Do you trust God?

[lukethethird]

Do you trust God?
Do you trust beliefs?

 

[viole]

I never said that children dying of bone cancer are guided by God. That was simply their fate, not their choice, but God still has their best interest in mind.

Well, apparently, no matter what calamity we can invoke, that would be in our best interest. Tautologically. For, God cannot allow anything which is not in our best interest.

So, if I buy a gun and shoot the first kid I see, i did nothing which was not in the best interest of that kid, and her parents? Correct?

ciao

- viole

 

[PureX]

Do I trust in God?

Yes, because I have to trust in something greater than myself.

 

[viole]

The Baha'i Faith has done such a good job at doing away with those apparent contradictions. They say "originally" all messengers of all religions taught the same truth. But then, the message got distorted and changed. So, God sent a new messenger. He set things straight again... For a while. Then that message got screwed up. Finally, in this day, God figured out. "What if I have my messenger write the message down himself". Now, finally, we can trust what the message is from God. It has been written down by the messenger himself. And he says that all the other messages were true, then got messed up, but he's here to give us all the true message, so all those old messages, and their apparent contradictions, can be disregarded. They do have some truth in them, but it is mixed in with some BS. And, he says, he'll tell us what is the truth in those messages and what is BS. But his message is definitely all truth.

So, no more contradictions. Theism is alive and well. All you have to do is believe this new X has superseded all the previous X's and Y"s. Easy right?

Well, I wonder why it took so long for God to realize that. I mean, it does not take a genius to see how things will unfold if you leave it up to the unavoidable Chinese whisper effect that prophets will suffer. That is particularly strange in case of omniscience. Maybe He took a long spiritual siesta while people were killing each other because of His suboptimal information policy.

now, why doesn’t He make it vast more simple, if He is really into all of us believing in the same Him? Or Her?

Just pick up a spiritual microphone and broadcast your message to all humanity, as every almighty being should be able to do hands down, instead of relying on middle men who usually adduce as much evidence of having witnessed God, as having witnessed bigfoot.

ciao

- viole

 

[EtuMalku]

No. It pertains to my society. No God involved in this. I do not go beyond what science says, and at the moment they do not go beyond saying that in most probability the universe began as a ball of intense energy. There theories about how this ball came about to be.

"The universe began, scientists believe, with every speck of its energy jammed into a very tiny point. This extremely dense point exploded with unimaginable force, creating matter and propelling it outward to make the billions of galaxies of our vast universe."
Origins: CERN: Ideas: The Big Bang | Exploratorium

Which brings up the Hard Question . . . where was this tiny point of jammed energy located before it exploded into becoming our physical universe?

Regarding your Dharma, are you saying that you simply obey the laws of physics? I think we all do that despite what belief system we have.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Which brings up the Hard Question . . . where was this tiny point of jammed energy located before it exploded into becoming our physical universe?
Regarding your Dharma, are you saying that you simply obey the laws of physics? I think we all do that despite what belief system we have.

I obey the laws of my society (that is 'dharma'), the universe acts in its own way.
Probably we have a wrong concept of existence and non-existence. It is limited by our perception. Quantum Mechanics has no problem about 'creatio ex-nihilo'. And the Hindu scriptures pointed to it 3,000 years ago. What if they are just two phases of 'what exists'?

"sato bandhumasati niravindan hṛ(i)di pratīṣyākavayo manīṣā ll"
Sages who searched with their heart's thought discovered the existent's kinship in the non-existent.
Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 10: HYMN CXXIX. Creation. Verse 4.

 

[CG Didymus]

I know that, but have you ever considered that you just don't understand what progressive revelation is supposed to be and that maybe you don't see how Baha'u'llah fulfilled the prophecies?

In progressive revelation does each new message from each new messenger abrogate the previous one? Does it account for the evolution or "progression" of spiritual thought and beliefs within a religion? Does it account for Scriptures being written without there being a manifestation to bring a new message? Who exactly is on the list of manifestations? And why are all the manifestation/incarnations in Hinduism ignored except for Krishna?

Why is what causes some civilizations to advance goes against their religion? And then, by the time a religion does start to spread, often times it is because of the false beliefs that have already been added into the original message. So, I think "progressive" revelation is too simplistic of an explanation.

You are correct. I don't see how. The Bab and Baha'u'llah fulfilled the prophecies. One problem is do we even trust the Scriptures from where those prophecies are taken? Especially with Kalki and Maitreya. But that would include the Bible and the NT also. Like Revelation... Some guy named John had this vision and then wrote it all down? He remembered all the details correctly. Same with Daniel... When was it written? Then the problem of people taking things out of context and using them as prophecies. Like "For unto us a child is born"? and "The virgin will have a son". Or... "Woe, woe, woe". The contexts that surround those verses don't fit, so doesn't that matter?

Then the context surrounding all the verses that are made to mean 1260 lunar years. Each one of those is talking about something different. Each, in the context, begins and ends at different times. But each is made to start with the Hegira in 621 and end in 1844. The start of prophecies in Daniel are made to fit with the desired ending date. One of them clearly says that from the time of the stopping of the daily sacrifice to the reconsecration of the Temple there will be 2300 evenings and mornings. But it is made to start in 457BC with a decree to rebuild Jerusalem. Another one in Daniel, the 1335 days, is made... actually it is mangled...

During a table talk, 'Abdu'l-Baha states that Daniel's 1335 days are solar years after the Hejira (622 AD). Esslemont performs the simple calculation, arriving at 1957

In "God Passes By", Shoghi Effendi changes the calculation to point to the years 1959 and 1963. He does so by starting at 1863 and using lunar years.

(There is another adjustment made to Abdul Baha's statement) This interpretation of Daniel agrees with the Guardian's result (1963) but differs from the Guardian's math. 'Abdu'l-Baha, in this passage, incorrectly uses solar years to come to 1963 (1957 is the result), and rejects the use of lunar years, which the Guardian used along with literal days. Note that, in verifying 'Abdu'l-Baha's target of 1963, Shoghi Effendi used calculations that 'Abdu'l-Baha ruled out.
​

Here's the Baha'i explanation...

While it is clear that the prophecy concerning the 1,335 days is associated with the spread of the Bahá'í Faith throughout the world, several different dates are given in our authoritative texts for the actual fulfilment of this prophecy. As mentioned earlier, the two Tablets of the Master which are cited in "The Passing of `Abdu'l-Bahá", page 31, suggest different dates for the fulfilment of the prophecy of the 1,335 days: 1963 and 1957. Further, in the letters written by or on behalf of Shoghi Effendi, the Guardian indicates that these same Tablets form the basis for his interpretation of the date of the fulfilment of the 1,335 days referred to in Daniel. Three different dates are either given by the Guardian or can be inferred from these same Tablets -- 1957, 1960, and 1963...
​

Okay, now I see how prophecies are fulfilled.

 

[CG Didymus]

Maybe He took a long spiritual siesta while people were killing each other because of His suboptimal information policy.

The Universe is a big place to try and manage. He goes off somewhere to deal with something else and comes back and a thousand years have passed. How does he fix things? Of course, one time he sent his son. I think that created more problems than it fixed. But this time God got it right. How can there be any misunderstanding? He sent two messengers. He had them write down the rules and had an official line of succession put in place, so the religion wouldn't get broken into a bunch of sects. The message is clear... "Believe in me... That God has sent me. Get rid of your weapons and live in peace. Here's the rules. Live by them and all will be well."

Oops, he was thrown in jail. Okay, plan B. God is going to let all sorts of disasters happen until the people of the Earth turn to this new message and believe in his new messenger. Okay, so that must mean that if we believe, there will be no more disasters?

 

[viole]

The Universe is a big place to try and manage. He goes off somewhere to deal with something else and comes back and a thousand years have passed. How does he fix things? Of course, one time he sent his son. I think that created more problems than it fixed. But this time God got it right. How can there be any misunderstanding? He sent two messengers. He had them write down the rules and had an official line of succession put in place, so the religion wouldn't get broken into a bunch of sects. The message is clear... "Believe in me... That God has sent me. Get rid of your weapons and live in peace. Here's the rules. Live by them and all will be well."

Oops, he thrown in jail. Okay, plan B. God is going to let all sorts of disasters happen until the people of the Earth turn to this new message and believe in his new messenger. Okay, so that must mean that if we believe, there will be no more disasters?

Does God operate by trial and error?

ciao

- viole

 

[CG Didymus]

Does God operate by trial and error?

ciao

- viole

Well, it's complicated. God knows what is going to happen, but he wants to give us a choice on what will happen. Like with Adam... God knew that Adam was going to eat the forbidden fruit, but wanted Adam to have a chance to do the right thing and not eat it... But knowing all the time he would eat it. Naturally, God had no choice but to curse him.

So, now we've seen how the religions of the past messed up God's message. But God wanted us to mess it up, so he'd have a reason to send another messenger. With Baha'u'llah he's put in place those things that would keep us from messing up the message in the same ways. Now if we want to mess it up, we'll have to come up other new, more inventive ways.

However, there is still many of the old tried and true things that get most people not to believe in the new messenger. Like ambiguous prophecies that maybe were fulfilled? But then... maybe not. The Promised One is supposed to bring peace this time? Well, not exactly. If we would have believed in his messenger, there would have been peace. Because we, for the most part, rejected him, we will go through lots of hard times until we see the "light" and turn to him.

Of course, God knew his messenger would be rejected, but to be fair, he did give us a choice. And we chose to reject him, and now the world is heading towards chaos. Just like God predicted. It's all so simple and obvious.

 

[Trailblazer]

You think you will have an audience with your God? That is blasphemy. You are not careful about what you say. Bahaollah never said that, nor his heirs said so. Stop being a covenant breaker.

In case you did not notice I was just joking, I was not serious....
Nobody will ever SEE God, not even in the afterlife/spiritual world.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, apparently, no matter what calamity we can invoke, that would be in our best interest. Tautologically. For, God cannot allow anything which is not in our best interest.

So, if I buy a gun and shoot the first kid I see, i did nothing which was not in the best interest of that kid, and her parents? Correct?

Nope, everything that is predestined/fated by God is in our best interest, but what we choose to do with our own free will is not always in our best interest. Murdering someone is not in our best interest but God allows it since we have free will.

 

[Trailblazer]

In progressive revelation does each new message from each new messenger abrogate the previous one?

No, I do not believe that a new Messenger abrogated the previous ones in the past, but the Revelation of Baha'u'llah is an exception because it did abrogate all the revelations that preceded it.

Does it account for the evolution or "progression" of spiritual thought and beliefs within a religion? Does it account for Scriptures being written without there being a manifestation to bring a new message?

No, progressive revelation does not account for those things, as that is not what progressive revelation is about.

Who exactly is on the list of manifestations? And why are all the manifestation/incarnations in Hinduism ignored except for Krishna?

I do not know every since Manifestation on the list, only the main ones. Krishna is the main one of Hinduism and I do not believe there were others although these might have been.

Why is what causes some civilizations to advance goes against their religion? And then, by the time a religion does start to spread, often times it is because of the false beliefs that have already been added into the original message. So, I think "progressive" revelation is too simplistic of an explanation.

Progressive revelation does not explain any of these things and it NEVER intended to. Simply put, this is what progressive revelation is all about; no more, no less.

Progressive revelation is a core teaching in the Baháʼí Faith that suggests that religious truth is revealed by God progressively and cyclically over time through a series of divine Messengers, and that the teachings are tailored to suit the needs of the time and place of their appearance.[1][2] Thus, the Baháʼí teachings recognize the divine origin of several world religions as different stages in the history of one religion, while believing that the revelation of Baháʼu'lláh is the most recent (though not the last—that there will never be a last), and therefore the most relevant to modern society.[1]
Progressive revelation (Baháʼí) - Wikipedia

You are correct. I don't see how. The Bab and Baha'u'llah fulfilled the prophecies.

And you probably never will, but that does not mean that they did not fulfill them. What you see is only what you see, it is just a personal opinion. We all have personal opinions.

Since there is no way you can prove they did not fulfill the prophecies it is just the way that you interpret them that makes you think they didn't, but I cannot make you understand this, not anymore than I can make any Christian understand it.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Nope, everything that is predestined/fated by God is in our best interest, .. Murdering someone is not in our best interest but God allows it since we have free will.

If it is predestined, then free will does not matter. Good that your God allows rape and murder to prove the point.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. but the Revelation of Baha'u'llah is an exception because it did abrogate all the revelations that preceded it.

And you talk of peace, diversity and brotherhood with that?

 

[KWED]

Do you trust God?

That depends on which god you are talking about.
However, most gods have shown that they can be dishonest, or at least deliberately misleading so no, one cannot assume they are necessarily trustworthy.

 

[KWED]

As far as I know, there is only one God, although there are many human conceptions of God.

So which of those many human conceptions is the one true god, and how do you know?
More importantly, why are all those who disagree with you and favour a different god wrong, and how do you know this?

 

[KWED]

It is not God's fault people don't read and understand His communication. That responsibility falls on humans.

So you accept that you might have not read or understood god's communication and might be following a false god, not the One True God?

 

[KWED]

God can only DO what is within His nature to do.

I can only do what is within my nature to do.
Therefore I am as omnipotent as god is.
Cool!

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Do you trust God?

Do I trust God to run the universe? Yes.

Do I trust God to take care of me? No. In my life experience, God does not necessarily provide even the basics of food and housing. And yes, things do happen that are more than we can handle--I've ended up in the psych ward because life became too painful.