Do you trust God?

[EtuMalku]

KWED said: ↑
But you know what the true god is because your religion tells you what it is.

Not quite. I know what the true God is because Baha'u'llah explained that in His Writings

Do you really not see the circular logic here, you just disagreed and then stated exactly what KWED said. Wow . . .

 

[Trailblazer]

The problem you have is that your "independent investigation" is just confirmation bias through propaganda.

The problem you have is that you do not know a damn thing that I did and yet you arrogantly speak for me as if you know how I lived my life.

My independent investigation was an independent investigation and I had NO confirmation bias since I had nothing to confirm, since I had no preexisting beliefs.

Confirmation bias, also called confirmatory bias or myside bias,[Note 1] is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms one's preexisting beliefs or hypotheses, while giving disproportionately less consideration to alternative possibilities.[1]
Confirmation bias - Wikipedia

Any independent, critical analysis of the information suggests that Baha'u'llah was either making it up or delusional.

Oh, have you done an independent critical analysis of the Baha'i Faith? When did you do that?

At the very most, it leaves the issue 50/50. On that basis, it is irrational to insist that he is actually a messenger of a god that you still have no evidence for.

Please show me where I ever insisted upon anything. All I ever did was say what I believe. I could not care less what other people choose to believe as we all have free will to choose our beliefs or non-beliefs.

I have evidence, you just don't consider it evidence. That is not my problem.

(Please don't say "but Baha'u'llah was his messenger, so he must exist", we are rapidly running out of circles)

STRAW MAN. Please stop misrepresenting what I said. I never said that.

 

[Trailblazer]

And how do we know god appointed him as messenger?
Correct, because Baha'u'llah told us.
Classic circular reasoning.

STRAW MAN . Please stop misrepresenting what I said.
How many times have I said the following on this forum? Dozens of times.

I do not believe that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger because He claimed to be a Messenger of God.
The way I determined that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger was by investigating the truth of His claims.

“Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men.”
Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 8

Yes, we know there is evidence he told us. His writings.
The problem you have is that there is no evidence that his writings are true.

STRAW MAN .
I never said the evidence that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God is that He told us that He is a Messenger of God. How many times do I have to repeat this?

No, there is no proof that His Writings are true, all we have is the evidence that indicates the truth of His claims.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Not quite. I know what the true God is because Baha'u'llah explained that in His Writings.

I would like to correct your sentence. You do not know any God. You only know what Bahaollah said about his God/Allah. So, it will be better if you say that you 'believe' and not 'know' about God. And you believe that what Bahaollah said is true - you yourself do not know it for sure. If Bahaollah was not true and was lying, you are basically a goner, you have wasted your life (51 years as you mention). Therefore, it is best to think for yourself and not believe so wholly on what others say.

 

[CG Didymus]

Krishna is mythology. Bhagawat Gita was written by an unknown person perhaps around Jesus' time (may be a few centuries earlier or later). There are interpolations done by people in the following time. The main message is to perform one's duty (even if it involves a war with relatives) unhesitatingly.

Bahais do not want us to believe in many Gods, do not want us to worship idols, do not want us to eat pork (I do not know that for sure), allow first or second cousin marriage that is prohibited in Hinduism, do not want us to give women equal status and want us to consider LGBTQ as aberrations. Of course, my atheist Hinduism which does not accept God or any messenger would be an anathema to them. We are poles apart.

Then that is another strike against the Baha'i beliefs about "progressive" revelation. It sounds very much like the Gita is like the Bible. Stories written about the past as if they were true. The Bible has Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses. All people that Baha'is believe were real, but the stories about them fictional.

So, Baha'is do the same with Hinduism. Who can they get to be the God sent manifestation to support their belief about God sending a messenger to each major religion? Who else could they have possibly chosen but Krishna? But does he fit? Is he even real? For Baha'is that isn't that important. They just need to have a name that can put out there to represent all of Hinduism.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Then that is another strike against the Baha'i beliefs about "progressive" revelation. It sounds very much like the Gita is like the Bible.

Who else could they have possibly chosen but Krishna? But does he fit? Is he even real? For Baha'is that isn't that important. They just need to have a name that can put out there to represent all of Hinduism.

BhagawadGita has no stories, it only has the writers' (?) advice. It has some 700 2-line stanzas in 18 chapters terme as "shlokas" (PIE root 'su̯er-', to hear, answer or swear, Shloka - Wikipedia). Even the word 'answer' is from that root, Old Frisian or Russian - svara (Indo-European Lexicon: PIE Etymon and IE Reflexes).

There are many others, but why not choose the biggest? That was their idea. An you are right, they just needed a name. Other than that, they had nothing to do with Krishna. As I have already said Krishna is Hindu mythology and there is no proof that he was a historical person.

 

[Trailblazer]

Neither does it detract from mine.

You have no omnipotence, only God is omnipotent.

Why is god not subject to his own moral framework?
(I know he isn't, I mean all the killing and suffering and evil he inflicts on the world. He really seems like a sociopath)

Please show me where God ever inflicted any killing and suffering and evil on the world.

By what standard? You have already admitted that he doesn't abide by the morality that he imposes on us.

God does not have to live up to any human standards. God is all-good by His nature.
God is not subject to the Laws that He reveals for humans to follow.
God does not impose any Laws upon humans. Humans are free to choose to follow the Laws of God or not.

There is no caveat. You have clearly stated that everything that happens is by god's will, and that things cannot happen that he has not willed and is not aware of. Also, we cannot go against god's will.

Under these conditions, it is simply impossible for free will to exist.

Everything that happens is according to God's will because it can only happen if God allows it to happen.

Free will exists because God gave man free will but God can override our free will choices, if He chooses to.

 

[CG Didymus]

BhagawadGita has no stories, it only has the writers' (?) advice.

There are many others, but why not choose the biggest? That was their idea. An you are right, they just needed a name. Other than that, they had nothing to do with Krishna. As I have already said Krishna is Hindu mythology and there is no proof that he was a historical person.

I really don't think the Baha'i Faith acknowledges any Hindu or Buddhist writings as being from "God" like they do with the Bible and the Quran. That is all they took the name, Krishna. Plus, with him, they had the added benefit of some end time prophecies of Kalki that they could "interpret" to use to show how it points to Baha'u'llah. But are those prophecies about Kalki real? And if Baha'is want to use them, does it support their claim that God sent two prophets, The Bab and Baha'u'llah?

 

[Trailblazer]

And what is the "evidence" that ...
1. A god exists.
2. It is the god you worship
3. Bahaullah actually communicated with him.
In that order.

The evidence that....
* A God exists.
* It is the God I worship
* Baha'u'llah actually communicated with God

is embedded in the Writings of Baha'u'llah.

If Baha'u'llah was a true Messenger of God, then everything He wrote is true.

The only way we can now if the claims of Baha'u'llah (which are embedded in the Writings of Baha'u'llah) are true is by looking at everything that supports the claims of Baha'u'llah. This is called independent investigation of truth.

 

[Trailblazer]

Even if it was the most important message in the world, that doesn't alter the fact that there is no reason to assume it was delivered by a supernatural being. People are more than capable of coming up with the kind of stuff Bahullah said.

There is no reason to assume that but there is a reason to believe that after we have done an independent investigation of Baha'u'llah, who He was as a person. what He did on His mission, and what He wrote.

Ordinary people are not capable of doing what Baha'u'llah did or writing what Baha'u'llah wrote, and that is a reason to believe He was who He claimed to be, a Messenger of God.

There are more reasons to believe that the Baha'i Faith is a true religion from God, aside from what Baha'ullah did and wrote.

 

[CG Didymus]

Please show me where God ever inflicted any killing and suffering and evil on the world.

Not that you believe the Bible, but the stories in the Bible have God punishing and killing his own people... Has Elijah killing the prophets of another religion, because they believe is different, therefore, false God. God sent bears to maul some kids that teased Elisha. God destroyed Nineveh and Sodom and Gomorrah. He had his people kill all the men, women and children in Jericho. God sent 10 plaques to the Egyptians.

God does not impose any Laws upon humans. Humans are free to choose to follow the Laws of God or not.

Wow, not an imposition? Break the Sabbath? Get stoned to death. Be a problem child? Get stoned to death. Not a virgin on your wedding night? Get stoned to death.

But that was the Bible again. So, Baha'i laws are just suggestions? They're optional? I don't think so. Are you sure? Like with drinking alcohol or sleeping around? It is forbidden. Don't do it. It is the law of God. But it's your choice. We're not going to do anything.

 

[CG Didymus]

There is a whole lot more reasons to believe that the Baha'i Faith is a true religion from God,

Is there any reasons not to? Maybe not for you. But do you think that some people have valid reasons not to believe in Baha'u'llah, or they are just blind and not seeing the truth that is so obviously to you?

 

[Trailblazer]

Okay, if the Baha'i Faith is true, it is the most important message we have right now. But... if it's not true, it's still important. But I said for the wrong reasons. Because then, it would be a lie. It would be a false religion claiming the promised one had come, but he hasn't. I think there is still a chance the Christian interpretation could be right, and Jesus hasn't come yet. If that is true, then what was the Baha'i Faith?

I can hardly believe that you think there is still a chance the Christian interpretation could be right, and Jesus hasn't come yet. Even if Baha'u'llah was not who He claimed to be there is absolutely no way Jesus is ever coming back to earth again. Jesus never promised to return and He said that He was no more in the world and that His work is finished here. I have proven that Jesus never promised to return with the Bible on numerous occasions. The return of the same man Jesus is the biggest hoax ever perpetrated upon Christians and it even tops the hoax of the bodily resurrection.

You are free to believe whatever you want to, but I am 100% sure that Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be, as all the evidence shows that He was exactly that.

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you mean only you have comprehension skills?

No, I mean that some people on this forum don't.

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you really not see the circular logic here, you just disagreed and then stated exactly what KWED said. Wow . . .

There is no circular logic. You just do not understand what I meant. No matter. People rarely do.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Please show me where God ever inflicted any killing and suffering and evil on the world.

We witness it every day. 220 people died of Covid today in India. Deaths world-wide stand at 5,446,566. Bible says something about Amalekites.

 

[lukethethird]

Do you trust God?
I trust my mother.

 

[Trailblazer]

I would like to correct your sentence. You do not know any God. You only know what Bahaollah said about his God/Allah.

I would like to correct your sentence. You do not know what I know. I know what Baha'u'llah said about God and I know it is the truth.

 

[Aupmanyav]

But are those prophecies about Kalki real?

For me, prophecies are farce and those who believe in prophecies are ignorant and superstitious. 21st Century people should be wiser. Yeah, sure, there are Hindus as well who believe in prophecies.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The evidence that....
* A God exists.
* It is the God I worship
* Baha'u'llah actually communicated with God
is embedded in the Writings of Baha'u'llah.
If Baha'u'llah was a true Messenger of God, then everything He wrote is true.
The only way we can now if the claims of Baha'u'llah (which are embedded in the Writings of Baha'u'llah) are true is by looking at everything that supports the claims of Baha'u'llah.

Classic circular reasoning. There is nothing that supports what Bahaollah said.

Ordinary people are not capable of doing what Baha'u'llah did or writing what Baha'u'llah wrote, and that is a reason to believe He was who He claimed to be, a Messenger of God.
There are more reasons to believe that the Baha'i Faith is a true religion from God, aside from what Baha'ullah did and wrote.

Yes, he was a prolific writer of ambiguous prose. One never knew whether it was Bahaollah or his Allah speaking. Bahais says that is OK, since what Bahaollah said cannot be different from what their Allah would have said. If he really wrote all the writings attributed to him, Bahais say that there could be more untranslated 'tablets' (sic.) of Bahaollah with their House of Justice, which they can bring out whenever the situation demands like a magician brings out rabbits from his hat.