Do you think this points to the body having a spirit that goes beyond death?

[Thief]

did you notice.....
no one was sent to spare the relatives of the rich man

instruction of Moses and the prophets was dealt as sufficient

to raise a dead Man and send Him....
would not convince them
if they heed not the words of Moses and the prophets

 

[Katzpur]

That's because it clearly is...

Says she whose great and unmatched wisdom shall not be doubted.

 

[PearlSeeker]

The story of the rich man and Lazarus (a common name at the time) is also a parable....it too is not a literal story, but one rife with symbolisms.

This is how I understand the parable......

Yes. A parable has many meanings. Your interpretation is also one possibility...

We know that parables have a symbolical meaning but the signifier itself is based on some facts and actual beliefs. The richman and Lazarus wouldn't be depicted in some place after death if there wasn't such a belief. If in a parable a plant grows from seed is this also a natural fact.

This experience by Paul is not clearly stated in exact detail, even Paul himself did not understand what had happened to him....so no one really knows what sort of vision he had.

He said...."I know a man in union with Christ who, 14 years ago—whether in the body or out of the body, I do not know; God knows—was caught away to the third heaven. 3 Yes, I know such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body, I do not know; God knows— 4 who was caught away into paradise and heard words that cannot be spoken and that are not lawful for a man to say."

"Caught away to paradise" doesn't necessarily mean heaven. The first paradise was right here on earth. So in all probability it was a vision. All we know is that "flesh and blood" cannot exist in heaven. No one really knows what the third heaven is.

Paul wrote..."But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed. 53 For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will take place: “Death is swallowed up forever.” 55 “Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting?” 56 The sting producing death is sin, and the power for sin is the Law. 57 But thanks to God, for he gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!" (1 Corinthians 15:50-57)

Those chosen by God for heavenly rulership will inherit immortality, but those resurrected to the earth will remain in their mortal flesh, but without sin and the trees of life being available to all...death will not trouble those who have an earthly paradise to enjoy. (Revelation 21:2-4)

Paul didn't know how he went to third heaven/paradise but he was sure he went there and he believed access to this realm is possible - in body or out of body. The later means that someone can leave a body (and stay awake). According to Paul it's possible.

1 Cor 15:50-57 is about expecting the Kingdom of God to come soon (in the time of then generation). Those who will be dead when this happens, will be resurrected and become immortal and incorruptible (sinless). Those who will be alive will not have to die and be resurrected but they will be changed when alive, so they will also become immortal and incorruptible. No heaven and discarnate spirits here. It's about Kingdom of God on earth.

Paul said "that flesh and blood cannot inherit..." because in the Kingdom you put on a different body - spiritual body that isn't able to die and sin (by logic: consequence of sin is death).

 

[Thief]

somewhere I read.....fear not what harm may come to your flesh
rather you should fear ….He....who is able to rend the soul

I have posted many times
we are assembled
we can be disassembled

the body is dust....no doubt

I suspect there are too many copies of this learning device to assume it all ends in dust

what?
no chance of living beyond the last breath?
not one?.....in billions

 

[PearlSeeker]

OK...at birth, I believe that we are a new creation....the genetic product of our parents. I do not believe that we have lived before our birth, or that we will live on after death. We are who we are while we are in this body. We are judged by the choices we make in this life.

And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” (John 9:2)

What about that? Very different from the "tabula rasa" theory. Sounds more like belief in reincarnation.

"Hell" in the Bible is the grave.....it is no more sinister than that. Even "gehenna" (incorrectly translated as "hell") is nothing of the sort.
There is no consciousness in death and unconscious souls feel no joy or torment....they feel nothing...they know nothing.

The "geography" of afterlife:

Sheol = Hades = underworld
Gehenna = Tartarus = hell
Shamayim = Paradise = heaven(s)

 

[Katzpur]

We know that parables have a symbolical meaning but the signifier itself is based on some facts and actual beliefs. The richman and Lazarus wouldn't be depicted in some place after death if there wasn't such a belief. If in a parable a plant grows from seed is this also a natural fact.

That's absolutely true. Even if the story told in a parable didn't actually happen, a parable would never teach something that was flat out contrary to known truths. In order to fully understand a parable, one must bee able to discern the knowledge that is beneath the surface, while accepting that the simple, straightforward story (without what it may symbolize) does not teach falsehood.

Paul didn't know how he went to third heaven/paradise but he was sure he went there and he believed access to this realm is possible - in body or out of body. The later means that someone can leave a body (and stay awake). According to Paul it's possible.

Very good point. I've never seen this example mentioned before. I'm curious about your beliefs concerning the Third Heaven and how you equate it to Paradise. Do you see the existence of a third heaven as implying that there is also a first and a second heaven?

1 Cor 15:50-57 is about expecting the Kingdom of God to come soon (in the time of then generation). Those who will be dead when this happens, will be resurrected and become immortal and incorruptible (sinless). Those who will be alive will not have to die and be resurrected but they will be changed when alive, so they will also become immortal and incorruptible. No heaven and discarnate spirits here. It's about Kingdom of God on earth.

Agreed.

Paul said "that flesh and blood cannot inherit..." because in the Kingdom you put on a different body - spiritual body that isn't able to die and sin (by logic: consequence of sin is death).

True. Whenever the phrase "flesh and blood" is used in the scriptures (there are no exceptions that I can find), it is used as a metaphor for "mortal man" as opposed to a resurrected being. It doesn't really have anything to do with literal flesh or with literal blood.

What do you believe the resurrection will be like? Do you believe that the "spiritual body" you speak of will have a physical form of some sort or that it will be spirit only?

 

[Katzpur]

And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” (John 9:2)

What about that? Very different from the "tabula rasa" theory. Sounds more like belief in reincarnation.

And how do you explain that verse? Since you're a Christian, it would not follow that you believe in reincarnation. So how is it possible that the man in question could have sinned prior to his birth?

 

[Deeje]

We know that parables have a symbolical meaning but the signifier itself is based on some facts and actual beliefs. The richman and Lazarus wouldn't be depicted in some place after death if there wasn't such a belief. If in a parable a plant grows from seed is this also a natural fact.

The “death” of each of these men in this case, I believe is a complete finish of the status of each class of people, and finding themselves trading places. This is exactly what happened. It is not God speaking in this instance, but Abraham. Do you know why?

The rich man was not said to be wicked, nor was the beggar said to be righteous, in order to have these opposite judgments.

The beggar symbolized the “lost sheep” to whom Jesus was sent, and the rich man symbolized the wealthy Pharisees who didn’t give a hoot about those “sinners”, whilst being sinners of the worst kind themselves.

Belief in ‘heaven and hell’ is NOT a Christian concept, nor is it a Jewish idea. You will not find any reference to an “immortal soul” in the Bible. The two words do not appear side by side in any verse of scripture.
The later Jews adopted the idea of souls going to ‘heaven or hell’ from the Greeks, as did the later Christians. It is a common theme in all non-Christian religions, and it became accepted by the "weeds" who appeared later on, as Jesus said.

The Hebrew Scriptures do not mention heaven as a destination for humans at all.....because the ancient Jews had no concept of life after death. They believed in physical resurrection.....that Messiah would come and establish his kingdom on earth and raise those who were sleeping in “Sheol” (which was the grave. Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10) In fact Jesus’ own apostles expressed that belief even as Jesus was ascending to heaven. They asked if he was going to establish his kingdom at that time. (Acts 1:6)

The resurrection, in their understanding, was entirely physical. (All resurrections performed in the first century were back to their former human life on earth. John 11:11-14)

The anointing of Jesus’ disciples with holy spirit at Pentecost instilled a strong desire in them to go to heaven, giving them what Paul called a “heavenly calling”. (Hebrews 3:1) Since these will rule with Christ in heaven, not all who are his disciples are chosen for that role. (kings and priests. Revelation 20:6)

Paul didn't know how he went to third heaven/paradise but he was sure he went there and he believed access to this realm is possible - in body or out of body. The later means that someone can leave a body (and stay awake). According to Paul it's possible.

If Paul was not sure of where he was transported to in this vision, then there is no point in speculating about it. All we know is that he remained in the flesh until his physical death.

 

[Deeje]

Continued...

1 Cor 15:50-57 is about expecting the Kingdom of God to come soon (in the time of then generation). Those who will be dead when this happens, will be resurrected and become immortal and incorruptible (sinless). Those who will be alive will not have to die and be resurrected but they will be changed when alive, so they will also become immortal and incorruptible. No heaven and discarnate spirits here. It's about Kingdom of God on earth.

Yes, the coming of the kingdom would be seen as immanent because no matter what time period you lived in, you had to establish a good name with God. The book of life contains the names of all the "righteous" dead from the time of Abel. Obedience to God and his laws was always the requirement. When Christ came, he revealed more of the "sacred secret" that gradually unfolded to his disciples. (Mark 4:11; Colossians 1:26)

One aspect of the sacred secret was the heavenly resurrection for a chosen "few" who would be 'kings and priests' with Jesus. This is the "bride of Christ". (Revelation 21:1-4) Since all who go to heaven are now sinless, they do not need to be priests for one another. And in their capacity as kings or rulers, they need subjects, which will be on earth, where God put us in the first place.

But all would sleep in death until Christ’s return. Paul would “sleep” in death with all the other 'chosen ones' until Christ’s return. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17) Though they will be resurrected "first".

Those alive when when he does manifest to the world will not need to “sleep” in the grave, so they will leave their human flesh behind and be transformed immediately into spirit bodies in order to join Jesus in heaven.

Paul said "that flesh and blood cannot inherit..." because in the Kingdom you put on a different body - spiritual body that isn't able to die and sin (by logic: consequence of sin is death).

This only applies to those who are chosen for a heavenly assignment. Humans and angels are not immortal, even though they have opportunities to live forever. Right from the start, continued life was dependent on obedience to God’s commands. (Genesis 3:22-24)

Immortal means you cannot die, so only God can grant immortality to those he has chosen to rule with Christ. He never intended either angels or humans to be immortal.....both are subject to death if they disobey God by misusing their free will.....like satan and Adam.

 

[Deeje]

Continued...

And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” (John 9:2)

Jesus answered that question.....“Neither this man sinned nor his parents, but it was so that the works of God might be made manifest in his case.” (John 9:3) So neither this man nor his parents were guilty of a specific error or sin that caused his blindness. Rather, as a result of Adam’s sin, all humans are born imperfect and are subject to defects, such as blindness. But the man’s blindness provides an opportunity for Jesus to demonstrate the works of God, as he has done at other times in healing he sick and deformed.
Please remember that the Jews to whom Jesus preached had been exposed to the "leaven" of the Pharisees for a long time.

What about that? Very different from the "tabula rasa" theory. Sounds more like belief in reincarnation.

There is no support at all in scripture for reincarnation. There is nothing to indicate that we had any kind of past life before our human birth or that we flit off to some kind of ‘spiritual waiting room’ at death. The Bible indicates that we are created at conception, (a blank canvas) and that we actually die and sleep in death when our physical organism ceases to breathe. When the spirit (or last breath) leaves the body all thought processes cease. (Psalm 146:4)

The "geography" of afterlife:

Sheol = Hades = underworld

The grave. Under the dirt. No conscious existence in sheol. (Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10)
Those in hades come out. (Revelation 20:13) These then experience a period of judgment. (John 5:28-29)

Gehenna = Tartarus = hell

Gehenna = eternal death. A place where “souls” are “destroyed”, not tortured. (Matthew 10:28) A place for incorrigibly wicked people like the Pharisees in Jesus’ day...and those who oppose God’s incoming kingdom. Those whose names are not in “the book of life” having made no name for themselves with God.

Tartarus = the spiritual restraint that the rebel angels in Noah’s day experienced. No one else is in Tartarus.

Shamayim = Paradise = heaven(s)

The first paradise was here on earth. In God’s original purpose for this earth and humankind upon it, there was no natural cause of death. Therefore if humans had never sinned, they never would have died. Death was only the penalty for disobedience.....

We are all designed to live in an earthly paradise, free from suffering, ageing, sickness and death. So we should not mistake our desire to live in paradise with a desire to go to heaven. That was never God’s purpose for our existence. We are placed here with all of God’s qualities to be be caretakers of his earth. Life was never supposed to be like we have it now. Sin unleashed all the negatives that God attempted to shield his children from. They chose to know good and evil for themselves and we have been suffering ever since.

I have a great hope for all things to go back to the way God intended it to be in the beginning.....(Isaiah 55:11)
I believe God wants us all to be there....but we have to make the right choices now about who and what to believe.

That is how I see it.

 

[PearlSeeker]

I'm curious about your beliefs concerning the Third Heaven and how you equate it to Paradise. Do you see the existence of a third heaven as implying that there is also a first and a second heaven?

What do you believe the resurrection will be like? Do you believe that the "spiritual body" you speak of will have a physical form of some sort or that it will be spirit only?

And how do you explain that verse [John 9:2]? Since you're a Christian, it would not follow that you believe in reincarnation. So how is it possible that the man in question could have sinned prior to his birth?

Paul equates third heaven to paradise. Yes, I think it implies there are more heavens. The Hebrew word shamayim is in fact a plural noun ("heavens"). Bible also mentions "the highest of heavens" (or "heaven of heavens") and different ranks of angels in heavens ...

I believe human spirit in some non-physical or less physical form is only in the waiting state for the next (full) bodily life. A different question is the change in expected "end times" ("harvest time", coming of Kingdom). Human relations and society will change but also bodies ...

I'm Christian (Catholic) but I don't believe in religious monopolism, dogmatism, fanclub rivalism ... Until I'm in this life and don't know anything about prebirth or afterlife I'm open to different views - yes, also reincarnation. It seems more in favour of learning and universal justice.

The verse in question could imply that at least some Jews might believed so. There was hellenistic Judaism with strong Greek influence ... The Jewish doctrine of reincarnation emerged much later in Middle Ages.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Ecclesiastes 12:7.Ecclesiastes 12:14. Hebrews 9:27. I have the thinking of a jw witness so I say the answer is no.What do you think?

We are spirit. That is what it is to be born again in Faith from flesh into the Spirit of Christ.

The flesh amounts to nothing it is the Spirit that gives life.

Regards Tony

 

[PearlSeeker]

The Hebrew Scriptures do not mention heaven as a destination for humans at all.....because the ancient Jews had no concept of life after death. They believed in physical resurrection...

Old books don't mention resurrection either (Sadducees kept this old belief). Resurrection was intruduced in Second Temple period. Yes, belief in immortality of soul is even later.

We are all designed to live in an earthly paradise, free from suffering, ageing, sickness and death. So we should not mistake our desire to live in paradise with a desire to go to heaven. That was never Gd’s purpose for our existence. We are placed here with all of God’s qualities to be be caretakers of his earth.

I agree. That's why I believe heavenly state is only interim.

 

[moorea944]

Old books don't mention resurrection either (Sadducees kept this old belief). Resurrection was intruduced in Second Temple period. Yes, belief in immortality of soul is even later.


I agree. That's why I believe heavenly state is only interim.

What old books are you talking about? OT? Because they did know about the resurrection. David knew, job, prophets, etc. Adam and Eve should have know that too.

 

[PearlSeeker]

What old books are you talking about? OT? Because they did know about the resurrection. David knew, job, prophets, etc. Adam and Eve should have know that too.

Not all OT ofcourse. Only older part. Torah, Ecclesiastes... Belief in resurrection is in later books - Isaiah and Daniel.

 

[Katzpur]

Paul equates third heaven to paradise. Yes, I think it implies there are more heavens. The Hebrew word shamayim is in fact a plural noun ("heavens"). Bible also mentions "the highest of heavens" (or "heaven of heavens") and different ranks of angels in heavens ...

I believe human spirit in some non-physical or less physical form is only in the waiting state for the next (full) bodily life. A different question is the change in expected "end times" ("harvest time", coming of Kingdom). Human relations and society will change but also bodies ...

I'm Christian (Catholic) but I don't believe in religious monopolism, dogmatism, fanclub rivalism ... Until I'm in this life and don't know anything about prebirth or afterlife I'm open to different views - yes, also reincarnation. It seems more in favour of learning and universal justice.

The verse in question could imply that at least some Jews might believed so. There was hellenistic Judaism with strong Greek influence ... The Jewish doctrine of reincarnation emerged much later in Middle Ages.

Fascinating. I agree with almost all of what you've said, but I'm genuinely surprised to hear that you're a Catholic. That doesn't sound much like Catholic theology to me, not that it matters in the slightest. It sounds like you've given all of this quite a bit of thought.

 

[moorea944]

Not all OT ofcourse. Only older part. Torah, Ecclesiastes... Belief in resurrection is in later books - Isaiah and Daniel.

Why do you feel that it's only in later books and not of all scripture? Just curious. What's the reason for that? I just dont see that at all. But no worries. You also mentioned the Torah and Ecclesiastes, were you saying that resurrection wasnt before that? Not quit sure what you were saying there.... Because in the book of Genesis, people like Abraham believed in resurrection too dont forget. Look at the promises that he was given and we are also involved in through faith and baptism.

 

[allright]

Paul wrote in prison he was torn between staying here to encourage and help Christians or to dpart and be with the Lord
which is far better,

Why would he be torn if the choice was staying here and helping Christian or rotting in the ground

 

[Deeje]

Old books don't mention resurrection either (Sadducees kept this old belief). Resurrection was intruduced in Second Temple period. Yes, belief in immortality of soul is even later.

God’s servants have always believed in the resurrection. Abraham, who lived 2,000 years before Jesus was born as a human, when asked to sacrifice his son, the Bible says: “He reckoned that God was able to raise him [his son Isaac] up even from the dead.” (Hebrews 11:17-19)
His main reason for being so willing to offer up his son was because of his belief in the resurrection.

Later God’s servant Job asked: “If an able-bodied man dies can he live again?” In answer to his own question, Job said to God: “You will call, and I myself shall answer you.” Job showed that he believed in the resurrection. (Job 14:14-15)

Elijah and Elisha both resurrected children. (1 Kings 17:17-24; 2 Kings 4:32-37)

When Jesus Christ was on earth, he explained: “That the dead are raised up even Moses disclosed, in the account about the thornbush, when he calls Jehovah ‘the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob.’ He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living, for they are all living to him.” (Luke 20:37-38)

The resurrection is so sure that God doesn’t see the dead as gone....just as Jesus said, it is like they are merely “sleeping”.

Lazarus’ sister expressed belief in the resurrection (John 11:24).....and Jesus raised her brother back to his former life. If he had gone to a better place, why bring him back only to die again?

Peter and Paul both performed resurrections.

In the Christian Greek Scriptures the word “resurrection” is used more than 40 times....so the resurrection of the dead is a main Bible teaching for Jews and Christians. (Hebrews 6:1-2)

I agree. That's why I believe heavenly state is only interim.

There is no interim “heavenly state” mentioned in the scriptures. The dead are dead. Why is that so hard for people to accept? Where were we before our parents conceived us? We simply didn’t exist.

Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10...
“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun......Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, [sheol] where you are going.”

Do you see what has died?.....not just their body but their emotions...even love, has “perished”. How is that possible if the person lives on in another form? They cannot work, plan, or utilize their acquired knowledge or wisdom in the grave. Nothing of that person survives....not even the memory of them. Do you know your great, great, great, great grandparents? Even if you know their name, you have no memory of them. Fortunately for us, God remembers every one of them.

“But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death. 21 For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence.” (1 Corinthians 15:20-23)

If Jesus is the “firstfruits” (or the first one to experience physical death but a spiritual resurrection,) where did all those of pre-Christian times go when they died? If they sleep in their graves, there is no need to invent places for them to go.

There is order in the resurrection......and some are resurrected before others. The “first resurrection” is for the those chosen to rule with Christ, but even these were not to be raised until his return. (Revelation 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)

All the dead were to “sleep” until God’s purpose for this earth had been completed. Once the kingdom is established on earth, then the general resurrection of the dead can take place. (John 5:28-29)

Scripture has to back up what you believe...or else what is it that you are believing?

This is what the Bible teaches about the resurrection, as a whole IMV.

 

[Deeje]

Paul wrote in prison he was torn between staying here to encourage and help Christians or to dpart and be with the Lord
which is far better,

Why would he be torn if the choice was staying here and helping Christian or rotting in the ground

Along with their anointing with holy spirit, those with the "heavenly calling" (chosen by God for rulership roles in the kingdom. Revelation 20:6; Hebrews 3:1; 1 John 2:20) are given an inordinate desire to go to heaven. Since not all Christians receive this anointing, it has to override their natural desire to remain on earth with family and friends. It is for most humans, an unnatural desire. We are programmed to live in paradise (not heaven)....and who can deny our desire for beautiful and peaceful surroundings? Every paradisaic location on earth is a tourist Mecca. We want to be in that setting even for a short vacation. It is where God put humans in the beginning....and it was designed to be our permanent, self sustaining home.

The situation for Paul and other anointed ones was being torn between their 'heavenly calling' and their earthly duties as representatives of Christ on earth, promoting the good news about his Kingdom to others. (1 Peter 3:3-4; Revelation 14:1-3; Galatians 4:6-7)

That is how I understand the scriptures.