit are separate things.


3) THERE ARE MULTIPLE VERSIONS OF EZEKIEL 12:7s DOCTRINE IN EARLY JUDEO-CHRISTIAN LITERATURE

Speaking of a brother who died, the Rechabites spoke of their belief : “9 And then the soul of our blessed brother leaves the body in which it had settled; and with joy far removed from mourning it approaches and comes to the holy angels and ascends up to God with joy. 10 But we with one accord see the soul when it leaves the body clearly and plainly; the appearance of the soul when it leaves the body is the likeness of a glorious light, and formed and imprinted in the likeness and type of the body, and it is spiritually flying. History of the Rechabites 15:9-10

Multiple versions clarify and confirm this doctrine of the Body and it’s elements returning to the earth, while the spirit returns to God. “Therefore, fear not death. For that which is from me, that is the soul, departs for heaven. That which is from the earth, that is the body, departs for the earth from which it was taken.” The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4;

In any case, good luck in coming to your own models as to what the early author meant in Ecclesiates 12:7 when he said the body would return to the Ground and the spirit would return to the God who gave it.

Clear
ειειφιφυω

 

[Deeje]

@Clear Your entire post is devoid of accepted scripture (except for a brief reference to Genesis)......non-canonocal works are not included in the Bible canon for a very good reason.....they do not support the Bible's 'clear' teaching of the resurrection, which does not rely on any conscious part of man to exist anywhere but in God's memory, and their future life rests in his power to re-create those he will return to life. For the majority of mankind, this will mean a return to this life on a cleansed earth, without the destructive and lying influence of satan. Paradise conditions will be restored as God purposed all along. He created the earth for us and it was always intended to be our permanent home. In Eden there is no mention of death except as a penalty for disobedience. What God started, he will finish. (Isaiah 55:11; Revelation 21:2-4)

These "early Judeo-Christian" sources are not representative at all of what the ancient Jews or the earliest Christians believed. Both strayed off the path of truth as it was foretold. Judaism in Jesus' day was not the religion that God gave the Jews at Mt Sinai...the traditions of men had corrupted it. The very same thing happened to Christianity....'Christendom' is not representative of the Christianity that Jesus and the apostles taught either. "Men were sleeping" when the devil sowed his weeds (tares). Tares were often called "wheat's evil twin"....it resembled the wheat in the early stages of growth but it was only truly identifiable at the harvest time, when it was seen to be very different to the real "wheat". I believe that we are in the harvest time now, according to scripture.

These "early" sources were written after the foretold apostasy had begun. The "weeds" of false Christianity, planted by the devil, were designed to lead people away from God and his truth and into the devil's empire of false religion, which all have this teaching of 'life after death' in common. Why? Because it perpetuates the devil's first lie that humans "surely will not die", but will continue living invisibly 'somewhere'. You will not find any teaching of life after death in the Bible except by resurrection....and that is true regardless of whether we are chosen for rulership in heaven with Christ, or whether we will be their earthly subjects. The Bible says that God's purpose for the earth and humankind upon it will be restored....humans will enjoy endless life in paradise conditions, though still in mortal flesh, as it was in Eden. Continued life was dependent on continued obedience. The "tree of life" was there to guarantee endless life, as long as they obeyed God's instruction. Ask yourself what would have happened if the humans had never disobeyed?

If these early writings were in harmony with the Bible, then they would teach that man's "soul", like the animals, is the entire living, breathing creature. That the "spirit" which is the life force that animates the body, (sustained by breathing) is like electricity that brings a dead appliance to life......like the computers we are using would be lifeless without a power source. Neither the soul nor the spirit possess conscious life apart from the body....body, soul and spirit make up the whole being. None can exist without the other. If animals are "souls" (which the Bible says they are) then where is the promise to them of everlasting life? (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20) We all end up in the same place. Only humans are promised a resurrection.

Your reliance on non-canonical sources to provide Biblical truth is quite misleading IMV.

good luck in coming to your own models as to what the early author meant in Ecclesiates 12:7 when he said the body would return to the Ground and the spirit would return to the God who gave it.

Returning the "spirit" (breath) to a resurrected human is what Ecclesiastes means. Solomon already stated that humans and animals die the same death and return to the dust as Adam did. Why would he contradict himself? Solomon knew the difference between "soul" and "spirit"...it is those who became apostate later who twisted his words. Perhaps you underestimate satan's success.....? (1 John 5:19)

 

[Clear]

POST ONE OF TWO

Hi @Deeje and @Frank Goad and @Muffled ;


In the O.P. Frank Goad presented Ecclesiates 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.” Frank explained that he was a Jehovahs Witness and indicated that his religion did not believe in a spirit that “goes beyond death”. He asked posters whether they thought Ecclesiates 12:7 indicated a spirit did “go beyond death”.

I pointed out that, historically, the earliest Judeo-Christian religion DID believe in a spirit that was placed inside the body and gave multiple examples from scriptures (post 84) and from early Judeo-Christian literature (post #90) to confirm this historical doctrine.


1) REGARDING SCRIPTURAL EXAMPLE OF A SPIRIT IN RELATION TO ECCLESIATES 12:7
Deeje claimed : @Clear Your entire post is devoid of accepted scripture (post #91)
Maybe you missed them?

In post #84 I referred not only to Ecclesiates 12:7, but multiple other examples of scriptures which refer to the existence of a spirit.
For examples :
Luke 23:46 says, “into thy hands I commend my spirit” - Jesus cannot commend his spirit if he does not have a spirit. Thus, Jesus had a spirit.
Gal. 5:17 says “flesh lusteth against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh” - The flesh cannot “lust against” a spirit that doesn’t exist.
Ps. 16:10 (or Acts 2:27, 31) where the psalmist rejoices that God “thou wilt not leave my spirit in hell” – A spirit must exist if it is to be “left” anywhere.
James 4:5 "spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy" – A spirit dwells in us that is capable of lust.
Job 14:22 his spirit within him shall mourn – The spirit within man can mourn.
Ps. 22:29 none can keep alive his own spirit – A living spirit must exist in the first place if one is unable to keep it alive.
Matt. 10:28 fear him which is able to destroy both spirit and body – A spirit must exist if it can be destroyed.
James 1:21 engrafted word, which is able to save your spirit – A spirit must exist if it can be saved.
1 Pet. 1:22 ye have purified your spirit in obeying – A spirit must exist if it can be purified.
Ezek. 11:19 (36:26–27; 37:14) I will put a new spirit within you – A spirit must exist if it is to be put into us.
Luke 24:39 spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me – A spirit must exist if it either has or lacks something. .
Acts 7:59 Stephen ... saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit – A spirit must exist if it can be received.
Acts 23:8 Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit – The concept of a spirit existed, else the concept could not have been denied by the Sadducees.
Rom. 8:16 spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit – A spirit must exist if it can “bear witness”
1 Cor. 6:20 glorify God in your body, and in your spirit – A spirit must exist if it can “glorify God”.


2) THE PURPOSE OF POST #90 REFERENCING LITERATURE WRITTEN BY THE EARLY JUDEO-CHRISTIANS THEMSELVES AND THEIR BELIEF IN A SPIRIT

The purpose of post #90, was not to provide another list of scriptures which everyone already has access to. The post had several purposes.

A) To give multiple examples from early Judeo-Christian literature to confirming early Judeo-Christians believed in a spirit.

B) To give multiple witness from early Judeo-Christians themselves, in their own words demonstrating how Early Judeo-Christians interpreted biblical texts to mean a spirit exists.

C) To confirm that this orthodox doctrine regarding the existence of a spirit existed for long periods of time and over large geographical distances.

(I do agree with Deejes' point that translators often mix up the words “spirit” and “soul” and thus my examples should read “spirit” in the place of “soul” in most instances. )

For examples :

Regarding the early Judeo-Christian belief that Adam was a “dual” being (i.e. consisting of spirit and body).
In Genesis 2:7 the dual nature of man correlates to the dual sentences describing the process of creating a living adam.

a) The creation of a lifeless body
The first sentence Ch 2 vs 7 describes the creation of Adams body : “And God shaped man, taking dust from the earth.” This is a body, but it is lifeless, unintelligent, unemotional, unthinking, without independent will of it’s own.

b) The addition of the spirit to the body
The second sentence is “And he ‘breathed’ into his face, the breath of life and man became a living soul”. In early Christian worldviews, this references the placing of a spirit into Adam to make a soul (i.e. a spirit in a living body)

The word “breathed” here is ενεφυσησεν (LXX)., the base word is φυσιοω (physio) and though it can mean to “puff up”, in φυσις (Physis) it means “nature” (it’s where we get the word “physical’ in English). Adam became part of the natural, living world by means of this second part of this dual process when he had something put into his lifeless body.

In early Christian worldviews, the thing put into Adam was not merely “breath” or “air” or “wind”, rather the thing put into adam gave his body “intelligence”, “emotions”, “will” and other characteristics of intelligent life. In early Christianity, A spirit was placed into Adams lifeless body. Mere wind, or air, or breath does not instill these qualities of intelligence and emotion and will, etc. The early Christian Gos Phillip tells us that “The soul of Adam came into being by means of a breath, which is a synonym for spirit." (Gos Phillip)

In this way, Adam, was a dual being was made of a body and the spirit which animated and provided intelligent action to the body. The earth had never made a man’s body and Adams spirit had never inhabited a body before. Thus the Christian teaching was that “Adam came into being from two virgins, from the Spirit and from the virgin earth. “ (gos Phillip)

c) Even descriptions of death in early Christian literature represent this same duality.

At the death of Adam, his body remains in the earth, yet God communicates with Adam’s spirit as I demonstrated from the narrative from Life of Adam and Eve (apocalypse). After Adam died “ … God called Adam and said, “Adam, Adam.” And the body answered from the ground and said, “Here I am, Lord.” 2 And the Lord said to him, “I told you that you are dust and to dust you shall return. 3 Now I promise to you the resurrection; I shall raise you on the last day in the resurrection with every man of your seed.” (41:1-3) In such metaphorical descriptions, it is not Adams' lifeless body in the ground which actually speaks to God, but rather it is Adams still living spirit which had been placed in the body during Adams lifetime which is answering God.

This, and many, many other example demonstrat how the early Christians themselves describe their interpretation of the dual nature of mankind as dust (or body) and spirit, represented in Ecclesiates 12:7 “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”



3) THE CLOSE RELATIONSHIP OF THE BODY AND SPIRIT

“…the Lord forms the body in correspondence to the spirit, and instills the spirit corresponding to the power of the body.” Napthali 2:2-5

Early Christian witnesses from their literature confirms the Christian belief that the spirit existed separately from the body which the spirit is placed into and, just as Ecclesiates 12:7 tells us, the body, (as dust) return(s) to the earth as it was: and the spirit return (s) unto God who gave it.

In a more detailed version of this, the Babylonia Talmud tells the parable of a man who died and went to judgment. His spirit, after death, tried to blame his behavior on his body, while his body blamed his spirit for the ill behaviors in the same manner that Gal. 5:17 says “flesh lusteth against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh” . In a parallel teaching the example from apo ezek reads “The body says, ‘The spirit sinned, for from the day it separated from me, behold, I have been lying like a silent stone in the grave.’ Also the spirit can say, ‘The body sinned, for from the day I separated from it, behold I have been flying in the air like a bird.” Such teachings confirm the biblical message of Ecclesiates 12:7 when it says that the body, (as dust) return(s) to the earth as it was: and the spirit return (s) unto God who gave it.

Such a duality is expressed in much of the early literature as I pointed out in the History of the Rechabites : “9 And then the spirit of our blessed brother leaves the body in which it had settled; and with joy far removed from mourning it approaches and comes to the holy angels and ascends up to God with joy. 10 But we with one accord see the spirit when it leaves the body clearly and plainly; the appearance of the spirit when it leaves the body is the likeness of a glorious light, and formed and imprinted in the likeness and type of the body, and it is spiritually flying. History of the Rechabites 15:9-10

This is simply another Christian confirmation that Ecclesiastes 12:7 is true, that “…the dust return(s) to the earth as it was”. And when His Rechabite narrative speaks of how the spirit “leaves the body” and “Ascends up to God with joy”, it is simply another confirmation that Ecclesiates is true when it witness that “the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”

This was the point in quoting Apo Ezra where the narrative says “…fear not death. For that which is from me, that is the soul, departs for heaven. That which is from the earth, that is the body, departs for the earth from which it was taken.” The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4;

Such witnesses confirm the early Christian belief in Ecclesiates 12:7 where body, (as dust) return(s) to the earth as it was: and the spirit return (s) unto God who gave it.

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[Clear]

POST TWO OF TWO



4) REGARDING THE CLAIM THAT CHRISTIAN WITNESS LITERATURE DOES NOT REPRESENT CHRISTIAN BELIEF
Deeje claimed : “… "early Judeo-Christian" sources are not representative at all of what the ancient Jews or the earliest Christians believed.” (post #91)

This is a very strange claim since these writings ARE written by the ancient Jews and earliest Christians themselves specifically to witness to the world regarding their beliefs.

Consider Clement, who is the colleague of both the apostle Peter and with the apostle Paul of New Testament literature. Clement, in his writings tells us what he was taught by the apostle Peter and, one of the first things he is taught is regarding the nature of man in the same dual model of body / spirit as Old Testament Genesis and in the same dual model as old Testament Ecclesiates.

However, you imply these Christians are apostates.

This makes no sense to imply that these two apostles, their teaching and their New Testament convert Clement are “apostates” simply because their type of Christianity taught that spirits exist. Paul tells us in Phillipians 4:3 that “… Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.” In Peter and Pauls type of Christianity, Clement was not an “apostate”, but instead, was a good man and among those who were saved.

Your theory that these sort of people are apostates is illogical and irrational simply because it disagrees with the doctrine and interpretation your religious movement has created and adopted and teaches.

Your claim that this literature does not represent Judaism is strange as well. For example, if there is any literature that IS representative of rabbinic Judaism, the Talmud is one of the chief among Jewish literature and it’s example describing spirits is “Jewish”.


5) THE INABILITY OF JEHOVAHS WITNESS THEOLOGY TO USE EARLY CHRISTIAN LITERATURE MEANS SOMETHING

The debunking of your claim that I did not use biblical texts is obvious to anyone who can read post #84 with it’s many examples from biblical texts.
The use of Early Judeo-Christian literature demonstrates that the belief in spirits was completely orthodox in early Judeo-Christianity.

However,
The INABILITY of Jehovahs Witness theology to use early, historical Judeo-Christian literature to support its interpretation and it’s world views means something.

The reason that Jehovahs Witness theology is unable to use early Jewish and Christian documents regarding Ecclesiates 12:7 is that the earliest Judeo-Christian witness literature do not support your doctrine and interpretation of Ecclesiates 12:7. You cannot expect early Christianity with its literature to support your religious movement since the Earliest Christian movement and the Jehovahs Witness movement are two different religions.


Deeje said : “Returning the "spirit" (breath) to a resurrected human is what Ecclesiastes means.” (post #91)

This is what it means to the Jehovahs Witness movement with its modern set of interpretations that are different than that of early Christianity.
To the Early Judeo-Christians, there was no need to reinterpret Ecclesiates.
To the early Judeo-Christians Ecclesiates 12:7 meant just what it says : “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it”. (Ecclesiastes 12:7)
AND, the scripture says the spirit returns to God, not to " a resurrected human".

Deeje claimed : “These "early" sources were written after the foretold apostasy had begun.” (post #91)

While 1Enoch was written approx. 300 b.c., 1 Clement, was the colleague of the apostle Peter and Clement wrote his narrative at the same time John is writing his book of New Testament "Revelations" and importantly, Clement was taught these doctrines and received his interpretations by the apostles Peter and Paul and by Barnabas.

It seems irrational to imply these sources such as the apostle Peter via Clement are teaching “apostate” doctrines simply because they disagree with your doctrine and interpretation.
I do agree with the logic that either the apostles Peter and Paul and Clement are teaching apostate doctrine, or you are. Readers can decide..


6) Regarding the suggestion that sources written after the Biblical era are apostate.

The Jehovahs Witness interpretation does not even exist in any of the early Judeo-Christian literature. It is a relatively modern innovation compared to early Christianity.

IF being written later than the biblical writing is an indication of apostasy, then Jehovahs Witness theology and interpretations were innovations conceived and written down LONG, LONG, LONG after the apostasy began and thus has a much higher chance of representing part of an apostasy than the theology of the apostle Peter and of his colleague Clement.


The rest of your post seems to be a presentation of J.W. dogma.

Remember, in discussing Ecclesiates, we are attempting to determine what the text meant to the writer of Ecclesiates and to the earliest Christians. We are not talking about what it means inside Jehovahs Witness theology. The early Judeo-Christian religion and the Jehovahs Witness religion are two very different religions on this point of spirits. (“Apples and Oranges”). We are speaking of early Judeo-Christian theology and their historical beliefs and their historical interpretations


IN any case, I hope your spiritual journey is wonderful Deeje.


Clear
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[moorea944]

Also @moorea944

In Torah there is no mention and no trace of resurrection or anything synonymous. You quoted from Hebrews - NT.

No resurrection in Ecclesastes either. Only sheol (Grave in your translation). And this book is the most bitter about it.

Job is a special case. The belief in sheol (and universal justice) is here already in crisis - it was put on trial! It's an example of theodicy - answering the question how can God permit unjust suffering (suffering that is not a punishment). Suffering of Job is an example of suffering of a righteous one. Yes, there is mention of resurrection - but only as a desire for now. Job 14:13 starts with: "If only You would ..." It hints why the blief in sheol was amended.

Don't look for "going to heaven after death" in OT (at least not in canonical books). It's in NT but you quoted Ecclesiastes.

You said: love perishes? God's love definitely not. And it's filled in our hearts. What is eternal life if not love?
"Love never ends." (1 Corinthians 13:8)
"We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death." (1 John 3:14)
Investing in love means storing up "treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal." (Matthew 6:20)

[In Torah there is no mention and no trace of resurrection or anything synonymous]

I totally disagree! In Genesis, which is also part of the Torah, look at Abraham. He believed in the resurrection. Also I just cant believe that no one else didnt believe in it. Like... resurrection just "started" to be preached at a certain time in life. So look at the promises given to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, just to start. Because we are in those promises too through baptism dont forget.

 

[Hawkins]

Ecclesiastes 12:7.Ecclesiastes 12:14. Hebrews 9:27. I have the thinking of a jw witness so I say the answer is no.What do you think?

Yes, God gives everyone a spirit to carry what is necessary for a human to live an earthly life, including one's conscience. The spirit will return to God upon your death. Your soul represents the real you which lasts for an eternity in order to stand a continuous witnessing. If you are discontinued along with the decay of your body, no one (except for God) knows whether the you is still the same you before the resurrection. You are the same you as can be witnessed by the angels and chosen saints only when you have a soul to represent the real you, such that an open and legitimate Final Judgment can be facilitated after the resurrection. Or else no witness can tell whether the you is the same you to stand trial after the resurrection. A close analogy is, you committed a murder but died in a car incident, someone with scientific ability has clone another you, the same you in terms of DNA, to stand trial. Is it legitimate? The answer is no, even when he's with the same DNA as you are, he's still an innocent. He's not the real you in terms of legitimacy to stand trial for a crime not committed by him.

In a similar manner, only God knows is not a legitimate witnessing generally speaking, though God Himself can stand valid witnessing as God is a Trinity. However if "only God knows" applies to each one's judgment then no one can tell whether the judgment is a fair judgment and God is a fair God as only He Himself knows without another valid witness. In order for others besides God to tell whether a judgment is open and fair, your soul is required to be witnessed (by the angels and chosen saints who have the ability to reckon a soul) in order for such a Final Judgment to be carried out legitmately.

Since a human is designed to go through different stages (earthly stage and heavenly stage at least), your spirit is needed to carry something specific to a stage. Say, your earthly emotions only remain in your earthly stage. After your death you no longer have the same affection for your parents or your children. They are more or less like your ex-girl friends or boy friends. You can still remember them but your love for them are gone. This cannot be achieved without a spirit. With the spirit "storing" your emotions. Your love for your parents and kids only remains here on earth. After death your spirit returns back to God as said. It's gone with your love for your parents and kids. In Heaven then, you will be given a new body perhaps with a new spirit which "stores" only the love for your brothers and sisters in Heaven.

 

[PearlSeeker]

[In Torah there is no mention and no trace of resurrection or anything synonymous]

I totally disagree! In Genesis, which is also part of the Torah, look at Abraham. He believed in the resurrection. Also I just cant believe that no one else didnt believe in it. Like... resurrection just "started" to be preached at a certain time in life. So look at the promises given to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, just to start. Because we are in those promises too through baptism dont forget.

OK. Promises to Abraham: Genesis 12:2-3.
Sorry, no resurrection there.

 

[moorea944]

OK. Promises to Abraham: Genesis 12:2-3.
Sorry, no resurrection there.

Your kidding me, right? Did you read the promises? to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? I"m sure Adam and Eve knew about resurrection too. Why would they not? You have to remember that Christ brings back the promises and rewards with him when he returns. People would have had to learn about the resurrection even if it's not recorded for every person in scripture.

 

[Clear]

Hi @PearlSeeker and @moorea944

I have to agree with Moorea944 on this point, (at least as far as historical early Judeo-Christianity is concerned). The early Judeo-Christian literature makes clear that Adam was taught about his own death and he was taught that he would have a savior and that Adam was given the same promise of resurrection as all others are given. There is a genre of literature called "decensus" literature and it details the decensus of Jesus' spirit into Hades/sheol/world of spirits during the three days before his own resurrection when he led those patriarchs, Adam included, out of Hades and on to their promised resurrection. Jewish Haggadic literature and early Hymns also confirm these same ancient traditions concerning Adam.

Clear
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[PearlSeeker]

The early Judeo-Christian literature makes clear...

Irrelevant. I was writing about Torah.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Your kidding me, right? Did you read the promises? to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?

Let's start with Abraham. Can you show me the resurrection in the promise to him?