Do you understand the New Testament

[AK4]

emiliano

Sorry but the Master said :Mat 15:24But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

As I told you this is a beautiful doctrine and is based on Paul’s epistles Jesus never preached Universal Salvation and neither did the Apostle Paul,

It is beautiful, the whole plan of God. Sometimes hard to swallow but beautiful.

Joh 1:29 - The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away thesinoftheworld.

Did that say just the sin of Israel? No

Ro 3:25 - Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

1Jo 2:2 - And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Whole world or just israel? Does it still seem like it is a Paul idea? Do I need to bring in some Isaiah and Ezekial? How about some Psalms? Heck pick a book im pretty sure there something in there that can be used.

my only concern it that it can be taken as meaning that one can live whatever kind of life and that in the end Salvation awaits you, and I understand that to the follower of this doctrine even Satan will join the party, at a much later time, but he will be saved. How successful is this denomination? It is so lenient that it should fill their churches; I know that they are not, but do you have an idea of why is this so?

No one is going to be saved “just anyway”. Those raised in the resurrection to Judgment will go through severe judgment in the Lake of Fire/fiery trails/second death/ just as His elect is going through it now. Yes the elect is now going through it in this age.

Yes even satan will be. First you must understand that Satan and his ministers reside in the heavens (Eph. 12:11,)"the devil....against spiritual wickedness in high [Gk; epouranios--'celestials/heaven'] and the earth (Rev. 12:9 is not a one time occurance).

[1] "That in the dispensation of the fulnesss of times he might gather together in one ALL in the Christ, both that in the heavens and that in the earth" (Eph. 1:10, Concordant Literal New Testament).

[2] "For by Him were ALL things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible [Satan and demons] whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers [including 'principalities and powers' of Eph. 6:12] : all things were created by Him, and for Him...And, having made peace through the blood of the His cross, by Him to RECONCILE ALL unto Himself; by Him, I say whethe4r they be those in earth or those in heaven" (Col. 1:16 & 20).

[3] "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in HEAVEN, and those in EARTH, and those UNDER THE EARTH. And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ IS LORD [I Cor. 12:3b], to the glory of God the Father" (Col. 2:9-11).

[4] "...Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the SIN OF THE WORLD" (John 1:29b).

[5] "For He [Jesus] must reign till He has put ALL ENEMIES [Satan is an enemy [Matt. 13:39] under His feet...that God may be ALL in All [that includes ALL God's creatures]" (I Cor. 15:25 & 28).

Etc., etc., etc.

I am not associated with any denomination so I wouldn’t know. There are many who believe in universalism but still don’t have a clue about it. The reason I believe churches aren’t filled is this is probably one of Gods major truths and some have an idol of the heart where they want to believe “I chose Christ and they didn’t so they get what they deserve” and besides most churches don’t teach this they teach on hell. Also if one truly believed Gods Word and not just what their pastor is telling them they wouldn’t be in a church anymore-----

Re 18:4 - And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Comeoutofher, my people, that ye be not partakers ofher sins, and that ye receive not ofher plagues.

This verse is directly talking to the christain churches

 

[angellous_evangellous]

*Angellous does 4 hail Mary's and prays that he forgets all about this thread*

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Come Lord Jesus!

 

[sojourner]

Come Lord Jesus!

Quickly!

 

[Oberon]

Quickly!

Perhaps a better hotline is needed than the papacy. Why isn't Jesus on facebook or myspace?

 

[Quagmire]

Come Lord Jesus!

Yeah, we don't want him to miss this.

 

[free spirit]

i will just say this briefly. For those who don't understand the plan of God, yes it would seem as if God is a monster when you read the Word and see what is going on in the world today and realize everything is of God.

Eph 3:9 - And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

1Co 8:6 - But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Etc. etc. What part of all there is not understood? There is no evil in God. Who can judge God anyway to say He is evil? Man? Isn't that exactly what this passage in Romans is addressing? Those who don't know the plan of God will call God a monster or whatever because He loved less Esau and chose Jacob and showed more favor to him. And for all you who say you have one shot to make it to "heaven", Esau is out of luck because IT WAS GOD WHO LOVED HIM LESS RIGHT? God didn't show him favor and now Esau will be terrorized in a fire for all eternity and it was Gods fault. "But why does God still blame us" or the way you put it "That makes God a monster". Yes that would make God a monster if that was the end of His plan. Yet it isn't and God will show favor/mercy to all. Those who know not the plan of God call Him a monster because they criticize what they don't know and question God for making things the way they are for this age.

I just got a question. how does it feel to know YOU (not just you in particular) have fulfilled some prophecy---

Ro 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

So according to you every one will be saved even the worse of the worse, because he made them that way, and so we should not punish the murderers, the violent aggressors, etc. etc.
Ro 11:33 -O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

So he also keeps us in ignorance, which is contradictory to 1 Corinthians 2 - 4 to 16.
Please read my post 251, and learn that God knows our character and how we will develop before we were born, and he chooses us accordingly. As i said to you in the beginning, you are engrossed in the scripture, but I am also sorry to say that you do not understand, for if it was as you say, our efforts are useless, with your idea all come to a big zero as Paul with sarcasm said let us eat drink and be merry, for our destiny has already been decided.

 

[emiliano]

To AK4,
Well this is what it boils down to, Christian believe what Jesus said and quoting the Epistles of the Apostle is not what guides our minds and when it come to study and understand the NT Jesus rules. The new covenant is with Him as our mediator and He clearly stated that not all will be saved.

Mat 26:28
For this is My blood of thenewcovenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.​

Mar 14:24
And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.​

Many does not =all. So you will understand that not many of us can subscribe to this doctrine, Paul is the one that said “All” Jesus said many and actually He even said few will find the way and Jesus is the way. I am curious, what will be the consequence to us Christian for not swallowing this doctrine? A while back we had a new Church that came for the US with a prophet and the whole works “The Paulinos” and they really went onto the Paul said thing and they made him the Messiah, they had a radio program in the same station that my Church had their and they went on air just before we went so we got to discuss religion with them, they did not succeed and I have not heard of them again. Do you accept that the scriptures that you cited (all are saved) contradict what the Lord preached in His ministry?

 

[sojourner]

To AK4,
Well this is what it boils down to, Christian believe what Jesus said and quoting the Epistles of the Apostle is not what guides our minds and when it come to study and understand the NT Jesus rules. The new covenant is with Him as our mediator and He clearly stated that not all will be saved.

Mat 26:28
For this is My blood of thenewcovenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.​

Mar 14:24
And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.​

Many does not =all. So you will understand that not many of us can subscribe to this doctrine, Paul is the one that said “All” Jesus said many and actually He even said few will find the way and Jesus is the way. I am curious, what will be the consequence to us Christian for not swallowing this doctrine? A while back we had a new Church that came for the US with a prophet and the whole works “The Paulinos” and they really went onto the Paul said thing and they made him the Messiah, they had a radio program in the same station that my Church had their and they went on air just before we went so we got to discuss religion with them, they did not succeed and I have not heard of them again. Do you accept that the scriptures that you cited (all are saved) contradict what the Lord preached in His ministry?

Your argument really depends, not upon "what Jesus taught" vs. "what Paul taught," but upon who wrote what. The only quotations we have from Jesus are in the gospels. So we must depend upon those writers.

In fact, in your gospel references, Matthew is copying from Mark. Mark was written around 70 c.e., while the Pauline letters were all written prior to that. Therefore, the information we have in the letters is earlier than the information we have in Mark. What do you suppose the odds are that the earlier texts have the more correct information?

 

[Oberon]

What do you suppose the odds are that the earlier texts have the more correct information?

That depends on not only the purpose and genre of the text but the model of transmission. Paul was at least as well informed of the Jesus tradition as the gospel authors. However, the purpose of Paul's writing was generally not to record or transmit Jesus' teaching. There are a few points where Paul explicitly says that that he is using a command of the Lord or not, but for the most part the letters are representative of Paul's theology and Paul's understanding.

The gospels, on the other hand, are much more likely to contain accurately transmitted teachings. They may (and they do) include particular views or redactions of the authors, but they transmit Jesus' teachings with a fair degree of accuracy.

Basically, earlier does not necessarily equal better, when it comes to what our sources on Jesus' teachings.

 

[sojourner]

That depends on not only the purpose and genre of the text but the model of transmission. Paul was at least as well informed of the Jesus tradition as the gospel authors. However, the purpose of Paul's writing was generally not to record or transmit Jesus' teaching. There are a few points where Paul explicitly says that that he is using a command of the Lord or not, but for the most part the letters are representative of Paul's theology and Paul's understanding.

The gospels, on the other hand, are much more likely to contain accurately transmitted teachings. They may (and they do) include particular views or redactions of the authors, but they transmit Jesus' teachings with a fair degree of accuracy.

Basically, earlier does not necessarily equal better, when it comes to what our sources on Jesus' teachings.

What you say is true. However, the poster was coming at this -- I felt -- from a position of proximity to the source. Since neither can claim anything closer than 2nd-generation, the only "proximity" that is left is one of time. The epsitles are earlier.

 

[AK4]

So according to you every one will be saved even the worse of the worse, because he made them that way, and so we should not punish the murderers, the violent aggressors, etc. etc.

Not according to me. According to scriptures all will be saved. They will be judged. And to judge is to set straight. They will be chastised. And i believe we all know what chastising is. No one will be saved just anyway.

So he also keeps us in ignorance, which is contradictory to 1 Corinthians 2 - 4 to 16.
Please read my post 251, and learn that God knows our character and how we will develop before we were born, and he chooses us accordingly. As i said to you in the beginning, you are engrossed in the scripture, but I am also sorry to say that you do not understand, for if it was as you say, our efforts are useless, with your idea all come to a big zero as Paul with sarcasm said let us eat drink and be merry, for our destiny has already been decided.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded F41 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, F42 eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway

Is it not God who done this? Does God want all of the jews to accept Him and come to the knowledge of Christ right now? How come you "christains" only apply this to israel--that God caused them to not come to the knowledge of Christ and yet will save all israel but for anyone else its different? How come some of yall can see that most of the jews cannot free will themselves into coming to Christ or be given faith unless God gives it to them yet when applied to the rest of the world its different? Was it not God who spoke to them in parables so that "seeing they may see but not percieve and hearing they hear not"? If God wouldnt/wont let them then why dont they free will it?

Besides most of mankind think they are wise anyway, but yet God calls their wisdom foolishness. So in their own minds they decieve themselves. Let me repost what you put

learn that God knows our character and how we will develop before we were born (right, now who determines our steps and gives someone the heart/mind to believe "oh if they had such a heart in them" and "i will replace their heart of stone with a heart of flesh"), and he chooses us accordingly . As i said to you in the beginning, you are engrossed in the scripture, but I am also sorry to say that you do not understand, for if it was as you say, our efforts (uh oh, did you say efforts? Sound like you are saying we are saved by works and what we do and not by the grace of God. You are contradicting yourself) are useless (yes useless. Isnt that what the scriptures teach? Can YOU do something thatll make God say "you know i think i will pick him because he does communion 6 times a day, but forget sally she does tithe enough. She only tithes 9.9%"), with your idea all come to a big zero (wow so if all is dependent and of God and God works (who does it?) ALL things for the good/after the counsel of His own will it all comes to a big zero? Maybe you need to reevaluate yourself if you cant accept some of the truth I (not me but God) is showing you) as Paul with sarcasm said let us eat drink and be merry, for our destiny has already been decided (how about this then, use your free will to change your destiny by free willing yourself out of death)

 

[Oberon]

Since neither can claim anything closer than 2nd-generation, the only "proximity" that is left is one of time. The epsitles are earlier.

Certainly I agree with what you say above. At best, the gospels are equal with Paul with respect to access to the Jesus tradition (in that, at best, the authors had access to Jesus' disciples), and the epistles are certainly earlier.

 

[sojourner]

Certainly I agree with what you say above. At best, the gospels are equal with Paul with respect to access to the Jesus tradition (in that, at best, the authors had access to Jesus' disciples), and the epistles are certainly earlier.

I suppose it could be argued that Matthew and Luke had, perhaps the best access to the historical Jesus, through Q (probably produced around 40 c.e.)

 

[Oberon]

I suppose it could be argued that Matthew and Luke had, perhaps the best access to the historical Jesus, through Q (probably produced around 40 c.e.)

Matthew and Luek (as you know) used Mark and (almost certainly) a written or oral source we call Q. The fact that they used these sources does not mean they did not also have access to followers of Jesus, seperate oral traditions, etc. I would tend to argue that Luke at the least (and probably Mark as well, while Matthew is less certain) had access to eyewitnesses. However, it is a historical fact that Paul DID have access to eyewitnesses.

 

[AK4]

To AK4,
Well this is what it boils down to, Christian believe what Jesus said and quoting the Epistles of the Apostle is not what guides our minds and when it come to study and understand the NT Jesus rules. The new covenant is with Him as our mediator and He clearly stated that not all will be saved.

Mat 26:28
For this is My blood of thenewcovenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.​

Mar 14:24
And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.​

Many does not =all. So you will understand that not many of us can subscribe to this doctrine, Paul is the one that said “All” Jesus said many and actually He even said few will find the way and Jesus is the way.

I knew you would use the many not = all argument thats why i chose the verses i did. Lets do the all thing here

“But I say unto you, That every [pas—ALL] idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment” (Matt. 12:36).

“But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every [pas—ALL] word that proceeds out of the mouth of God” (Matt. 4:4).

“For all [pas—ALL] have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” (Rom. 3:23).

Would you argue that “all” means only “some” or "as many as" in these verses? So why and ONLY when it comes to everyone being saved this argument comes up?

Lets move from all now. How about this

“The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death” (I Cor. 15:26). (which comes from Ho 13:14

Notice what happens at the Judgment of the ungodly:

“And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death” (Rev. 20:14).

If the second death does not destroy “death,” then we have a problem, the “last enemy death” will never be destroyed or abolished, which contradicts I Cor. 15:26). “Death” (all death) will be abolished—then the only alternative is that all must live and be sons and daughters of God, rather than “enemies” which will all be abolished


Now lets get to some of Jesus' words. Now are these verses true or is Jesus a liar? “and the scripture cannot be broken” (Jn. 10:35). So anyone, everyone, who is lost, a human, or a sinner, Jesus must save.


“For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost” (Luke 19:10).


“For the Son of man [Gk: anthropos---human] is not come to destroy [Gk: apollumi—destroy, lose, perish] men's [Gk: anthropos—human] lives, but to save them” (Luke 9:56).


Are you seeing it yet? This is not me or any universalists doctrine. This is the Word of God.

I am curious, what will be the consequence to us Christian for not swallowing this doctrine? A while back we had a new Church that came for the US with a prophet and the whole works “The Paulinos” and they really went onto the Paul said thing and they made him the Messiah, they had a radio program in the same station that my Church had their and they went on air just before we went so we got to discuss religion with them, they did not succeed and I have not heard of them again. Do you accept that the scriptures that you cited (all are saved) contradict what the Lord preached in His ministry?

Judgment and dont take that lightly. Its as if these christains despise the Word of God. But its not just believing in the reconciliation of all that will save you, its only those who do the will of God who will enter the kingdom


No it doesnt contradict. There are ages/times/seasons for everything and not all are to be saved in this present age or the next age ("anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit....") but after that age eventually all must be saved because He---


“Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure. .... I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it” (Isa. 46:40-41).

thats funny that that you said they made Paul into the Messiah because even Paul prophecied about that

1Co 1:12 - Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co 3:4 - For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

 

[AK4]

In all sincerity, most folks within the major protestant denominations would disagree with you. The national accreditation association would disagree with you, too.

I agree. Most of the world think and believe the same.

The scriptures also tell me that the sky is a hard dome, separating the waters of heaven from the waters of earth. Yes, God is creator, but God is also love. Since God is love, and we know that "love does not insist on its own way," we know that God invites (many references for this action) but does not force us to love God. A good case in point is the pericope of the Prodigal. Another is the Jacob Saga.

I know "force" sounds like a harsh word so lets say invite or inspires someone to love Him. In the prodigal son do you notice there is a cause that invites or inspires the son to turn back to his father. It subtle aint it? this is how God does it. The son thought he had made the decision to turn back to his father but in reality look at all the causes that inspires or invites him to come back. It was God who gave him the heart to come back.


You still refuse to see it dont you?

These is my opinions on the scriptures: I do not subscribe to sola scriptura. Therefore, a Biblical proof is, for me, not the final word.

How can a pastor say "a Biblical proof is, for me, not the final word."? :thud:

According to the particular passage of I Cor. 15:24. But not according to orthodox Tradition.

Exactly. Orthodox tradition is the problem really.

 

[free spirit]

Not according to me. According to scriptures all will be saved. They will be judged. And to judge is to set straight. They will be chastised. And i believe we all know what chastising is. No one will be saved just anyway.

Your theory is not new the catholic church has a place called purgatory, (a chastising place) a laxative or cleaning place.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded F418 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, F42 eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway

Yes but you missed the point, in reality he is saying (If they are so incline let us abandon them to themselves)

Is it not God who done this? Does God want all of the jews to accept Him and come to the knowledge of Christ right now? How come you "christains" only apply this to israel--that God caused them to not come to the knowledge of Christ and yet will save all israel but for anyone else its different? How come some of yall can see that most of the jews cannot free will themselves into coming to Christ or be given faith unless God gives it to them yet when applied to the rest of the world its different? Was it not God who spoke to them in parables so that "seeing they may see but not percieve and hearing they hear not"? If God wouldnt/wont let them then why dont they free will it?

God's word is a two edges sword for on whom he finds mercy he will give more mercy, and on whom he finds compassion he will give more compassion, because his spirit will come in them. therefore the merciful and compassionate will be saved, because mercy and compassion will be heaped upon them from God. The rest will go from bad to worse because they will be abandoned by God.

Besides most of mankind think they are wise anyway, but yet God calls their wisdom foolishness. So in their own minds they decieve themselves. Let me repost what you put
learn that God knows our character and how we will develop before we were born (right, now who determines our steps and gives someone the heart/mind to believe "oh if they had such a heart in them" and "i will replace their heart of stone with a heart of flesh"), and he chooses us accordingly . As i said to you in the beginning, you are engrossed in the scripture, but I am also sorry to say that you do not understand, for if it was as you say, our efforts (uh oh, did you say efforts? Sound like you are saying we are saved by works and what we do and not by the grace of God. You are contradicting yourself) are useless (yes useless. Isnt that what the scriptures teach? Can YOU do something thatll make God say "you know i think i will pick him because he does communion 6 times a day, but forget sally she does tithe enough. She only tithes 9.9%"), with your idea all come to a big zero (wow so if all is dependent and of God and God works (who does it?) ALL things for the good/after the counsel of His own will it all comes to a big zero? Maybe you need to reevaluate yourself if you cant accept some of the truth I (not me but God) is showing you) as Paul with sarcasm said let us eat drink and be merry, for our destiny has already been decided (how about this then, use your free will to change your destiny by free willing yourself out of death)

You have some convincing arguments that seem to be wise, but as you know God's way are different from the way of men. for to him who has, more shall be given, to him that does not have even that that he has should be taken away from him.
But if you say who gives in the first place our discussion is getting us no where.
For might as well discuss who has made me short and you toll, maybe also our personality and trait a decided by the behavior of our ancestries.
A question for you, am I correct that somewhere it is written "the sins of the fathers will be visited upon the children for seven generations, and the blessings of the fathers will be poured upon the children for many generation, or words to that affects.

 

[emiliano]

Your argument really depends, not upon "what Jesus taught" vs. "what Paul taught," but upon who wrote what. The only quotations we have from Jesus are in the gospels. So we must depend upon those writers.

In fact, in your gospel references, Matthew is copying from Mark. Mark was written around 70 c.e., while the Pauline letters were all written prior to that. Therefore, the information we have in the letters is earlier than the information we have in Mark. What do you suppose the odds are that the earlier texts have the more correct information?

Correct and we also have to weight in the fact that the Apostle Paul was not a follower in the Lord’s ministry, that he was not a witness to the discourses and that the writer of the four Gospels were, we must also consider that what we have of the Gospels is copies of copies. Having said this; my statement/argument that the Apostle Paul contradict the Lord’s teaching on Salvation stands. Another interesting thing about his Epistles is his use of I.

Rom 16:17
Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them.
Rom 16:19
For your obedience has become known to all. Therefore I am glad on your behalf; but I want you to be wise in what is good, and simple concerning evil.
1Cr 4:15
For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet [you do] not [have] many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
1Cr 4:16
Therefore I urge you, imitate me.
1Cr 5:9
I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people.
1Cr 5:11
But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner--not even to eat with such a person.
1Cr 7:6
But I say this as a concession, not as a commandment.
1Cr 7:12
But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her. ​

There are more reference to I Paul references than to what the four Gospels witness to the Lord’s discourses, there are little mentions of what the Lord taught so you are right it really depends, not upon "what Jesus taught" vs. "what Paul taught," but upon who wrote what.
The only quotations we have from Jesus are in the gospels. So we must depend upon those writers. Amen to that.

 

[sojourner]

I agree. Most of the world think and believe the same.

Oh, that's right. Because the world is inherently "evil," and "of the flesh." Therefore, education is also "evil" and "of the flesh." Never mind that it's the teaching of the Church, which is the Body of Christ -- who, by the way, was also fully human...

I know "force" sounds like a harsh word so lets say invite or inspires someone to love Him. In the prodigal son do you notice there is a cause that invites or inspires the son to turn back to his father. It subtle aint it? this is how God does it. The son thought he had made the decision to turn back to his father but in reality look at all the causes that inspires or invites him to come back. It was God who gave him the heart to come back.

This is the most absurd case of eisegesis I've seen in a while.

You still refuse to see it dont you?

In this eisegetical format, yes. In a proper exegetical format, no.

How can a pastor say "a Biblical proof is, for me, not the final word."?

Because we know that a Biblical proof also depends upon reason, tradition and experience.

Orthodox tradition is the problem really.

You don't like your fellow members-in-Christ much, do you!