Do you trust God?

[CG Didymus]

That is exactly what I am doing. Having fun with a person who claims the earth but does not have any evidence to support it.

So, now we have another "messenger", "manifestation", or "avatar"? Mirzā Ghulām Ahmad, Baha'u'llah, and now Meher Baba? Trailblazer is right. God is communicating with us. I wonder how many more messengers there are out there? Oh yeah, I think Maitreya is here on Earth somewhere too. And here's his website and this is what it says...

mission of maitreya, eternal divine path
one world, one humanity, one savior, one god​

Yeah, ah... trust God? And all we can know about God is through his messengers? Okay, I wonder which one?

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes, I trust God. I believe as you do that there is just One God and that His Guidance has been reliably community through Great Teachers within different traditions throughout human history. That guidance has provided the straight path, not that I always walk that path as I should.

How's things going down under and off to the side? Does that get me to New Zealand? Anyway, same old problems. Trusting in what religious writings say about God. Which writings from which religions have been reliable and trustworthy to tell us the truth about God?

If I were a Baha'i, I'd say maybe the Quran and for sure the Baha'i writings. If I were a Christian, I'd say only the New Testament and the books that Christians call the Old Testament. Then Judaism has their Bible. But what about Hinduism and Buddhism? Are any really considered "reliable" by Baha'is? And you know the problem there. Some Scriptures have multiple Gods or no Gods. So, even though they might have great spiritual teachings in them, and might be considered as "Scripture" to certain sects in Hinduism and Buddhism, how do Baha'is see them?

 

[CG Didymus]

Maybe soothsayers type religion is more for you, to them, everyone goes to heaven and is forgiven and life is just a lesson to learn from.

Most people hate the truth of hell. It's the hardest concept to accept and so Quran approaches it from multi-angles, to prove it, and reply to all sorts of objections people can have of it and proves it furthermore about it.

Hell is severe punishment and torture, the pain is unknown to us, but it's greater then any pain we can imagine.

There you go. Some religions are "trusting" God will send believers to heaven and evil, non-believers to hell. Then Baha'is come along and say that is wrong... that hell is not a literal place. So, how can what some people say about God be trusted? It changes from religion to religion.

 

[Trailblazer]

Fair enough. Maybe it shouldn't be said that he CAN'T do anything, but that he refuses to.

I would not put it quite like that but rather I would say that He chooses not to. After all, an 'omnipotent God' only does what He chooses to do.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209

 

[CG Didymus]

Do you think that applies to everyone, or you have to believe in that brand of God first? In other words, do you need to belong to the Club before you can trust the boss to guide you through life with my best interest in mind?

ciao

- viole

Baha'is send people off to faraway places to spread the word kind of like how Christians sendoff missionaries. So, if the Baha'is are correct, the Christian is giving those people a false message. Like the typical Christian interpretation about God as being a Trinity. To a Baha'i, that is wrong. And Christians believe a poor sinner needs to be saved from their sin. The beliefs are way different.

So, the poor Christian missionary, putting his "faith" and "trust" in God, goes off to some jungle tribe and get speared to death. He was trusting a misconception of God, according to Baha'is. So, some people are trusting wrong beliefs. And then going off to convert others to those beliefs? I wonder how many tribal people have been converted to maybe several Christian sects, and then converted by a Baha'i missionary?

 

[Trailblazer]

Is not that a bit too much,? 15,00 what? Tablets are made of clay. Did Bahaollah write on 15,000 clay tablets? If God can write on stone with his mind, he certainly does not need hands or legs. But, still, for your all-mighty God, it is not possible to communicate with people without a translator. Is not that surprising? That is what I said, you have a limited-power edition of God.

God has all power so God could do all the things that some atheists say He should do but God chooses not to do them. God never does anything He does not want to do. Why would He? Nobody can make an omnipotent God do anything.

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 284

 

[CG Didymus]

Loving God is different than trusting God. I cannot honestly say I love God but I trust God

Thanks for starting a great thread. Lots of interesting posts. For you, though, that one hidden word about God love can't reach you unless you love him... Can you do that? I don't trust any of the concepts of God, so how can I love something that I can't really believe in. But you trust the Baha'i concept of God and know you have to love God for his love to reach you. What do you do?

 

[sun rise]

And Sun, your own author disclaimed it. You should check it up.

He did not disclaim it. The article offered various perspectives over time about the meaning of the statement. It's an discussion not an opinion.

The problem being you have not understood the so called names of God is actually attributes in the Qur'an

I'm not going to dispute your own sense of that expression, but أَسْمَاءُ ٱللَّٰهِ ٱلْحُسْنَىٰ‎ ʾasmāʾu llāhi l-ḥusnā, "Allah's Beautiful Names" is what I've most often seen but I'll accept that the word "attributes" is more precise. So if you prefer that al Hallaj said that he was one of the attributes of Allah, the statement remains and the controversy remains.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes I read that, but there are no facts or information there, just grandiose claims.

There are BOTH claims and evidence in that post. The claims are not the evidence. The evidence is who Baha'u'llah was and what He did on His mission in order to back up His claims. As Jesus said, Ye shall know a prophet by his fruits.

The facts and information is who He was and what He did on His Mission, including what He wrote.

 

[Sheldon]

There are BOTH claims and evidence in that post.

Nope. only claims for evidence.

The claims are not the evidence.

Precisely my point.

The evidence is who Baha'u'llah was and what He did on His mission in order to back up His claims.

That is a claim, not evidence?

As Jesus said, Ye shall know a prophet by his fruits.

Allegedly, since we have zero objective evidence Jesus said anything at all, but even if we had his DNA on a signed affidavit saying that..so what? A claim, even by someone everyone wants to believe is a deity, is still just a claim.

The facts and information is who He was and what He did on His Mission, including what He wrote.

Great, but all I read were claims, no facts or information? Now I grant you a claim can contain facts and information, but in this case they did not. I could replace his name with mine in your posts, would it become evidence that I am a prophet from a deity?

 

[Trailblazer]

The problem of hiring it out...

The problem with doing it Himself, instead of hiring it out to the Messengers was explained by Baha'u'llah on numerous occasions, not the least of which is this passage:

“That the Manifestations of Divine justice, the Day Springs of heavenly grace, have when they appeared amongst men always been destitute of all earthly dominion and shorn of the means of worldly ascendancy, should be attributed to this same principle of separation and distinction which animateth the Divine Purpose. Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness. How, then, can the godly be differentiated under such circumstances from the froward?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 71-72

 

[Sheldon]

“That the Manifestations of Divine justice, the Day Springs of heavenly grace, have when they appeared amongst men always been destitute of all earthly dominion and shorn of the means of worldly ascendancy, should be attributed to this same principle of separation and distinction which animateth the Divine Purpose. Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness. How, then, can the godly be differentiated under such circumstances from the froward?”

Seriously, that is meaningless word salad? What on earth are the random capital letters for exactly? I've noticed theists and religious apologists using random capital letters before, what on earth are they hoping to convey? Like putting a full stop in the middle of a sentence. And then capitalising words like and, but or because? What the...

 

[Trailblazer]

Thanks for starting a great thread. Lots of interesting posts.

Thanks. Actually, I did not think the thread was going to take off like this, it was just something I wanted to share, my thoughts and feelings.

For you, though, that one hidden word about God love can't reach you unless you love him... Can you do that?

No, I cannot do that and that is probably why God's love cannot reach me.

I don't trust any of the concepts of God, so how can I love something that I can't really believe in. But you trust the Baha'i concept of God and know you have to love God for his love to reach you. What do you do?

I really believe in God, but belief is different than love. I trust God, as I said in the OP, but that is not the same as love.

Frankly, I do not like the Baha'i concept, that we have to love God in order for God's love to reach us. That is a pretty petty God that cannot love us first. I like the Christian concept better, that God comes running after us. The problem is that I believe the Baha'i concept because it makes more sense and seems to be exactly how it actually plays out in the real world. In other words, those who do love God feel loved by God and those who don't love God do not feel loved by God.

 

[Trailblazer]

I love the words of Jesus

I love all the words of Jesus and turn to them frequently.

Matthew 24:35
King James Version

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

 

[Trailblazer]

Hell is severe punishment and torture, the pain is unknown to us, but it's greater then any pain we can imagine.

It is not as if Baha'u'llah did not indicate that there is a hellish state, He indicated that there is one. However, we cannot know exactly who it is reserved for. Personally, I believe it is reserved for this who commit evil deeds, not for nonbelievers.

“Know thou that every hearing ear, if kept pure and undefiled, must, at all times and from every direction, hearken to the voice that uttereth these holy words: “Verily, we are God’s, and to Him shall we return.” The mysteries of man’s physical death and of his return have not been divulged, and still remain unread. By the righteousness of God! Were they to be revealed, they would evoke such fear and sorrow that some would perish, while others would be so filled with gladness as to wish for death, and beseech, with unceasing longing, the one true God—exalted be His glory—to hasten their end.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 345

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you think that applies to everyone, or you have to believe in that brand of God first? In other words, do you need to belong to the Club before you can trust the boss to guide you through life with my best interest in mind?

ciao

- viole

No, I do not think that anyone has to belong to any Club for God to guide them, although those who are more open to being guided will get more guidance, because if they are fighting God God will generally leave them alone, although He will still love them and care about them.

 

[Dawnofhope]

How's things going down under and off to the side? Does that get me to New Zealand? Anyway, same old problems. Trusting in what religious writings say about God. Which writings from which religions have been reliable and trustworthy to tell us the truth about God?

If I were a Baha'i, I'd say maybe the Quran and for sure the Baha'i writings. If I were a Christian, I'd say only the New Testament and the books that Christians call the Old Testament. Then Judaism has their Bible. But what about Hinduism and Buddhism? Are any really considered "reliable" by Baha'is? And you know the problem there. Some Scriptures have multiple Gods or no Gods. So, even though they might have great spiritual teachings in them, and might be considered as "Scripture" to certain sects in Hinduism and Buddhism, how do Baha'is see them?

Its going well in New Zealand thanks CG. We’re doing a good job managing COVID here. 49 deaths so far out of a population of over 5 million. I’ve been busy administering the Pfizer Covid vaccine. The Baha’i Faith is very positive about medical science so its a satisfying service to the community.

You have identified six religions who each have their unique scriptures. Baha’is would consider the Baha’i writings, Quran, New Testament and Hebrew Bible to be reliable. Buddhist and Hindu scriptures we would not compare to the Abrahamic Faiths in regards the authenticity and reliability of their respective scriptures.

It is important to understand what we mean by reliability in regards scriptures. Reliability in regards scripture predominantly concerns its capacity to act as a moral and spiritual guide. In that sense all the scriptures are reliable. Areas such as historical accuracy and providing informed commentary about the nature and structure of the universe, there are of course problems. Baha’is would not see Jesus as literally rising from the dead. We would agree that Buddhist scriptures downplay metaphysical questions about the existence and nature of God or gods. Hindu scriptures on the other hand can contribute to diverse and contradictory worldviews that allow for monotheism, polytheism or atheism.

Then there are questions about who authored each sets of scriptures and under what circumstances.It is a huge topic for discussion. Baha’i acknowledge the Divine origins of all six religions you have mentioned and see great value in the scriptures associated with each one.

 

[Sheldon]

It is not as if Baha'u'llah did not indicate that there is a hellish state, He indicated that there is one. However, we cannot know exactly who it is reserved for. Personally, I believe it is reserved for this who commit evil deeds, not for nonbelievers.

“Know thou that every hearing ear, if kept pure and undefiled, must, at all times and from every direction, hearken to the voice that uttereth these holy words: “Verily, we are God’s, and to Him shall we return.” The mysteries of man’s physical death and of his return have not been divulged, and still remain unread. By the righteousness of God! Were they to be revealed, they would evoke such fear and sorrow that some would perish, while others would be so filled with gladness as to wish for death, and beseech, with unceasing longing, the one true God—exalted be His glory—to hasten their end.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 345

I cannot comprehend how anyone can think torturing anyone is ever acceptable, let alone forever, it is one of the most barbaric ideas humans have imagined, and according to the bible we owe it to "gentle Jesus, meek and mild" for this particular idea.

A deity that offers "free will" to love me as much as I need, OR ELSE.

No thanks, even were such a deity real, I'd have to decline such an "offer". Thankfully there is not one shred of any objective evidence for any deity. So one day it will be "hello darkness my old friend", and I came to terms with that many years ago. Oddly enough I contemplated my mortality first even before I hit puberty, and many times since sadly, but it is the price of admission for this ride.

Instead of wasting time navel gazing, and looking forward to the "next life" make the most of this one, and the people in it, before they're gone.

 

[Trailblazer]

Great, but all I read were claims, no facts or information? Now I grant you a claim can contain facts and information, but in this case they did not. I could replace his name with mine in your posts, would it become evidence that I am a prophet from a deity?

This is all about how you view what you read. Clearly, the claims are separate from the evidence that supports the claims. The facts an information are contained in the various books I cited. Below is a synopsis of what I posted in that post.

Baha’u’llah’s Two Bold Claims

All of which leads us back to Baha’u’llah, who made two very bold claims. First, he declared he was God’s messenger for the next one thousand years, having the same divine authority, the same Holy Spirit, the same divine power, as Moses, Christ, Muhammad, and the other founders of the major world religions:

Baha’u’llah made a second and even more challenging claim. He declared he was the promised world messiah foretold in all the prophecies, in all the holy books, of all the religions of the world – the one promised to come on the Day of Judgment, the Day of God, the Time of the End, the End of the World, to establish the kingdom of God on Earth.
https://bahaiteachings.org/what-did-bahaullah-teach?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Below is a list of the primary categories of evidence that support the claims above.

1. His character (His qualities).

That can be determined by reading about Him in books such as the following:
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4

2. His Revelation is what He accomplished (His Mission on earth, i,e., the history of the Baha'i Faith).

That can be determined by reading about His mission in books such as the following:
God Passes By (1844-1944)
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892.

3. His Writings which can be found in books that are posted online: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

4. Baha'u'llah fulfilled all the Bible prophecies that refer to the return of Christ and the promised Messiah. That proves to me He was the Messiah and the return of Christ. Those prophecies and how they were fulfilled are delineated in the following book:
William Sears, Thief in the Night

5. Baha'u'llah predicted many events that later came to pass. Some of these predictions and how they came to pass are listed and delineated in this book: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

 

[Trailblazer]

Seriously, that is meaningless word salad? What on earth are the random capital letters for exactly? I've noticed theists and religious apologists using random capital letters before, what on earth are they hoping to convey? Like putting a full stop in the middle of a sentence. And then capitalising words like and, but or because? What the...

The Capital Letters refer to anything that is related to God or the Manifestations of God (Messengers of God).
So I always say He when referring to God or Jesus or Baha'u'llah.

All that would have been word salad for me for most of the 51 years I have been a Baha'i, since I did not understand it, but now that I have read the entire book called Gleanings cover to cover at lest five times and have been explaining the meaning of certain passages to people on forums, I understand what it means.