free spirit
Well-Known Member
You obviously have read the post, so what do you make of these verses.
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Do you understand the New Testament
- Thread starter free spirit
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AK4
Well-Known Member
You suggesteed it -- not me.
You tell me why we should do them.
Really we shouldnt. We should be worshipping in spirit. Nothing physical can save you (rituals).
I don't believe it is a deliberate mistranslation. Hell is the closest we can come, culturally, to the Hebrew concept of Sheol. Sometimes translation isn't very exact, because there's no way the exact transliteration would make sense to us.
You dont?! Read up on why the church made hades to be the hell they portrray it to be. The whole concept of hell is nowhere close to what sheol meant originally.
Nope. Sorry to disappoint you, but, no.
Well, yes, nothing, except for loosely. The parable of the yeast tells us that God is willing to get dirty for us (the understanding being that we cannot purify ourselves enough for God). It's about reconciliation.
If that happens to coincide with the idea of trashing tightly-held practices that "insure" our purity, then it does dovetail with the other quite nicely.
BTW, what makes you think that "all parables mean the same thing?" What do you think they mean?
Mr 4:13 -And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
Do you get that? If you truly know this parable then you can know all parables. Yet you still dont know this one.
Ill give you a clue----there are two catagories being talked about.
That's right, it's dam* frightening! Because if we don't have free will, then we are not free to love God.
Thats just the regular parrotting of everyone who lacks understanding. I know i have no free will yet i know i love God deeply for giving me all that He has. He caused me to love Him not the other way around. "the goodness of God leads you to repentance". Do you see who causes who to come to who? I truly understand this
Who else compiled the Bible but Christians???
Heres just one example and clue---Septuagiant (i know its spelled wrong)
As a member of the clergy, I'm not only familiar with the Bible, but with all other parts of Christian Tradition, as well. Yes. Christian Tradition holds that Christ reigns at God's right hand.
You avoided my question? Does Christ riegn for ever and ever?
AK4
Well-Known Member
?????????
Wow you have even more power than Christ Himself because even He says
Joh 5:30 - I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
and He says of us
Joh 15:5 - I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Ah, so it was a literal talking Serpent?
Rev 20:2
He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Worship isn't designed to save us, in any case. Worship is designed to open us to a transforming relationship with God. The rituals help us do that.
Our whole concept of "hell" comes from Dante. There is no English equivalent for "Sheol."
It means literally, "a place of shadows." But, as far as I'm aware, there is no specific teaching or idea with regard to specifics about the place. It's just "where the dead people live," in a manner of speaking. Gehenna is a different concept, and refers to the valley outside Jerusalem, where the dump was. They kept it constantly burning. The Greek Hades became associated with this "dead" place that always burned. What's your point? That the concept of hell is wrong? I agree. So do lots and lots of Christians -- including most other church leaders, scholars and theologians.
LOL. You're proof-texting again, and, as usual, you got it wrong.
First of all, we were talking about Matthew, so let's stick with Matthew for clarity's sake, shall we:
A better place to start is Mk 4:11, and continuing through 13. This is borrowed by Matthew, and placed in chapter 13, as part of his sermon. 13:11-13: "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to those who have, more will be given, and they will have an abundance; but from those who have nothing, even what they have will be taken away. The reason I speak to them in parables is that "seeing they do not perceive, and hearing they do not listen, nor do they understand."'"
Mark puts a slightly different spin on it.
Jesus teaches in parables in order to entice us to see and to hear. those of us who 'get it" receive deeper insight. Those who don't "get it" are just confused.
This has nothing to do with the message of the parables being the same. It has everything to do with how the parables work. Parables are riddles. If you are able to get one, you should be able to get them all, since they all employ the same device: the Reversal.
That's all the text means here.
I do not intend to be drug into a convoluted debate about your understanding of the parable. I understand the parable. I have taken two courses from a noted parable scholar, who has authored at least two books on the subject.
God invites, but can not cause. The former encourages love. The latter is coersion, and not love.
The LXX (just subtract your final "a") is the Greek translation of the Hebrew texts. It was undertaken by 70 scholars (hence, the name Septuagint). Yes, Christians used the LXX in compiling the Bible. But they had the final say in what was "in" and what was "out." In fact, there is more included in the LXX than made it into the Protestant canon. The stories about the 70 translators being sequestered from each other, and yet coming up with the exact same translation is legend.Heres just one example and clue---Septuagiant (i know its spelled wrong
Not according to 1 Cor. 15:24. However, there are other references to the eternal reign of Christ than just that snippet of text. Since I don't subscribe to sola scriptura, I'm not bound to the Bible, but can avail myself of the whole Tradition.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
According to the myth, a serpent talked to Eve. However, we understand the use of allegory in most mythic writing. Allegorically speaking, the serpent is a symbol, or a type -- not a literal animal. And speaking historically, the serpent is often a symbol of wisdom, not a symbol for Satan.
The imagery in Revelation has nothing to do with the imagery in Genesis. Two different traditions -- two different myths -- two different cultures.
AK4
Well-Known Member
Pauline doctrines huh? And contradicts? Oh if only people will learn that those who are resurrected to judgment will be chastised and then saved. Where do you wanna begin with this. Well learn that everlasting is not scriptural, many words should have been translated age-lasting instead of everlasting or eternal. Learn that there are ages or seasons for everything. Learn when Jesus said He was the Saviour of the world that He will not and cannot fail in the mission the His Father commissioned Him for. (Seriously do you believe that the Saviour will fail miserably at what He was commissioned for?) Learn that this is not the age for everyone to be saved? If Jesus came to save those who are lost, then those that will be lost in this age He will have to save after their judgment (the resurrection of the unjust/lost right?). etc etc etc.
AK4
Well-Known Member
free spirit
Well-Known Member
to ak4 think about it!
you just do not get it do you? You speak like this because you do not know what is like to be in christ. Jesus said that he could not do wrong because the father was in him, likewise i am saying that i cannot do wrong because i am in christ.?????????
wow you have even more power than christ himself because even he says
joh 5:30 - i can of mine own self do nothing: As i hear, i judge: And my judgment is just; because i seek not mine own will, but the will of the father which hath sent
me.
or do you think that christ cannot keep me from doing wrong.
and he says of us
http://www.biblestudytools.com/onli...+15:5&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1exactly what i said above. :d
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Oh, they do? What about baptism? What about sharing the Lord's Supper? both are inherently humbling experiences. What about prayer?
You'll have to show me where in the Bible worship is presented as specifically a means of salvation, according to the particularly Christian theology of salvation.
No, it came from Dante. Dante may have gotten from the Egyptians, but most Xians haven't studied Egyptology. Most Xians are familiar with the popular vision of hell, as formulated by Dante in his literary works.
I'm not going to be roped into playing Sesame Street games with Biblical language. Either present your argument, along with supporting evidence, and move on.
Sheol, the term in Hebrew means a grave or pit, was the place where the dead gathered, as thought by the early Hebrews, and was believed located beneath the earth, perhaps at the roots of mountains. The dead were thought to lead a conscious shadowy existence there, they were not in torment, but had neither hope nor satisfaction. Some thought they remained cut off from God.
Sheol, “the land of gloom and deep darkness” (Job 10:21).
These two are are from the Oxford Dictionary of World Religions, and
Briannica Online.
Suficient?
I said "specific," as in, "we could formulate doctrinal statements from these."
No, I see a chopped up version of my post, which reads:
(Note: In a manner of speaking)
Please don't presume to teach me anything about the parables. I'm quite well-versed in them. Judging by your assertion that "if you know one, you will know them all," you, on the other hand, are not.
Because you obviously can't do it on your own.
And the lookouts on the Titanic said, "Oh, look! A little patch of ice!" too.
The reversal, present in most of Jesus' teachings (including the parables) is the idea that Jesus is trying to get across. For example, in the parable of the leaven, dough is assumed to be good to eat. In those days, leaven wasn't like the yeast we use now. It was poison. The reversal is that the kingdom of God is like a poison. In other words, God became dirty for us.
free spirit
Well-Known Member
TO AK4 ON YOUR POST 247
You are making God to be a mounster, a psychopath, God is just, you should not believe reports of evil and lies about him, I understand Romans 9 - 11 to 29, and I have corrected it for you, no because I know Greek but I have the mind of Christ for it should read.
" for though the twins were not yet born, and had not done anything good or bad in order that God's purpose according to his character might stand, not because of works, but because of him who judges. it was said to her, the older will serve the younger. Just as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated. What shall we say then? There is no justice with God, is there? May it never be! For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I find mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I find compassion. So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who judges the heart. For the scripture says to Pharaoh, For this very purpose I raised you up, to demostrate you my power, and that my name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.
So then he has mercy on whom he approves and he hardens whom he dislikes. You will say to me then, why does he still find faults? On the contrary, who are you o man, who question the judgement of God?
......................................................................
..................part of verse 20 and verse 21 do not belong.........
..............................................................................
what if God although willing to demostrate his wrath and to make his mercy known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath destined for destruction. and he did so in order that he might make known the riches of his character upon vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory.
Even us, whom he also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among gentiles. As he says also in Hosea, I will call those who were not my people, my people. And her who was not beloved, beloved. And it shall be that in the place where it was said to them, you are not my people, there they shall be called sons of the living God.
And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the merciful that will be saved; for the Lord will execute his word upon the earth throughty and quickly. And just as Isaiah foretold, except the Lord of Sabaoth had left to us a posterity, we would have become as Sodom, and would have resembled Gomorrah."
Glory to God
'LUKE 8 - 18, "THEREFORE take care how you listen (or read); for whoever has, to him shall more be given; and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has shall be taken away from him"
You are making God to be a mounster, a psychopath, God is just, you should not believe reports of evil and lies about him, I understand Romans 9 - 11 to 29, and I have corrected it for you, no because I know Greek but I have the mind of Christ for it should read.
" for though the twins were not yet born, and had not done anything good or bad in order that God's purpose according to his character might stand, not because of works, but because of him who judges. it was said to her, the older will serve the younger. Just as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated. What shall we say then? There is no justice with God, is there? May it never be! For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I find mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I find compassion. So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who judges the heart. For the scripture says to Pharaoh, For this very purpose I raised you up, to demostrate you my power, and that my name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.
So then he has mercy on whom he approves and he hardens whom he dislikes. You will say to me then, why does he still find faults? On the contrary, who are you o man, who question the judgement of God?
......................................................................
..................part of verse 20 and verse 21 do not belong.........
..............................................................................
what if God although willing to demostrate his wrath and to make his mercy known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath destined for destruction. and he did so in order that he might make known the riches of his character upon vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory.
Even us, whom he also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among gentiles. As he says also in Hosea, I will call those who were not my people, my people. And her who was not beloved, beloved. And it shall be that in the place where it was said to them, you are not my people, there they shall be called sons of the living God.
And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the merciful that will be saved; for the Lord will execute his word upon the earth throughty and quickly. And just as Isaiah foretold, except the Lord of Sabaoth had left to us a posterity, we would have become as Sodom, and would have resembled Gomorrah."
Glory to God
'LUKE 8 - 18, "THEREFORE take care how you listen (or read); for whoever has, to him shall more be given; and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has shall be taken away from him"
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AK4,
Ohooo! The Aions, as you know I am a sucker for scriptures so where is this universal Salvation stated in scriptures I cited broad [is] the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. So not all are going to eternal life after this present one, some are destroyed, and Mathew chapter 7 goes on to say difficult [is] the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it That is what the Mater said, few are those that find eternal life many a destroyed. So Jesus is not the saviour of all,
As I told you this is a beautiful doctrine and is based on Pauls epistles Jesus never preached Universal Salvation and neither did the Apostle Paul, my only concern it that it can be taken as meaning that one can live whatever kind of life and that in the end Salvation awaits you, and I understand that to the follower of this doctrine even Satan will join the party, at a much later time, but he will be saved. How successful is this denomination? It is so lenient that it should fill their churches; I know that they are not, but do you have an idea of why is this so?
Ohooo! The Aions, as you know I am a sucker for scriptures so where is this universal Salvation stated in scriptures I cited broad [is] the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. So not all are going to eternal life after this present one, some are destroyed, and Mathew chapter 7 goes on to say difficult [is] the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it That is what the Mater said, few are those that find eternal life many a destroyed. So Jesus is not the saviour of all,
God forbid! Now who did Jesus came to saved?
Jhn 17:6
"I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word
"I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word
Sorry but the Master said :
Mat 15:24
But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
As I told you this is a beautiful doctrine and is based on Pauls epistles Jesus never preached Universal Salvation and neither did the Apostle Paul, my only concern it that it can be taken as meaning that one can live whatever kind of life and that in the end Salvation awaits you, and I understand that to the follower of this doctrine even Satan will join the party, at a much later time, but he will be saved. How successful is this denomination? It is so lenient that it should fill their churches; I know that they are not, but do you have an idea of why is this so?
You puzzled me, I thought that we Christian believe that scripture interprets scriptures, so if we want to find out what the serpent stands for in the allegory He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan Identifies it for me. Not to worry though because this allegory points out to many of the sins committed and if we take your view speaking historically, the serpent is often a symbol of wisdom, not a symbol for Satan and again staying within the Christian prospective Eve thought better of this creature wisdom than that of the Almighty creator of fall there is, can we add Idolatry to the list of sins represented in the allegory? Consider that Satan is said to want mans worship no other creature apart from man and Satan have this desire, consider also that the main characteristic show by serpent is decisiveness and that Revelation 20 goes on to state so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished so I think that both traditions imagery are of the same creature.
AK4,
How does this answer As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."? What did Esau did wrong for God to hate him? How Jacob did obtain his blessing? What does Israel the m name that God gave to Jacob mean?
Where scripture says this? I thought that prior to that Jesus was Baptized by John, then He was led up by the Spirit, He fasted and was ready for the confrontation. Jesus did not use any other gift other than It is written so really Jesus had what eve had God said and it was more than enough. Eve on the other hand thought that she had a better argument and added to the command.
this is a reference to what God replied to Moses, Moses asked of God and God was moved to mercy and Gods presence went with them. Then Moses asked to see Gods glory and God showed to Him.
How does this answer As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."? What did Esau did wrong for God to hate him? How Jacob did obtain his blessing? What does Israel the m name that God gave to Jacob mean?
Gen 32:26 Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak." But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me."
AK4
Well-Known Member
i will just say this briefly. For those who dont understand the plan of God, yes it would seem as if God is a monster when you read the Word and see what is going on in the world today and realise everything is of God.
Eph 3:9 - And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
1Co 8:6 - But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Etc. etc. What part of all there is not understood? There is no evil in God. Who can judge God anyway to say He is evil? Man? Isnt that exactly what this passage in Romans is addressing? Those who dont know the plan of God will call God a monster or whatever because He loved less Esau and chose Jacob and showed more favor to him. And for all you who say you have one shot to make it to "heaven", Esau is out of luck because IT WAS GOD WHO LOVED HIM LESS RIGHT? God didnt show him favor and now Esau will be terrorised in a fire for all eternity and it was Gods fault. "But why does God still blame us" or the way you put it "That makes God a monster". Yes that would make God a monster if that was the end of His plan. Yet it isnt and God will show favor/mercy to all. Those who know not the plan of God call Him a monster because they criticise what they dont know and question God for making things the way they are for this age.
I just got a question. how does it feel to know YOU (not just you in particular) have fulfilled some prophecy---
Ro 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Ro 11:33 -O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
In all sincerity, most folks within the major protestant denominations would disagree with you. The national accreditation association would disagree with you, too.
The scriptures also tell me that the sky is a hard dome, separating the waters of heaven from the waters of earth. Yes, God is creator, but God is also love. Since God is love, and we know that "love does not insist on its own way," we know that God invites (many references for this action) but does not force us to love God. A good case in point is the pericope of the Prodigal. Another is the Jacob Saga.
These is my opinions on the scriptures: I do not subscribe to sola scriptura. Therefore, a Biblical proof is, for me, not the final word.
According to the particular passage of I Cor. 15:24. But not according to orthodox Tradition.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
The authors of Genesis had no understanding of Satan. Therefore, they could not have been writing about Satan when they wrote Genesis. If a later writer came along and assigned that understanding to the story and wrote another document alluding to the Genesis serpent as Satan, that still has nothing to do with the Genesis serpent being Satan. It has to do with the other author's opinion that the Genesis serpent is Satan.
However, let me caution you that literature contains "markers," or similarities within genres. In this genre of ancient literature and storytelling, serpents are symbols of wisdom. And this is not out of line with the theology presented in Genesis. When humanity became knowledgeable about good and evil, we did become wise.
The Genesis account has parallels in the literature of other, more ancient cultures, leading us to believe that the Genesis account was "borrowed" from them. And, if borrowed, then certainly the markers were borrowed, as well.
Can we say this for certain? After all, שׂטן is in the OT, albeit with an entirely different nature and purpose. Or were you simply saying that they had no understanding of the christian concept of satan (in which case I would completely agree)?
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I think the latter is the same way in which the post to which I responded is conceptualizing Satan.