Do you trust God?

[Trailblazer]

Any religion that believes a "just" God would give people only one life, one chance to get it right when there are so many random variables that influence a person's choices in life, is operating under the fear factor. They are making people make the choice, "Join or die and live eternity separated from God."

That is what Christians believe, only once chance, heaven or hell, but that is not a Baha'i belief.

It is best to make the choice before you die because you will be in a better position in the next life, but there is still another life after this life to continue growing spiritually. There is no reason to ever have to come back to this earthly life.

But then speaking of "Just"? God puts a spirit/soul into a human body, a body that has an animal nature and a spiritual nature, and is going to punish them for not making the right spiritual choices?"

I don't believe that God is going to punish them, they punish themselves for not making the right choices and thereby becoming what they were created for, a spiritual being.

Then even if they made a spiritual choice, it might not be the right one? Then what happens to animals? They live and die and are gone? Yet, people believe they are special and have an eternal spirit?

Nobody knows what happens to animals when they die but I believe their spirits live on in some form.

But then so a person "believes". How deeply, how committed are they? What is their spiritual capacity? Are they living up to it? Will God reward them and let them get closer to his all-glorious self? To believe is just the first step. God expects more. Isn't there verses that suggest that God demands a total commitment? If a person really believes, I mean really believes, wouldn't they give it all? So, I question how totally committed, some people are, to their religious beliefs? So, I don't feel that far behind them. They've walked through one door and haven't gone all that far in yet. I'm outside peeking through the windows. Looking at different religions, watching to see what people in those religions actually do when inside. Lots of them don't do much.

I agree that most people are not that committed to their religious beliefs and that is mostly because they are attached to the things of the world. Jesus spoke of that and Baha'u'llah reiterated what Jesus said.

John 12:24-26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

“The world is but a show, vain and empty, a mere nothing, bearing the semblance of reality. Set not your affections upon it. Break not the bond that uniteth you with your Creator, and be not of those that have erred and strayed from His ways. Verily I say, the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion.”
Gleanings, pp. 328-329

You said: "I'm outside peeking through the windows. Looking at different religions, watching to see what people in those religions actually do when inside."

You should not be looking at religious people in order to decide which religion is true because all religions have spiritual people and worldly people.

 

[Trailblazer]

And Jesus fixes things.

Nowhere in the NT does Jesus say that He is coming back to "fix things."

 

[EtuMalku]

But I am not using religious texts to prove my religion.

You said: "I know what the true God is because Baha'u'llah explained that in His Writings"
What writings are you talking about then?

 

[Trailblazer]

Okay, God is not going to fix things, but he is going to give assistance?

They're fumbling things already.

They are not fumbling things, there are just not many Baha'is running with the ball and even when they have the ball they don't know how to get down the field. That is the problem as I see it standing on the bench and looking out onto the field.

Could they even run the affairs of a city that has that many Baha'is? Then someday they are going to be Local Houses of Justice? If it is way off in the future the Baha'i Faith is virtually useless. The world needs help and change now. If these are God's laws and if God has a plan to unite the world, it has to happen soon. Most Baha'is are just average people. They are going to fumble around and make mistakes. People aren't going to wait forever for change.

You are preaching to the choir. I would like to see the changes now, the sooner the better, but people do not move that fast and there is only so much that they can do, or are willing to do. I don't know all the reasons for the lagging because I am not involved, but even if I was involved I would only have a personal opinion.

People will have to wait for as long as it takes. Rome was not built overnight.

 

[Trailblazer]

Okay, the clouds but then... Does your book about Revelation get into the piercing? Christian do have a verse that shows that Jesus was pierced.

Baha'u'llah was also pierced by heavy chains which left Him scarred for the rest of His life..

“Many prisoners did not survive the brutal conditions in Persian dungeons, either. In the Black Pit, for example, men were held underground in a dank, foul, fetid old cistern, bound together with massive, heavy chains and collars. Baha’u’llah, who had lived a life of privilege until his arrest, found himself shackled with two of the most galling of those huge chains, so feared and infamous they had names.”
The Message Baha’u’llah Received in the Black Pit

“Baha’u’llah was thrown into the Black Pit, an infamous dungeon in Tehran. A number of other Babis had also been arrested and were chained together with him in the dungeon.

Baha’u’llah was forced to wear constantly one or the other of two heavy chains. So great was their weight that they left him scarred for the rest of his life.”
https://bahaiteachings.org/the-black-pit-violence-torture-and-gruesome-death/

 

[Trailblazer]

The other question I ask Baha'is is... Who is the Lamb of God and the Lamb that was Slain in Revelation. Whoever that is, that who is returning. And there are verses that sure make it sound like it is Jesus.

Can you cite the verses in Revelation that say that the Lamb is the one who will be returning?
I looked but I could not find the verses.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, it doesn't matter what the prophecy says, there is always a way to manipulate it to say what Baha'is need it to say. They can change any amount of days or years or anything come out to 1844. I'd much rather them just say that the prophecy isn't true.

No, it doesn't matter what the prophecy says, there is always a way to manipulate it to say what anyone wants it to say. They can change any amount of days or years or anything so it does not come out to 1844. I'd much rather just say that the prophecy is no proof of anything because anyone can make it come out to any date they want by interpreting various Bible verses to mean what they want them to mean, and that is exactly what people do.

 

[Trailblazer]

You said: "I know what the true God is because Baha'u'llah explained that in His Writings"
What writings are you talking about then?

I am talking about the Writings of Baha'u'llah, but I am not using those Writings to prove my religion is true.
I only believed the Writings were true after I came to believe that the religion is true.

 

[EtuMalku]

I am talking about the Writings of Baha'u'llah, but I am not using those Writings to prove my religion is true.
I only believed the Writings were true after I came to believe that the religion is true.

 

[Sheldon]

Aupmanyav said: ↑
5.4 million people, young and old, fathers and mothers, die; hundreds of million are out of jobs, millions of business enterprises have gone down; and you say that has nothing to do with God? What kind of ogre is your God?

Yes, I am saying it has nothing to do with God. Why would it?

Obviously because the rationale of many god concepts, is that they could prevent suffering by will alone, and yet do nothing. The usual sophistry is free will, but would you do nothing to prevent a rape or a murder, or even the rape of a child, just to preserve the free will of the rapist or murderer? Of course that's largely irrelevant since most suffering is not a consequence of human autonomy or action.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Is there anything positive that Baha'is are doing in India? Who is converting? Are most of them satisfied with their new religion? Do they still practice some Hindu things? Do they go out and try to "teach" others? In the US I really don't think much is happening.

Yeah, like other religions, Bahais are into conversions in India too targeting the poor and the uneducated.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yes, I am saying it has nothing to do with God. Why would it?

You say every thing that happens is according to the will of your God. Then, how is he not connected with what is happening in the world?

 

[Trailblazer]

You say every thing that happens is according to the will of your God. Then, how is he not connected with what is happening in the world?

God allows it to happen but God does not cause it to happen. Humans cause it to happen, except for natural disasters which just happen in a physical world.

 

[Vinayaka]

Is there anything positive that Baha'is are doing in India? Who is converting? Are most of them satisfied with their new religion? Do they still practice some Hindu things? Do they go out and try to "teach" others? In the US I really don't think much is happening.

The Bahai' 'stats' claim 2 million adherents. The Indian government census puts it at a little over 4000. The famous Lotus temple in Delhi is on the tourist route and 99.9% of the visitors are interested in the architecture. It's on the tourist route like the Red Fort and the Taj Mahal. It's an advertisement, no different than the large crosses you see on all the Catholic built hospitals and schools.

In village India anybody will sign anything to make the other person happy. The 'conversions' are like that. Some states have anti-proselytising laws, so they have to be careful.

So largely, they have done nothing, and have no impact on the 1.3 billion people who inhabit the subcontinent. And of course, that's not what the Baha'i will tell you. They'll tell you it's growing still, and has been an overwhelming success.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Baha'u'llah was also pierced by heavy chains which left Him scarred for the rest of His life.

Chains do not pierce the body. And any marks left get healed in a matter of days. So, Bahaollah could not have been scarred for all his life. He was in jail for just 4 months before the enemies of Iran (British, Russians and Turkomans) came to his rescue. And prisoners are put in chains only when they are being transported from one place to another, and not all the time. Is this another Bahai lie? And for evidence you provide is a link to Bahaiteachings.org. How heavy were the chains? What is your definition of heavy?

Islam calls such people "Munafiq". They can speak any lie which the situation requires. See here: Munafiq - Wikipedia

 

[Trailblazer]

Chain do not pierce the body. And any marks left get healed in a matter of days. So, Bahaollah could not have been scarred for all his life.

I really cannot say but I do not believe that all wounds heal and if He said He was scarred I believe Him.

 

[Aupmanyav]

God allows it to happen but God does not cause it to happen. Humans cause it to happen, except for natural disasters which just happen in a physical world.

How can humans do what God does not will? And are not natural disasters God's doing? No humans involved there.

 

[Trailblazer]

How can humans do what God does not will? And are not natural disasters God's doing? No humans involved there.

Humans can act according to their own free will and God allows that...

Some natural disasters such as earthquakes can be considered God's doing, but weather-related natural disasters are partly God's doing and partly man's doing because humans engage in activities that affect climate change thereby causing natural disasters.

 

[Aupmanyav]

So is your God not aware of the damage to life and property that comes with earthquakes, tsunamies and volcanoes. Why did he make the world like that? And does your God plays no part in environmental disasters? You are putting all the blame on humans.

 

[Trailblazer]

So is your God not aware of the damage to life and property that comes with earthquakes, tsunamies and volcanoes. Why did he make the world like that?

I don't know why, you will have to ask God, if you can reach Him on your cell.

And does your God plays no part in environmental disasters? You are putting all the blame on humans.

I did not say that God plays no part. I said: "but weather-related natural disasters are partly God's doing and partly man's doing because humans engage in activities that affect climate change thereby causing natural disasters."