Do you trust God?

[RestlessSoul]

That will be a backward step. It is with questions and inquiry, we have reached at this stage.

What exactly have we reached? A universal culture of rampant materialism, and a civilisation on the brink of extinction due to our greed and mendacity. Access to iPhones and better medicine has to be balanced against H bombs and the mass extinction of species. I’d say we could do with all the divine assistance we can access.

 

[firedragon]

My question is 'Why Bahais term the notes by Bahaollah as tablets?'

Because Bahaullah wrote in Arabic and I explained the meaning to you. Nevertheless, my theory on why people love the word tablet is because it sounds mystical, or Bahai's are unaware of the language which is very common. Yet, I remember in one of their websites they had an arabic to English translation in which someone who knew arabic has done it. So its not like they are void of their scriptural knowledge.

 

[Sheldon]

There is no contradiction. I cannot understand God directly but I can understand God from what Baha'u'llah wrote about God.

Of course there was a contradiction, that much is manifest, and this typical post ad hoc shifting of the goalposts is pretty tedious. You cannot claim no can understand something, then make claims about it.

What you call claims are derived from what Baha'u'llah wrote about God.

I don't care who writes the claim, only what objective evidence can be demonstrated for it. lending credence to claims because of who wrote them, is obviously irrational, as it is an appeal to authority fallacy.

 

[Sheldon]

Some time ago I posted the claims of Baha’u’llah and the facts and information that support the claims on this thread:

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

Yes I read that, but there are no facts or information there, just grandiose claims.

Below is what Baha’u’llah wrote about evidence that establishes the truth of His claims. More specifically, Baha’u’llah enjoined us to look at His own Self (His character), His Revelation (His works, which can be seen in Baha'i history), and His words (His Writings).

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.”

There is not one fact or any objective evidence there, it's word salad of course, but leaving aside the woolly verbosity, it is just a string of unevidenced assertions.

Take this for example:

The fact that Baha'u'llah fulfilled all the Bible prophecies is like icing on the cake. That proves to me He was the Messiah and the return of Christ.

That is a bare claim, what prophesies, and how do they evidence anything?

 

[Kenny]

That's beautiful Ken. I can always count on Christians to remind me about God's Love even though I have a very difficult time believing that God is loving, given all the suffering I have endured and given all the suffering in the world.

Yes... there is suffering.

I am reminded of what Paul said, " He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?"

Then I remind myself that Jesus suffered unjustly because of mankind, suffered for me, suffered for love and that If God sent the best, I can trust him

In other words, I need all the help I can get. I STILL struggle, in spite of what my religion teaches about God's Love.

And not that I don't ever struggle, it is just the battle field of and in my mind. So I have to let His words have ascendency over my thoughts.

I love the words of Jesus

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Matthew 6:28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field,how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: 29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much moreclothe you, O ye of little faith? 31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for yourheavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. 33 Butseek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. 34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself.Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

Be encouraged, my friend and be strengthened... God is with you and for you.

 

[Colt]

Do you trust God?

Loving God is different than trusting God. I cannot honestly say I love God but I trust God. I not only know for certain that God exists, I know that God has my best interests in mind and is guiding me through life.

I have gone through hell to finally come to this realization. Hell in the Baha’i Faith is not a place we go when we die. It is distance from God, and we can be in hell in this life as well as in the next life.

I am sure I will have more tests but I hope I do not have to go back to hell again.

55. O Son of Being!
Busy not thyself with this world, for with fire We test the gold, and with gold We test Our servants.
The Hidden Words of Baha'u'llah

“… the Almighty hath tried, and will continue to try, His servants, so that light may be distinguished from darkness, truth from falsehood, right from wrong, guidance from error, happiness from misery, and roses from thorns. Even as He hath revealed: “Do men think when they say ‘We believe’ they shall be let alone and not be put to proof?” 5 “
Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 8-9

Is God loving? I do not ‘believe’ that God is loving given all the suffering in this world but I think I am probably wrong and God is loving in spite of all the suffering. Personally, I do not really care if God is loving, as it matters more to me that I can trust God. If there was no God I would have no hope, but I trust that whatever happens is God’s Will and I try to accept it day by day. That is all I can do.

I live only in the present day. I have no plans for the future. If I think about the future I have so much anxiety I want to die since so many things in my life are hanging out in mid-air and I cannot even imagine how they will ever get resolved. The only hope I have is trusting that God will be there to help me when I need Him.

Yes, I trust God and I love God. Gods' way will always be the right way. I trust Gods loyal subordinates.

 

[Kenny]

I repeatedly prayed to God for help as a small child and asked him to stop my mother from beating the holy crap out of me. Of course, I didn't use those exact words at the time, but that's exactly what happened to me. Well, all of my desperate prayers to a "loving merciful heavenly father" went unanswered, and the physical abuse (as well as other forms of abuse and neglect) continued throughout my childhood and adolescence, and the abuse didn't stop until I moved out of our house when I was 18 years old.

Personally speaking, there was a time when I would have preferred God to help me and at least feel like I was deserving of his love and protection. But those days are long gone. I've wasted 31 years of my life trying to hold onto that false hope, but I've finally let it go, and I'm better off without it. I feel at peace now that I'm no longer holding onto the desperate belief that God will save me.

I am so sorry that happened to you. I suppose we all have a history with something along those lines.

Personally, I have reconciled my past within the context of the words in the Bible. I am sure we both have learned from experience of what not to do in our own lives.

My position is simply we weren't made to be puppets on a string and free will is still a mitigating factor. Sometimes it is the footsteps in the sand that we don't understand.

 

[Sheldon]

I am reminded of what Paul said, " He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?"

Then I remind myself that Jesus suffered unjustly because of mankind, suffered for me, suffered for love and that If God sent the best, I can trust him

I don't think demanding a blood sacrifice is love, even if it involves a family member, and the I find the idea of vicarious redemption repugnant. We are responsible for our own mistakes, and the idea of shifting that onto another is morally repellent to me. As of course is the idea that there is no crime or action that can't be forgiven with an act of contrition and rewarded with an eternity of bliss. While paradoxically a decent person who tries to live a good life, and simply doesn't hold the correct belief in the correct deity from the many thousands humans have imagined, will be tortured forever after they die.

 

[cataway]

I don't think demanding a blood sacrifice is love, even if it involves a family member, and the I find the idea of vicarious redemption repugnant. We are responsible for our own mistakes, and the idea of shifting that onto another is morally repellent to me. As of course is the idea that there is no crime or action that can't be forgiven with an act of contrition and rewarded with an eternity of bliss. While paradoxically a decent person who tries to live a good life, and simply doesn't hold the correct belief in the correct deity from the many thousands humans have imagined, will be tortured forever after they die.

some people do have silly ideas

 

[Link]

Do you trust God?

Loving God is different than trusting God. I cannot honestly say I love God but I trust God. I not only know for certain that God exists, I know that God has my best interests in mind and is guiding me through life.

I have gone through hell to finally come to this realization. Hell in the Baha’i Faith is not a place we go when we die. It is distance from God, and we can be in hell in this life as well as in the next life.

I am sure I will have more tests but I hope I do not have to go back to hell again.

55. O Son of Being!
Busy not thyself with this world, for with fire We test the gold, and with gold We test Our servants.
The Hidden Words of Baha'u'llah

“… the Almighty hath tried, and will continue to try, His servants, so that light may be distinguished from darkness, truth from falsehood, right from wrong, guidance from error, happiness from misery, and roses from thorns. Even as He hath revealed: “Do men think when they say ‘We believe’ they shall be let alone and not be put to proof?” 5 “
Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 8-9

Is God loving? I do not ‘believe’ that God is loving given all the suffering in this world but I think I am probably wrong and God is loving in spite of all the suffering. Personally, I do not really care if God is loving, as it matters more to me that I can trust God. If there was no God I would have no hope, but I trust that whatever happens is God’s Will and I try to accept it day by day. That is all I can do.

I live only in the present day. I have no plans for the future. If I think about the future I have so much anxiety I want to die since so many things in my life are hanging out in mid-air and I cannot even imagine how they will ever get resolved. The only hope I have is trusting that God will be there to help me when I need Him.

Maybe soothsayers type religion is more for you, to them, everyone goes to heaven and is forgiven and life is just a lesson to learn from.

Most people hate the truth of hell. It's the hardest concept to accept and so Quran approaches it from multi-angles, to prove it, and reply to all sorts of objections people can have of it and proves it furthermore about it.

Hell is severe punishment and torture, the pain is unknown to us, but it's greater then any pain we can imagine.

 

[Kenny]

I don't think demanding a blood sacrifice is love, even if it involves a family member, and the I find the idea of vicarious redemption repugnant. We are responsible for our own mistakes, and the idea of shifting that onto another is morally repellent to me. As of course is the idea that there is no crime or action that can't be forgiven with an act of contrition and rewarded with an eternity of bliss. While paradoxically a decent person who tries to live a good life, and simply doesn't hold the correct belief in the correct deity from the many thousands humans have imagined, will be tortured forever after they die.

Yes, I do suppose people can look at the same evidence and come to a totally different conclusion.

I agree that we are responsible for our own mistakes. Yet, as a parent, I absorb so many of the mistakes of my children. Love gives, love sacrifices, love has an action and love is willing to lay down his life for another.

To say that there is no crime or action that can't be forgiven with an act of contrition is basically to say we don't need a prison on this earth.

Who determines what is decent?

But, regardless, one person's junk is another persons treasure.

I find the thought that God is no longer outside of time and suffering but actually reduced Himself to a human being to experience pain, lack, suffering, and every other human sentiment and being innocently crucified so that I may find forgiveness and a hope in a time of need quite exhilarating and comforting.

That He, in His resurrection, actually empowered me to live life as God wanted and to be united with a God of Love has produced in me peace and joy whereas before I was a mess.

But, like I said, for one person it may stink but to another it is a fragrance.

 

[Audie]

Well, that just leaves a simple question:

Has God ever spoken to you?

 

[Sheldon]

some people do have silly ideas

Well I don't begrudge theists those. As long as they don't try to force them on others.

 

[viole]

Loving God is different than trusting God. I cannot honestly say I love God but I trust God. I not only know for certain that God exists, I know that God has my best interests in mind and is guiding me through life.

Do you think that applies to everyone, or you have to believe in that brand of God first? In other words, do you need to belong to the Club before you can trust the boss to guide you through life with my best interest in mind?

ciao

- viole

 

[syo]

Do you trust God?

Yes.

 

[sun rise]

• Who wrote it?

• How does that "mean" I am God?

...There is no authenticity to this. Absolutely none. Even in the Sufi traditions.

Cmon sunrise. You have better analytical skills than this.

You don't like my referring to a web site which expresses my understanding? That's your privilege, of course. I express myself in a way which I think best.

Who wrote it? I'm not sure what you are looking for but I don't know who first literally wrote it down. I know the traditional history but not the first to write that down..

How does that "mean" I am God when it literally means "I am the truth"? The link is in the Quran. I assumed you would know this but to make it explicit, one of the 99 Names of Allah is:

ٱلْحَقُّ \ الحقّ
الحق
ʾal-Ḥaqq al-Haqq The Truth/ Reality/ the Only One Certainly Sound and Genuine in Truth 6:62, 22:6, 23:116, 24:25

Logically since one of the Names of Allah is "Truth", al-Haqq, then if someone claims "I am the Truth" they are claiming one of the Names of Allah and in effect saying "I am that Truth and have become one of the names of Allah".

If you want to dispute saying "I am a name of Allah" leads to in effect saying "I am Allah (in human flesh)", have at it. Controversial statements by people are always subject to dispute.

 

[sun rise]

Sometimes it is the footsteps in the sand that we don't understand.

Footprints In The Sand (Poem, Images, PDF, Tattoos) - that's something that speaks to me.

 

[firedragon]

You don't like my referring to a web site which expresses my understanding? That's your privilege, of course. I express myself in a way which I think best.

But you didnt see me saying that your own "website" which is actually a huge publication says that it was a "later understanding" and that it was a 20th century publication, where the author himself in 1984 added refutation to etc etc etc.

Strange you missed that really.

How does that "mean" I am God when it literally means "I am the truth"? The link is in the Quran. I assumed you would know this but to make it explicit, one of the 99 Names of Allah is:

ٱلْحَقُّ \ الحقّ
الحق
ʾal-Ḥaqq al-Haqq The Truth/ Reality/ the Only One Certainly Sound and Genuine in Truth 6:62, 22:6, 23:116, 24:25

See, there are 99 attributes to God in the so called Asma ul husna, and an Indian publication in the 20th century made an association just to one of them which says simply "God is speaking truth" and some man saying "he is speaking truth" means he is God which as far fetched as it can get, and is not from the Quranic times, but from the 20th century, especially when that man who you are claiming is God or is an "avatar" is "DEAD" means what you want it to mean is quite absurd. And Sun, your own author disclaimed it. You should check it up.

If you want to dispute saying "I am a name of Allah"

The problem being you have not understood the so called names of God is actually attributes in the Qur'an and post hoc justifying a false assumption based on a poet who disclaimed it himself is quite a stretch.

 

[CG Didymus]

I find this very funny -- there have been "His communication" since humans could first make their own thoughts understood by other humans. And yet, for some utterly mysterious reason, this God that is claimed to have been able to write with his own finger on stone, has never managed to make write anything down in a way that couldn't be broken and/or lost.

No, sadly, this "all-powerful" deity has to rely on mere humans to do this most important work for him.

When I look at such claims, I cannot help but think that they are not the result of solid, rational thinking.

It's right there in black and white. If you were an Israelite a few thousand years ago and committed a sin, you'd know that you better get yourself an unblemished lamb and take it down to the Temple and have the priests chop it and burn it up as a sacrifice to God. But then... how much of the Bible do Baha'is take literally? So, the supposed communication is there, but was it really what God said and what God wanted?

Then, not so many hundreds of years ago, if a person was an Aztec, they would believe in several Gods. And to make sure everything kept going, like the Sun rising in the sky, the Aztecs knew that the Sun God needed human blood. So, somebody's heart had to be cut out to made sure the Sun God was happy. Now how did the Aztecs know this? I would imagine that somehow the Sun God communicated this to them. Or maybe, the Aztec religious leaders made it up?

But speaking of blood... some people even today believe that God needs a blood sacrifice to atone for sin. Luckily, this God sent His Son down to pay that penalty by being crucified, so no longer do people have to pay the price or to sacrifice some poor animal to keep this God happy.

But we all know with the coming of Baha'u'llah, everything has changed. He has given us new laws and new ways to appease the God. And has given us new interpretations of those old communications from the God and told us, basically, that those old messages weren't meant to be taken literally. Like poor old Abraham, I can't believe he seriously thought God wanted him to kill his son. Luckily, God stopped him just in time.

I wonder why the Sun God didn't stop the Aztecs from killing people and offering their blood up to whom they thought was the real God? Or, better yet, have the real God communicate the truth to those poor Aztecs... that the Sun God is not real... And that He, the real God, didn't need blood anymore, because He had already taken care of that by having His Son killed. If people only listened.

 

[CG Didymus]

I suppose He could if He wanted to, but why should God write when He can hire it out?

The problem of hiring it out...

God speaking, "Son, I want you to go down to Earth and tell my people what I want them to do." Jesus, "Okay Dad." On Earth Jesus says, "I tell you truly, this is what my Father wants..." Jesus goes through a list of things. The people, "What was that again? And are we supposed to be taking notes?" Jesus, "Don't worry about it. Tomorrow I'll give pretty much the same talk on a hillside. And... there will be a free lunch. So, bring your friends and family. I hope you all like bread and some small fish."

The people, "Did you remember that one thing he said? I forgot already. I think one of us should write this stuff down. It might be useful someday." "Don't worry about. So, we paraphrase it a little bit. Who's going to know the difference?" "Yeah, but I think we should spice it up a little. You got any ideas?" "Sure, a few miracles maybe. Like parting the seas or something?" "Hmmm? You know if we spice it up, we could make this story into a best seller. Let me talk to my cousin Luke. He's a doctor and a really good writer."