Do you trust God?

[CG Didymus]

Well, everybody says that. People believing in X must believe that the message of Y, where X and Y are not equal, must be wrong. For all X and all Y. They all have their prophets, their prophecies, their miracles, and yet they believe in mutually contradicting god.

There is no greater defeater of theism than theism itself.

Ciao

- viole

The Baha'i Faith has done such a good job at doing away with those apparent contradictions. They say "originally" all messengers of all religions taught the same truth. But then, the message got distorted and changed. So, God sent a new messenger. He set things straight again... For a while. Then that message got screwed up. Finally, in this day, God figured out. "What if I have my messenger write the message down himself". Now, finally, we can trust what the message is from God. It has been written down by the messenger himself. And he says that all the other messages were true, then got messed up, but he's here to give us all the true message, so all those old messages, and their apparent contradictions, can be disregarded. They do have some truth in them, but it is mixed in with some BS. And, he says, he'll tell us what is the truth in those messages and what is BS. But his message is definitely all truth.

So, no more contradictions. Theism is alive and well. All you have to do is believe this new X has superseded all the previous X's and Y"s. Easy right?

 

[Trailblazer]

I have no need to ask you. I don't hanker after the 'eternal life carrot' shown by the religious to the ignorant and superstitious people, or care to be near or distant to an imaginary entity (God). I have already had an interesting 80-year life full of pleasures and sorrows that I have waded through. And that is enough.

FWIW, I have no hankering for an afterlife either, nor to be close to God, but if I see Him I will have some things to take up with Him.

 

[Trailblazer]

So, children dying of bone cancer are also guided by your God, who will lead them with only their best interest in mind?

ciao

- viole

I never said that children dying of bone cancer are guided by God. That was simply their fate, not their choice, but God still has their best interest in mind.

 

[Trailblazer]

But it's the same between religions. A Christian can say the Bible is evidence of God.

The Bible is evidence for God, but it is not the best evidence. The Revelation of Baha'u'llah is the best evidence..

Then those same Christians make everything about the Baha'i Faith false based on what they believe the Bible teaches.

You mean based on their interpretation of what the Bible teaches, which is incorrect according to what Baha'is believe the Bible teaches.

Then Atheists look at both of you and ask, "This invisible God of yours... how do you even know he is real? It all could have been made up."

It could have been but think about why anyone would make up the Bible and the Revelation of Baha'u'llah. Everything is motivated by something. What would have been the motive?

 

[Aupmanyav]

I'd be interested in knowing how you can accept the Hindu faith and identify as an atheist?

It is quite simple, EtuMalku. A religion consists of two parts 1. Social rules and 2 Belief. I acceept the traditional social rules of Hindus (that is 'Dharma', responsibilities and duties. As for the other part, Beliefs, I believe the existence of only one 'not-God' entity, that is 'physical energy'. All things in the universe, humans, animals, vegetation and non-living entities, are made up of that only. We term that as 'Brahman'. This is known as 'Advaita' (Non-duality). Now 'physical energy' does not need to be worshiped. I am nothing else other than 'physical energy'. I am not a 'God', I cannot worship myself. So, I remain an orthodox Hindu in perfect step with science without accepting the existence of any God/Gods/Goddesses. This philosophy is not new, it has always been with Hindus. As for what is time, energy and space are, and how did they come up; science does not have all the answers but is working on that.

 

[Aupmanyav]

But then, they come in with their own new laws.

They do not come up with a new law, they come up only with a new messenger (Manifestation in their parlance), who must be accepted. Peace and love have always been part of all religions. Actually they are beyond any religion - they are social rules. Religions only plagiarize them, claim them as their own inventions. Did not Jesus and Mohammad talk about love for your fellow human beings?

 

[Aupmanyav]

FWIW, I have no hankering for an afterlife either, nor to be close to God, but if I see Him I will have some things to take up with Him.

Then, as a Bahai, you are a covenant breaker.

 

[Bree]

Do you trust God?

Loving God is different than trusting God. I cannot honestly say I love God but I trust God. I not only know for certain that God exists, I know that God has my best interests in mind and is guiding me through life.

I have gone through hell to finally come to this realization. Hell in the Baha’i Faith is not a place we go when we die. It is distance from God, and we can be in hell in this life as well as in the next life.

I am sure I will have more tests but I hope I do not have to go back to hell again.

55. O Son of Being!
Busy not thyself with this world, for with fire We test the gold, and with gold We test Our servants.
The Hidden Words of Baha'u'llah

“… the Almighty hath tried, and will continue to try, His servants, so that light may be distinguished from darkness, truth from falsehood, right from wrong, guidance from error, happiness from misery, and roses from thorns. Even as He hath revealed: “Do men think when they say ‘We believe’ they shall be let alone and not be put to proof?” 5 “
Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 8-9

Is God loving? I do not ‘believe’ that God is loving given all the suffering in this world but I think I am probably wrong and God is loving in spite of all the suffering. Personally, I do not really care if God is loving, as it matters more to me that I can trust God. If there was no God I would have no hope, but I trust that whatever happens is God’s Will and I try to accept it day by day. That is all I can do.

I live only in the present day. I have no plans for the future. If I think about the future I have so much anxiety I want to die since so many things in my life are hanging out in mid-air and I cannot even imagine how they will ever get resolved. The only hope I have is trusting that God will be there to help me when I need Him.

I trust God and I trust that God loves mankind enough to allow his own son to die in our behalf.

John 3:16 For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son,+ so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.+ 17 For God did not send his Son into the world for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him.+

And if you do trust God, you can trust that everlasting life will become a reality because that is what he has promised.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then, as a Bahai, you are a covenant breaker.

No, just because I will have come things to take up with God that does not make me a Covenant Breaker. I have a right to my own thoughts and feelings.

 

[EtuMalku]

It is quite simple, EtuMalku. A religion consists of two parts 1. Social rules and 2 Belief. I acceept the traditional social rules of Hindus (that is 'Dharma', responsibilities and duties. As for the other part, Beliefs, I believe the existence of only one 'not-God' entity, that is 'physical energy'. All things in the universe, humans, animals, vegetation and non-living entities, are made up of that only. We term that as 'Brahman'. This is known as 'Advaita' (Non-duality). Now 'physical energy' does not need to be worshiped. I am nothing else other than 'physical energy'. I am not a 'God', I cannot worship myself. So, I remain an orthodox Hindu in perfect step with science without accepting the existence of any God/Gods/Goddesses. This philosophy is not new, it has always been with Hindus. As for what is time, energy and space are, and how did they come up; science does not have all the answers but is working on that.

Uhmmm . . . that doesn't sound simple LOL!

 

[EtuMalku]

It is quite simple, EtuMalku. A religion consists of two parts 1. Social rules and 2 Belief. I acceept the traditional social rules of Hindus (that is 'Dharma', responsibilities and duties. As for the other part, Beliefs, I believe the existence of only one 'not-God' entity, that is 'physical energy'. All things in the universe, humans, animals, vegetation and non-living entities, are made up of that only. We term that as 'Brahman'. This is known as 'Advaita' (Non-duality). Now 'physical energy' does not need to be worshiped. I am nothing else other than 'physical energy'. I am not a 'God', I cannot worship myself. So, I remain an orthodox Hindu in perfect step with science without accepting the existence of any God/Gods/Goddesses. This philosophy is not new, it has always been with Hindus. As for what is time, energy and space are, and how did they come up; science does not have all the answers but is working on that.

Is your idea of Dharma defined as behaviors considered to be in accord with some cosmic law and order or something else? If so then, in my opinion, that would also fall under 2) Belief

 

[CG Didymus]

The Bible is evidence for God, but it is not the best evidence.

Or... it's great evidence for Atheism.

Everything is motivated by something. What would have been the motive?

We only talk about the few major religions. But everybody had a religion. I think the people made them up. And I'm fine calling them myth. The myths of the Hebrews included fire and brimstone raining down on Sodom and Gomorrah. The ten plagues against Egypt. During which Moses' cane turned into a snake. Then Jonah living inside a big fish for three days. Oh, and of course, Noah's flood. It could very well all be religious myth. We have for sure two manifestations in those stories, Moses and Abraham. Did they write anything? But after they are long since gone, the Bible stories about the Israelite people continues to be written.

Then we have the NT. Baha'is believe in the virgin birth, but do they believe in the wandering star and angels appearing to the shepherds? The gospel writers weren't there. Those birth stories could easily have been made up. Then who made up the story of Jesus rising from the dead? Call it "metaphorical", but, if not true, I'd call it myth.

Maybe the Baha'i writings are true, but there's several things I question about Baha'i claims and beliefs... Mainly the fulfillment of prophecies and progressive revelation. So, is quantity of material important? Yeah sure, pretty impressive. But are we impressed by the quantity of the various Hindu Scriptures? Probably you and I couldn't understand what they're talking about. And with the writings of Baha'u'llah, they get kind of confusing too. And, if we take out all the flowery, poetic language, how many pages of writing would be left?

Anyway... it is ironic that we are talking about myth and religion as Christmas day comes to an end. People make up religious BS all the time.

 

[CG Didymus]

Then, as a Bahai, you are a covenant breaker.

Or... maybe she's a Baha'i atheist but just doesn't know it yet?

 

[CG Didymus]

I trust God and I trust that God loves mankind enough to allow his own son to die in our behalf.

John 3:16 For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son,+ so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.+ 17 For God did not send his Son into the world for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him.+

And if you do trust God, you can trust that everlasting life will become a reality because that is what he has promised.

That would be meaningful if Baha'is took the Bible literally. But they don't. They probably have more trust in the Quran than the Bible. But, of course, the Baha'i writings are what they believe is God's word for today.

But, while you're here, what do JW's believe about the tribulations and if and when Jesus returns? And, getting back to the Baha'is, you know that they believe their prophet, Baha'u'llah, was the promised return of Christ. And he came and went more than 150 years ago. Any way that's true and you missed him?

 

[Trailblazer]

Or... maybe she's a Baha'i atheist but just doesn't know it yet?

No CG, I am a Baha'i who sometimes wants to be an atheist and I do know it.

 

[Bree]

That would be meaningful if Baha'is took the Bible literally. But they don't. They probably have more trust in the Quran than the Bible. But, of course, the Baha'i writings are what they believe is God's word for today.

But, while you're here, what do JW's believe about the tribulations and if and when Jesus returns? And, getting back to the Baha'is, you know that they believe their prophet, Baha'u'llah, was the promised return of Christ. And he came and went more than 150 years ago. Any way that's true and you missed him?

We believe what the bible says about the tribulations. The time period called 'Last Days' was foretold by Christ. A time of war, food shortages, earthquakes and pestilences all happening simultaneously around the world and we beleive we entered this time period beginning in 1914.

In that year, the very first world war broke out. It was the first time in history all nations were involved in the same conflict. But what brought about this first war was also foretold 2,000 years earlier. The apostle John wrote the book of Revelation and in it he describes a war in heaven that had lasting effects on earth.

Rev 12:7
“And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: ‘Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! . . . Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.’

this 'short period of time' will be marked by events spoken of in Jesus prophecy about the 'last days'
Matthew 24:3
While he was sitting on the Mount of Olives,+ the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence+ and of the conclusion of the system of things?”+
4 In answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads you,+ 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many.+ 6 You are going to hear of wars and reports of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for these things must take place, but the end is not yet.+
7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom,+ and there will be food shortages+ and earthquakes in one place after another.+ 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.

We are now living in the 'last days' and very soon will see a 'conclusion' to this system of things.
what awaits us on the other side is something too wonderful to imagine.
Revelation 21:3-4 explains whats coming next.

 

[Trailblazer]

Or... it's great evidence for Atheism.

The Bible is not evidence for atheism, but it is a good reason for atheism.

Maybe the Baha'i writings are true, but there's several things I question about Baha'i claims and beliefs... Mainly the fulfillment of prophecies and progressive revelation.

I know that, but have you ever considered that you just don't understand what progressive revelation is supposed to be and that maybe you don't see how Baha'u'llah fulfilled the prophecies?

So, is quantity of material important? Yeah sure, pretty impressive. But are we impressed by the quantity of the various Hindu Scriptures? Probably you and I couldn't understand what they're talking about. And with the writings of Baha'u'llah, they get kind of confusing too. And, if we take out all the flowery, poetic language, how many pages of writing would be left?

As far as scriptures are concerned I think pertinence to this age is the most important thing to consider and after that quality and quantity.

Anyway... it is ironic that we are talking about myth and religion as Christmas day comes to an end. People make up religious BS all the time.

Christmas is just another day for me, except that I make a big turkey dinner and it just now went in the oven because I got up late and I have been busy in this forum and others all day.

 

[Aupmanyav]

No, just because I will have come things to take up with God that does not make me a Covenant Breaker. I have a right to my own thoughts and feelings.

You think you will have an audience with your God? That is blasphemy. You are not careful about what you say. Bahaollah never said that, nor his heirs said so. Stop being a covenant breaker.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Uhmmm . . . that doesn't sound simple LOL!

Well, that is your view. It cannot be simpler than that.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Is your idea of Dharma defined as behaviors considered to be in accord with some cosmic law and order or something else? If so then, in my opinion, that would also fall under 2) Belief

No. It pertains to my society. No God involved in this. I do not go beyond what science says, and at the moment they do not go beyond saying that probably the universe began as a ball of intense energy. There theories about how this ball came about to be.

"The universe began, scientists believe, with every speck of its energy jammed into a very tiny point. This extremely dense point exploded with unimaginable force, creating matter and propelling it outward to make the billions of galaxies of our vast universe."
Origins: CERN: Ideas: The Big Bang | Exploratorium