Do you trust God?

[Sheldon]

No legitimate response, huh?

To another of your angry disjointed rants, attacking atheists, while telling them they're not being attacked? You're kidding right?

 

[Sheldon]

Maybe for some, circular reasoning is appealing.

Well they're easy to create, because creating them is....easy.

 

[Trailblazer]

Someone claiming they're a messenger from a deity, is not evidence they're a messenger from a deity. A written account of their claim, or of what they claim is the message, is not evidence for that claim or that the message's origins are divine.

I never claimed either one of these are evidence.... never.
This just demonstrates that you have not understood anything I have been saying, post after post.

 

[Trailblazer]

No legitimate response, huh?

From what I have seen, these kind of atheists don't have any legitimate responses.

They are only here as trolls. You cannot have an honest conversation with a troll because that is not what they are here for. They are here to play games and try to make believers look foolish, not because they want to know anything about God or religion.

I have tried to give them the benefit of the doubt but that is because I can be rather naive.
But it really does not matter to be what they believe because I know I am not the one who will be holding the short end of the stick when the curtain call comes.

That is not to say that all nonbelievers are like this. Some of them sincerely want to know the truth.

 

[Trailblazer]

And how do you know? It could be that the kid I shot was another baby Hitler, and God guided my hand. Who can say?

So, how do you know that when you decide to do X, that is a pure expression of your free will (without external influence), vs. being the result of a guide from God?

I do not believe we can know, and even if we believe we are freely choosing that does not mean that free choice was not guided by God.

 

[Trailblazer]

That said, I find it easy to write scripture (e.g. Baháʼí, Quran, Scientology, Mormonism, etc.) long after the original texts and then plug up any holes in the original plot so the story runs smoother. This is called Apologetics in philosophical terms, authors and movie scriptwriters do this all the time.

That might have happened with the scriptures of the older religions but it has not happened with the Writings of Baha'u'llah since we have the original Writings penned in the hand of Baha'u'llah and stamped with His official seal, and they will never be altered by man. They have been translated into many languages but the originals still exist in Persian and Arabic for those who understand those languages.

 

[Trailblazer]

Watch carefully this argument he was a messenger from a deity:

He is a Messenger because God appointed Him to be a Messenger.

You cannot assume your argument or any part of it in your argument, that is a begging the question fallacy, used to create circular reasoning. Why this has to be explained repeatedly when your claim is so obviously circular is hard to understand, but it is circular reasoning.

Logically speaking, if He is a Messenger He is a Messenger because God appointed Him to be a Messenger because the only way He could BE a Messenger of God is if God appointed Him to BE a Messenger.

I am not assuming He was a Messenger, I base my beliefs upon the evidence.

 

[Trailblazer]

That assumes that Mírzá Ḥusayn-ʻAlí Núrí, who took the title, Baha'u'llah, is the true messenger. So, anyone claiming to be a messenger, prior to 1000 years from him, is a lying imposter.

I do not assume that, I believe that. YMMV.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ah, good old independent investigation is going to show us that indeed... God appointed Baha'u'llah. There is just so much evidence that he is speaking the truth and all the other people claiming to be from God are lying imposters.

That is what I believe. YMMV.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sure, we have choices. But free-will is just a way for religious believers to blame us and not God.

That's because we alone are blameworthy. God cannot be to blame because God cannot make mistakes, since God is infallible. Humans are fallible so they make mistakes for which they are to blame.

It assumes God is so loving that he wanted to allow us to come to him on our own... on are own free-will. Then puts tests and stumbling blocks all along the path to trip us up. Nice guy.

I do not assume that, I believe it. Although I am not all in on the loving God part I know all about the stumbling blocks since I am stumbling and falling all the time.

 

[Sheldon]

Someone claiming they're a messenger from a deity, is not evidence they're a messenger from a deity. A written account of their claim, or of what they claim is the message, is not evidence for that claim or that the message's origins are divine.

I never claimed either one of these are evidence.... never.

Messengers of God are the evidence of God’s existence

the Messengers of God are the evidence that God exists

the evidence is the Messengers that God sends

investigating the claims of the Messenger and looking at the evidence that He provided to back up His claims.

The evidence I am always referring to, the Messengers of God.

Messengers of God are the evidence.

The religions of God that the Messengers of God establish that we can directly observe and get from our senses are the evidence that God exists.

Messengers of God are the only evidence they have to look at them to have evidence that God exists.

I am not assuming He was a Messenger, I base my beliefs upon the evidence.

 

[Trailblazer]

What's troubling is... if it's not different. If people still have their flaws. And that includes the leaders. They won't be perfect. But they might appear to be perfect on the outside. Like who knew some priests were going to fool around with altar boys? Who knew that a high profile preacher was having secret affairs?

I know LSA members that had flaws. All pretty nice people, but they weren't perfect. And it is so easy for people to hide those inner desires. Maybe there is a little greed or jealousy deep inside. Will it someday come out? Like the Hand of the Cause that tried to take over the Guardianship?

I do think there will be a problem of Baha'i leaders tending to be overly conservative and even becoming authoritarian. Who's going to stop them, since they are supporting and enforcing the laws and beliefs of the Faith? Maybe something like a crackdown on Baha'is that smoke pot or drink beer? Who's going to say that shouldn't be done?

Then, after that, cleaning up the gay issue within the Faith. Or types of "immorality". Especially with the youth. No dating without a chaperone. No kissing much less anything else. Which Baha'is are going to stand up and say, "What's wrong with gays being gays and kids having a little fun? Or a married couple "experimenting" with other people?"

These problem of sex, drugs and alcohol are going to be there. And at some point the Baha'i Faith is going to have to deal with it. Or, they leave it on the honor system. Then, like other religions, Baha'is are going to be saying one thing, but doing something else. And that's the worst. If the Baha'i Faith is true, and their laws are from God, then they must be obeyed. And who's going to make sure they are obeyed? Not the ones doing the behaviors. It's going to be conservative, law-abiding Baha'is that are going to be put in a position to become, if they aren't already, authoritarian and have the laws enforced. And, in some ways, that's the worst.

Let the behavior go and Baha'i look like hypocrites. Crackdown and they look like legalistic, authoritarians. Even in the middle somewhere isn't perfect. You let some behaviors go and just put a stop to the more extreme abuses?

All humans have flaws. All we can do is our best to adhere to the Laws. There is no way to know what will happen in the future but God is not going to lower His standards just so people who cannot live up to them will be free to do whatever they lease. The Laws are for the protection of individuals and society.

“Think not”, is Bahá’u’lláh’s own assertion, “that We have revealed unto you a mere code of laws. Nay, rather, We have unsealed the choice Wine with the fingers of might and power.” His Book of Laws is His “weightiest testimony unto all people, and the proof of the All-Merciful unto all who are in heaven and all who are on earth”.
The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, p. 3

“Think not that We have revealed unto you a mere code of laws. Nay, rather, We have unsealed the choice Wine with the fingers of might and power. To this beareth witness that which the Pen of Revelation hath revealed. Meditate upon this, O men of insight!”
The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, p. 21

 

[EtuMalku]

That might have happened with the scriptures of the older religions but it has not happened with the Writings of Baha'u'llah since we have the original Writings penned in the hand of Baha'u'llah and stamped with His official seal, and they will never be altered by man. They have been translated into many languages but the originals still exist in Persian and Arabic for those who understand those languages.

I'm afraid it sounds like it already has . . . Baháʼí seems like a rewrite of Christianity.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm afraid it sounds like it already has . . . Baháʼí seems like a rewrite of Christianity.

No, it is not a rewrite, just the fulfillment of the promises of Jesus, since Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

 

[EtuMalku]

No, it is not a rewrite, just the fulfillment of the promises of Jesus, since Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Where are those verses from?

 

[CG Didymus]

No, they rope in Krishna and Buddha (if you consider them among the 'big').

That's worth talking about. They say a messenger revealed the new message from God and that message became a new religion with Scriptures written about that messenger and his teachings. The problem... Was there already religious beliefs in India that came to be known as "Hinduism" before there was a messenger, Krishna, that brought the message that Baha'is accept as "Hinduism"?

 

[CG Didymus]

If what the Baha'is are saying is true, then it is the most important message in the world.

"If" it is true. If the message born-again Christians are preaching is true, then it is the most important message, and it makes the Baha'is message false. And likewise, if the Baha'i message is true, born-again Christians are believing and preaching a misinterpretation of Christ's message. As is, they both can't be right.

I think you should have stopped right there, as you are right in saying that it is the most important message in the world.

And that is quoting me out of context. If the message isn't true, then, it is still important, but for the wrong reasons.

Even if it was the most important message in the world,

It is only the most important message, if it was from a supernatural, invisible spirit being. If not, it is man-made and, even if it has a lot of nice "truths" in it, the God stuff is a lie. And I think lots of religious writings were man-made and attributed to some mythical God that fit into the beliefs of those people.

The Baha'i Faith fits really well with Persian Islamic beliefs. But what does it have to do with Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism and the rest of the religious beliefs out there? Baha'is have to do a lot of reworking the beliefs, Scriptures and interpretations of those other religions to make the Baha'i Faith fit.

And, of course, they don't think so. They think it is a perfect fit. And it's a great alternative for some religious people. What's wrong with working for peace and unity? It's just that part of their religion tells them to go out and teach the word to others. And as soon as they do that the questions arise... Why should I believe what you say is true?

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha'u'llah explained in detail that God can not be known, that the only way any person can know God is via a Messenger.

Not that Buddha thought that he was God or anything, but didn't he believe that he became enlightened and taught how other people could also become enlightened?

Whereas the Baha'i message makes Buddha a manifestation of God that revealed things about that God. And, since a manifestation is different than ordinary humans, those ordinary people can't become the same as Buddha. So, a little clarification on what Baha'is believe about Buddha and what Baha'is believe he taught.

 

[CG Didymus]

I have to pass on to you this quote because you are on to something:

Do you not know that every religion in the world has declared every other religion a fraud? Yes, we all know it. That is the time all religions tell the truth - each of the other.

Robert Green Ingersoll

Whether it's just getting together on Sunday. Or meditating under a tree. Or whatever a religion tells its people to do... it does get people to kind of, sometimes, do good and be better, more spiritual people.

What's wrong with that? One problem is the religions that believe their message is the best, or the newest, and must be spread to all people. So, that they can hear the good news and learn the "truth". So yup, those religions, especially, go out and tell everybody why the old religions are no longer correct, or that maybe some of them were never correct. But, that theirs, is correct.

And how do they know? Because it makes sense? It sounds reasonable? And if the prophet says that the message came from God, why not believe it? Are we going to reject a good message just because the messenger said it came from God? No, that just means, for some, that what the messenger says about God must be true too. Only problem is that it contradicts all the other religions.

No problem, their messenger said that those other religions messed up the original teachings. That original message did not contradict this new message. So, the people say, "Okay that explains it. They messed up and misinterpreted their message. We ought to go tell them." They go tell the people in the other religions who then say, "No, you think you're right, but you're wrong. Our religion right here in this book of Scriptures tells us what is true. And what you're saying isn't true."

Yes, both could very well be right. The other people in that other religion are wrong.

 

[EtuMalku]

Whether it's just getting together on Sunday. Or meditating under a tree. Or whatever a religion tells its people to do... it does get people to kind of, sometimes, do good and be better, more spiritual people.

What's wrong with that? One problem is the religions that believe their message is the best, or the newest, and must be spread to all people. So, that they can hear the good news and learn the "truth". So yup, those religions, especially, go out and tell everybody why the old religions are no longer correct, or that maybe some of them were never correct. But, that theirs, is correct.

And how do they know? Because it makes sense? It sounds reasonable? And if the prophet says that the message came from God, why not believe it? Are we going to reject a good message just because the messenger said it came from God? No, that just means, for some, that what the messenger says about God must be true too. Only problem is that it contradicts all the other religions.

No problem, their messenger said that those other religions messed up the original teachings. That original message did not contradict this new message. So, the people say, "Okay that explains it. They messed up and misinterpreted their message. We ought to go tell them." They go tell the people in the other religions who then say, "No, you think you're right, but you're wrong. Our religion right here in this book of Scriptures tells us what is true. And what you're saying isn't true."

Yes, both could very well be right. The other people in that other religion are wrong.

When I hear ONE word come from ANY god, deity, spiritual creature, etc. Then and only then might I sit up and take notice. Until then, it's all fables as far as I'm concerned.