Do you understand the New Testament

[free spirit]

Thats an easy one. Jesus is the truth, the light, the way, the door etc etc. What exactly am i trying to prove you wrong on?

You cannot even answer a simple question, and yet you know so much.
Relax and anjoy. WHAT IS TRUTH?
All believers, regardless of denominational creed, serch for the assurance of understanding what is truth, because it seems that truth in this world is continually changing, as in what was true yesterday is no longer true today. however you can be assured that God's universal truth is still the same as it has always been, unaltered and unalterable.
As darkness cannot put out the light, even so lies and speculations cannot alter the truth. But unfortunately the lies and speculations have the capacity to lure us to focus on other unimprtant things, those things may be not necessarily bad, nevertheless they are sufficient to cause us to miss the true purpose of our call, which is to walk towards God's universal unchangeable truth.
You want to know, what is God's universal unchangeble truth; God willing I will do just that.
In the gospel of John 18 - 33 to 38, we read of an exchange between Pilate the Roman governor and Jesus; it unfold in the following manner.
"Pilate therefore entered again into the praetorian, and summoned Jesus, and said to him; are you the king of the Jews? Jesus answered, are you saying this on your own initiative, or did others tell you about me? Pilate answered, I am not a Jew, am I? Jesus answered. My kingdom is not of this world, if my kingdom were of this world, then my servant would be fighting, that I might not be delivered up to the Jews; but as it is, my kingdom is not of this realm. Pilate therefore said to him, so you are a king? Jesus answered; you say correctly that I am a king. for this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears my voice. Pilate said to him, WHAT IS TRUTH? And when he had said this, he went out again to the Jews, and said to them, I FIND NO GUILT IN HIM.

If we superficially read the above exchange between Pilate and Jesus we will also be left asking, WHAT IS TRUTH? But if we look more closely some interesting facts will emerge. Like; He has come into the world to bear witness to the truth. And then Jesus makes an extraordinary statement about the human race, "Everyone who is of the truth hears my voice." What does it mean? And how did Jesus, by coming into the world bare witness to the truth? Or, how can anyone be of the truth?
The answer of course, through God's wisdom, is staring at us in the face, we can all see it, but it can't be perceived, unless it is spiritually revealed to us. Because by the wisdom of God, the answer to "what is truth?" came out from Pilate's own mouth, in the form of his judgement of Jesus. "I FIND NO GUILT IN HIM." In other words, "HE IS HOLY" or "HE IS WITHOUT SIN" So we can see that, by being holy even unto death he has fulfilled his primary mission, which speaks thus, "He has come into the world to bear witness to the truth." In other words Jesus has shown us in words and deeds how to be holy, or how to be of the truth. (Which is not by mere chance the heart of the gospel.)
And so we come to the most simple and worldwide understood principle, because on the day that we are also to face judgement, that is all the truth that matters, for God will judge the world only according to our holiness or lack of it. ( Matthew 25 - 35 to 46.)
Think about it, is it possible to believe in God, and yet practice sin? Is believing some denominational doctrine or an historical fact enough to be saved? Does not even Satan believe?
But by the grace of God, we of the human race have been given a golden opportunity; to be of the truth, which enables us to hear his still and holy voice; all we have to have is the sincere desire to be holy, (remember Cornelius ACTS 10 - 1 to 4, and if we are a true believer that should not be too difficult for us. After that the Holy Spirit will lead each individual into repentance, for he knows the right way for each one of us, and as we obey the prompting of the Holy Spirit, our inner attitude toward our fellow men and ourselves will change for the better, until we are at peace with God, at peace with ourselves and with the world.
And on the day of judgement the righteous judge also will utter from his mouth, I FIND NO GUILT IN HIM. On that day we will be changed from, "who is of the truth" into "who is part of the truth," What more is there to say? For I am fully convinced that if one doesn't know anything, about anything, but practises the beliefs that are in Jesus and, or, lives his life by the principles of the gospel of holiness, he, i am certain is acceptable to God.

AK4 TRUTH = GUILTLESS - NOTHING ELSE MATTERS

 

[AK4]

Originally Posted by free spirit
I am in agreement with you on "rituals" "tithing" "faith only" "once saved, always saved" and all the others mentioned here. But we do have free will, what you are suggestin would make us puppets, and this debate would be useless, our lives would be a joke, it would be raw cruelty from God.

Your own words will condemn you so be careful. Look to think that God is in control of all things is not raw cruelty if you know what His plan/will is and what is the destiny of all mankind. If you dont know what that is then yes, this "strange work that He is performing" would seem very cruel. And yes you just did say this.

Look at the example God shows us of king Nebuchadnezzar. He thought that he accomplished everything by himself through his fabled free will and power (which is exactly what you people who think you have free will think).

The king spoke, and said, is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of MY power, and for the honor of MY majesty?" (Dan. 4:29-30).


Sounds like the voice of a true "free-willer" doesn’t it? This is how all free-willers speak and believe. "I am responsible for my actions and you are responsible for your actions. I can will to do good if I so desire, and you can will to do good if you so desire. God does not, and will not, ever interfere with man’s free will, free choice, free moral agency." Is this a nursery rhyme we are reading in Dan. 4, or is this the word of God?


Well we know God punishes him for having such a heart in him right? God sends him off to learn who is in control of everything and says the king wont return until he learns this and what does the king learn

"And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up my eyes unto heaven, and my understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honored Him that lives for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing [‘nothing’ is pretty small]: and He does according to His Will.."

What is this that we are reading? "God does according to HIS will...?" But if this statement is true, then where pray tell, does that leave MAN’S will?

Yes, we are about to settle this controversy regarding man’s fabled free will that supposedly enables him to will contrary to what God has ordained MUST HAPPEN.

"...And He [God] does according to HIS will in the inhabitants of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth, and none... [How many? ‘NONE.’ How many are left out? ‘NONE.’ How many have a free will that can will against God’s declared intentions? ‘NONE.’ How many stubborn, dyed-in-the-wool, free-willers will repent and believe this declaration of God Himself? ‘NONE.’] ...and NONE can stay [restrain] His hand, or say unto Him, What are You doing?" (Verse 35).

It doesn’t get any clearer than this. If you can’t accept this truth and repent of your egotistical, self worth, and self superiority, thinking that you can thwart the very intentions of God’s Own will any time you desire, then you too will be PUNISHED for your stout and arrogant heart:

"Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honor the King of heaven, all Whose works are Truth, and His ways justice: and those that walk in pride He is able to abase [HUMBLE]" (Verse 37).

God told Daniel that only the "wise" would understand these things:

"And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and NONE of the wicked shall understand; but the WISE shall understand" (Dan. 12:9-10).


Free will contradicts:

"I know that, whatsoever God does, it shall be for ever [Heb:’for the eon’]; nothing can be put to it, nor anything taken from it; and God does it, that men should fear before Him" (Ecc. 3:14).
​

 

[AK4]

freespirit
I knew that this would separate you from the true spiritual; I do not obey any rule I do not need them, that does not mean I am lawless, but I have extablished the universal law in my heart, in other words I have Christ in me, so now I can love God with all my heart, and I can love my neighbore like myself. that is to say I live within Christ's character. Like in Adam character I can do nothing but sin, in Christ character I cannot longer sin. I am certain this will shock you.
1 john 3 - 9, "No one who is born of God practice sin, because his seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

The law is spiritual and you are to keep the law in spirit. Therefore if you are keeping the law in spirit you are not free from any rule. To say it is written in your heart in one breath and then say i dont have to obey rules in another is a contradiction. Which is it?

Obey/obedience is worship. What did Christ say "why do you call me Lord and not DO WHAT I SAY?" Sounds like He is giving orders/commandments and you are to obey something right?

Now about this sin thing and no its not a shocker because so many say that same thing

1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

Only God knows the heart of men so if you claim you are in the Light and you are sinless then it is between you and God and for you to judge if this true. If you dont do this then He will do it for you.

I belive that all religions, that are worthy to be called religion, lead to Christ, and Christ leads you to God.

Well what can i say? i will just leave this one alone for now

 

[AK4]

What about Adam and Eve? I believe in the doctrine of election, what you are referring to is the elect, and God in His sovereignty draws the elect to the Savoir but as you know not all are drawn, the proofs of this is that we have atheists, pagans and heretics, is God the creator of their unbelief?

Well, yes and no. After all He is the creator of all. He gave us the hearts/mind that we have. He also created the serpent who is the one who decieved Eve. Eve was not decieved at first. She didnt freely (without a cause) choose to eat of the fruit. The serpent caused her to make the choice she made. The serpent played on her heart and mind. The serpent was used by God. You dont believe that then what led Jesus up to the wilderness to tempted? Could God have prevented Eve from eating of the tree? Of course but He didnt-----

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]"What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." [/FONT]
(Rom. 9:14-15).

So think of it this way, God could have elected them back then but that was not in His plan. That is why faith is a gift from God and not something we freely will or bring about on our own. He choses us, not us choosing Him. Its an ability He gives to man so God is responsible for the salvation of all--believers and nonbelievers. Atheists and the like will have their judgment and will be set straight and saved in the resurrection of the unjust

1Ti 4:10 - (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.
There is a saying that goes like this

ACT like it all depends on you and PRAY like it all depends on God

Desires are the products of our Volition and the Lord says that we can desire to come to Him/the Savior, stating that even those that are not of the elect can be saved if they desire to follow the Lord, so we have the elect and the non-elect with a shot at Salvation. Peter and Saul were of the elect they could not do other ways.

Is it not He who puts the desire there first for someone to have the volition to come to God? think about it, before his conversion did Saul know of his election? What of an atheist or a satanists? The same thing that happened to Saul can happen to an atheists. So who is the cause again? who is the one who chooses? Can an staunch satanists come to God on their own volition without any intervening from God? Can a devote jew come to Christ without God?

Now man can make an evil use of His will and reject God as in the case narrated in Zec 7:9-14

Perfect selection of verse emiliano notice verse 13

7:13 "'When I called (notice who makes the first action and if you really wanted think about it you can take this verse all the way back to when God first called them out of Egypt), they did not listen; so when they called (or you can basically say so when finally their volition (the act of willing, choosing, or resolving; exercise of willing) was to call on the Lord), I would not listen,' says the Lord Almighty

 

[AK4]

AK4 TRUTH = GUILTLESS - NOTHING ELSE MATTERS

Is that so? Okay so many of these terrorists who kill in the name of their god most likely felt guiltless for doing their despicable acts. In thier heart and mind they probably thought they were doing a good deed for their god.

So at the Great White Throne Judgment you are saying because they felt guiltless because of the truth they believed God will say and i quote "I FIND NO GUILT IN HIM". Yes like i was saying to sojourner there is a little truth to what you are saying but unltimately it is not the full truth.

Notice:

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Doesnt it seem as if some of these people will think they were guiltless? They prophecied (preach and teach), they cast of demons (doctrines of men and devils) and performed miracles. Sounds like they were pretty sure of themselves doesnt it? If i could prophecy, cast out demons and peform miracles i would think i was without sin and guiltless too. But what does the Lord say "23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Did you see that? They are still evildoers/workers of iniquity! Whats the definition of those words used in the greek

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Home > Lexicons > Greek > Anomia [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Strong's Number: 458[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Browse Lexicon[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Original Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Word Origin[/FONT]ajnomiva[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]from (459)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Transliterated Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]TDNT Entry[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Anomia[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]4:1085,646[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Phonetic Spelling[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Parts of Speech[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]an-om-ee'-ah [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Noun Feminine [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Definition[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]

1. the condition of without law
   1. because ignorant of it
   2. because of violating it
2. contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

[/FONT]





So lets see these who are prophecying, casting out demons and performing miracles are still in contempt and violation of law. Do you see it? You still have to follow the law, which is spiritual. You have to do something like obey and do what He says. If you find yourself guiltless but still keep committing adultery by lusting for other woman does that mean God will say to you and i quote "I FIND NO GUILT IN HIM"

One last point. Will not those who know the truth and dont obey it be given "more lashes" because they didnt obey the truth. If just knowing your are guiltless is all there is to truth then this verse means nothing.

Lu 12:48 - But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
To know the truth that stealing is wrong and yet you go and commit it, does that make you guiltless because Christ died for your sins?

 

[AK4]

No, that's not what proof-texting is.
Proof-texting is: "the practice of using decontextualised quotations from a document ... to establish a proposition." (From Wiki).

Okay so when a precept like "God is love" is establish in and throughout His Word and and its here a little and there a little you claim that i and others are prooftexting? Is it prooftexting showing all the different verses showing the resurrection of the dead? How God being the Saviour of ALL men? How about the verses that prove God is not a trinity? How about the verses that show which baptism is the true baptism of Christ? How about all the prophecies of a Messiah coming littered throughout the OT? You are doing the same thing jews try to say about Jesus not being the Messiah.

If it's done in the context of worship, yes it is.
Since Jesus is the perfect sacrifice, once for all, subsequent sacrifices are no longer necessary.

So why do em'?

Through misunderstanding, (usually through such irresponsible practices as eisegesis or proof-texting). Not through misinterpreting single terms taken out of context. Translation includes context.

Sometimes it does, but the deliberate mistranslating of words like sheol/hades and eonian/olam is not strictly from "prooftexting" or taking it out of context because the context would tell them IT SHOULDNT BE mistranslated like the way the do in some of these translations

Of course. I'm actually preaching on them in two days' time.
In Matthew's context, they show the desire for true relationship should outweigh the desire to hang on to practices that tend to obscure that relationship (especially as that relationship informs the community of who they are in relationship to God). My context may be a little different, since my community is in a different place chronologically, culturally, and spiritually than Matthew's.

You missed the whole point of that parable. Waaaay off. If you can know one parable and you will know them all then that means they all basically are talking of the same thing. What does your (mis)interpretation of those parable have to do with this one

20 Again he asked, "What shall I compare the kingdom of God to? 21 It is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount of flour until it worked all through the dough."

Nothing!!

What, indeed? I'm afraid to ask!

I bet you are because to know that God is Soveriegn and control of all is Very frightening to those who want to cling on to their fabled soveriegnity (free-will)


If, by your use of the term "Fire" (captital "F") you mean to equate it with the "Word," (captial "W"), and if you equate the "Word" with the Bible, which it seems obvious that you're doing, then, yes, it's an Xy thing, since the Church compiled the Bible as we have it.

Oh brother and yes they also kept all the OT writings to gether even before Jesus' time. Not. Its not a christain thing. But notice Jesus did say this Fire was already kindled

You're referencing "Hallelujah!" from Messiah. And, no. Our congregation doesn't sing that.
But we do sing hymns, that refer to Jesus' kingship. And it is solid orthodox theology to do so.
If you want to be heretical, go right ahead. Jesus loves you just as much.

Heretical huh? So tell me since you are a pastor and should know the scriptures, Does He reign for ever and ever?

 

[sojourner]

Okay so when a precept like "God is love" is establish in and throughout His Word and and its here a little and there a little you claim that i and others are prooftexting? Is it prooftexting showing all the different verses showing the resurrection of the dead? How God being the Saviour of ALL men? How about the verses that prove God is not a trinity? How about the verses that show which baptism is the true baptism of Christ? How about all the prophecies of a Messiah coming littered throughout the OT? You are doing the same thing jews try to say about Jesus not being the Messiah

Proof-texting.
proof-texting.
proof-texting.
proof-texting.
proof-texting.
proof-texting.
Yes. All are examples of proof-texting.

 

[sojourner]

So why do em'?

You suggesteed it -- not me.
You tell me why we should do them.

Sometimes it does, but the deliberate mistranslating of words like sheol/hades and eonian/olam is not strictly from "prooftexting" or taking it out of context because the context would tell them IT SHOULDNT BE mistranslated like the way the do in some of these translations

I don't believe it is a deliberate mistranslation. Hell is the closest we can come, culturally, to the Hebrew concept of Sheol. Sometimes translation isn't very exact, because there's no way the exact transliteration would make sense to us.

You missed the whole point of that parable. Waaaay off.

Nope. Sorry to disappoint you, but, no.

What does your (mis)interpretation of those parable have to do with this one

20 Again he asked, "What shall I compare the kingdom of God to? 21 It is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount of flour until it worked all through the dough."

Nothing!!

Well, yes, nothing, except for loosely. The parable of the yeast tells us that God is willing to get dirty for us (the understanding being that we cannot purify ourselves enough for God). It's about reconciliation.

If that happens to coincide with the idea of trashing tightly-held practices that "insure" our purity, then it does dovetail with the other quite nicely.

BTW, what makes you think that "all parables mean the same thing?" What do you think they mean?

I bet you are because to know that God is Soveriegn and control of all is Very frightening to those who want to cling on to their fabled soveriegnity (free-will)

That's right, it's dam* frightening! Because if we don't have free will, then we are not free to love God.

Oh brother and yes they also kept all the OT writings to gether even before Jesus' time. Not. Its not a christain thing. But notice Jesus did say this Fire was already kindled

Who else compiled the Bible but Christians???

So tell me since you are a pastor and should know the scriptures, Does He reign for ever and ever?

As a member of the clergy, I'm not only familiar with the Bible, but with all other parts of Christian Tradition, as well. Yes. Christian Tradition holds that Christ reigns at God's right hand.

 

[free spirit]

The law is spiritual and you are to keep the law in spirit. Therefore if you are keeping the law in spirit you are not free from any rule. To say it is written in your heart in one breath and then say i dont have to obey rules in another is a contradiction. Which is it?

I do not have to obey the law, for through Christ i became the law.

Obey/obedience is worship. What did Christ say "why do you call me Lord and not DO WHAT I SAY?" Sounds like He is giving orders/commandments and you are to obey something right?

If i can disobey him, It certainly proof that I have free will

Now about this sin thing and no its not a shocker because so many say that same thing

1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

The above scriptures have to be allocated to the proper times in our lives, for we all go through that, therefore you must know were you are at, for the last thirty years was work in progress for me, now by the grace of God I am in the details stage, the polishing as it were.

Only God knows the heart of men so if you claim you are in the Light and you are sinless then it is between you and God and for you to judge if this true. If you dont do this then He will do it for you.
Well what can i say? i will just leave this one alone for now

I am no special, for the call to holiness is for all men

 

[free spirit]

Is that so? Okay so many of these terrorists who kill in the name of their god most likely felt guiltless for doing their despicable acts. In thier heart and mind they probably thought they were doing a good deed for their god.

So at the Great White Throne Judgment you are saying because they felt guiltless because of the truth they believed God will say and i quote "I FIND NO GUILT IN HIM". Yes like i was saying to sojourner there is a little truth to what you are saying but unltimately it is not the full truth.

You still don't get it do you! It is nothing to do with you, the judge after an inquisition has to declare you guiltless, like Pilate did to Jesus.
Notice:

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Doesnt it seem as if some of these people will think they were guiltless? They prophecied (preach and teach), they cast of demons (doctrines of men and devils) and performed miracles. Sounds like they were pretty sure of themselves doesnt it? If i could prophecy, cast out demons and peform miracles i would think i was without sin and guiltless too. But what does the Lord say "23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Did you see that? They are still evildoers/workers of iniquity! Whats the definition of those words used in the greek

Yes they had faith to remove mountains, but they did not have love, if you do not have love you do not know God, so the Lord never knew them.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Home > Lexicons > Greek > Anomia [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Strong's Number: 458[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Browse Lexicon[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Original Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Word Origin[/FONT]ajnomiva[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]from (459)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Transliterated Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]TDNT Entry[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Anomia[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]4:1085,646[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Phonetic Spelling[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Parts of Speech[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]an-om-ee'-ah [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Noun Feminine [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Definition[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]

1. the condition of without law
   1. because ignorant of it
   2. because of violating it
2. contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

[/FONT]





So lets see these who are prophecying, casting out demons and performing miracles are still in contempt and violation of law. Do you see it? You still have to follow the law, which is spiritual. You have to do something like obey and do what He says. If you find yourself guiltless but still keep committing adultery by lusting for other woman does that mean God will say to you and i quote "I FIND NO GUILT IN HIM"

Love does not do harm to a neighbour, therefore love is the fulfilment of the law.

One last point. Will not those who know the truth and dont obey it be given "more lashes" because they didnt obey the truth. If just knowing your are guiltless is all there is to truth then this verse means nothing.

Yes they are the ones that sit on the fence, double minded ones.

Lu 12:48 - But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
To know the truth that stealing is wrong and yet you go and commit it, does that make you guiltless because Christ died for your sins?

Christ died for you sins, and that you may not sin in the future, if you sin wilfully after receiving the knowledge of holiness there is no longer forgiveness. Hebrews 10 - 28 - 29, "Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, he has insulted the spirit of grace.

 

[Heneni]

Adam and Eve were created with a free will. They lost their free will when they sinned, but gained the knowledge of good and evil, however they were not free to choose to do the right thing. They listened to satan, and whoever you listen to becomes your master. Therefore satan became there master, and slaves dont have free will. Jesus came to set us free, so that we could be FREE to choose GOD. Those who put their faith in Him to save them, HAS their free will restored. The others, have their will controlled by their master, who has blinded their eyes to the fact, making them think, that they have free will, when infact they are not free to choose God, but are slaves to sin.(This is I believe what has happened to atheists. Their will has been taken captive, and they are not free, proven by the fact that they cannot percieve god)

Blood is where god keeps an account of sin. When we sin, the sin is imputed into our blood. Therfore our blood is where our guilt is stored, and when a man who is innocent has his blood spilled,the blood would call out for vengence. Like abels blood did. The spilling of blood that is not innocent is just. Every human has blood, and because they have blood imputed with sin, they die. Its the blood that brings death. The wages of sin is death, the wages, in other words the reward for sin, is stored up somewhere, and it is stored in our blood. Therefore our blood is what makes it impossible not to die.

Jesus had blood. His blood was without sin, since he never sinned himself, yet the ENTIRE world's sin was imputed into his blood and his blood was spilled once and for all for all mankind. Unless Jesus had the sin of mankind imputed into his blood, he never would have been able to die. He died, because the sin imputed into his blood demanded its wages, which was death.

 

[sojourner]

Adam and Eve were created with a free will. They lost their free will when they sinned, but gained the knowledge of good and evil, however they were not free to choose to do the right thing. They listened to satan, and whoever you listen to becomes your master. Therefore satan became there master, and slaves dont have free will. Jesus came to set us free, so that we could be FREE to choose GOD. Those who put their faith in Him to save them, HAS their free will restored. The others, have their will controlled by their master, who has blinded their eyes to the fact, making them think, that they have free will, when infact they are not free to choose God, but are slaves to sin.(This is I believe what has happened to atheists. Their will has been taken captive, and they are not free, proven by the fact that they cannot percieve god)

First of all, this doesn't hold with the literary scheme of Genesis. Satan doesn't appear in Genesis. A serpent does, though.
Second, I'm not sure that, for the writer, sin was at issue. Wisdom was what was at issue, since the serpent is an ancient symbol for wisdom.

Jesus had blood. His blood was without sin, since he never sinned himself, yet the ENTIRE world's sin was imputed into his blood and his blood was spilled once and for all for all mankind. Unless Jesus had the sin of mankind imputed into his blood, he never would have been able to die. He died, because the sin imputed into his blood demanded its wages, which was death.

This only makes sense if you buy into Substitutionary Atonement. Which is in serious debate as to it's theological validity.

 

[emiliano]

Ak4,

Well, yes and no. After all He is the creator of all. He gave us the hearts/mind that we have.

The problem is us we were created very good but not supremely good as our creator, Adam and Eve (allegorically representing Humanity) were created with an ability to choose what seemed good to them this ability/God gift is what allows us to choose what is good, when humanity chooses to do what is evil it does it by it own will, God reveals His goodness to all of us when we open our eyes every morning we know of God’s goodness. Not to choose Him is sin/evil there are many things all around us (the thing made) none of them supremely good as the creator. Who should we choose?

He also created the serpent who is the one who decieved Eve. Eve was not decieved at first. She didnt freely (without a cause) choose to eat of the fruit.

Copout! Eve had the word of God given to her by Adam and is interesting to notice that when Eve told it to the serpent she changed the wording of it and this gave the clue to the serpent that this creature did not believe that God was good, that she could do better than Him, if you look deep into this story this is not only disobedience but treason.

The serpent caused her to make the choice she made. The serpent played on her heart and mind. The serpent was used by God. You dont believe that then what led Jesus up to the wilderness to tempted? Could God have prevented Eve from eating of the tree? Of course but He didnt-----

My take on this is that Jesus was equipped with the same weapon that humanity was equipped with at the confrontation in the Garden of Eden, the word of God and Jesus used it without any alterations or doubt “it is written” in the Garden it should have been “God said” so the serpent was not the cause of the fall but humanity’s misuse of God’s gift and that happens to be the same cause of our sins.

"What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!
For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
(Rom. 9:14-15).

This verse is part of the context as well it identifies to whom this is addressed to.

Rom 9:13
As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." ​

It is directed to those that reject God’s gifts or to those that misuse them.

So think of it this way, God could have elected them back then but that was not in His plan. That is why faith is a gift from God and not something we freely will or bring about on our own. He choses us, not us choosing Him. Its an ability He gives to man so God is responsible for the salvation of all--believers and nonbelievers. Atheists and the like will have their judgment and will be set straight and saved in the resurrection of the unjust.

Meditate on Esau’s story, why did God liked him less? Esau was to have the heir’s primogeniture to inherit Isaac’s blessing but choose to exchange it for food. Why God did like Jacob better?

http://www.biblestudytools.com/Onli...+4:10&version=niv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1

1Ti 4:10 - (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

AH! Universal Salvation, one of the most beautiful Pauline derived doctrines:shout, let look into this one because it contradict Jesus preaching, Not to mention the preaching of the other Apostles.

Mat 7:13
"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide [is] the gate and broad [is] the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. ​

So we have many of all men going into destruction. Do these ones have a Saviour? Notice that the Lord says “Enter by the narrow gate” choose that gate in preference of the broad gate, He did not say wait for me to choose what gate you must go and I’ll drag you through it.
God is Merciful thus He draws us all to His kingdom

Mat 7:14
Because narrow [is] the gate and difficult [is] the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. ​

He told us of the good of our God and tell as of the great reward that awaits those that “Enter by the narrow gate”

Luk 13:24
"Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. ​

 

[emiliano]

First of all, this doesn't hold with the literary scheme of Genesis. Satan doesn't appear in Genesis. A serpent does, though.
Second, I'm not sure that, for the writer, sin was at issue. Wisdom was what was at issue, since the serpent is an ancient symbol for wisdom.
This only makes sense if you buy into Substitutionary Atonement. Which is in serious debate as to it's theological validity.

I always thought that this was a matter of obedience and trust not a matter of wisdom; also I thought that the serpent was used by Satan, a spirit because spirits are not to directly interfere with the creation (physical realm) which is the dominion of man that was created from the dust of the earth.

Gen 2:7
And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Gen 2:8
The LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed. ​

 

[free spirit]

To AK4 and to sojourner

Could you please read the following three verses and tell me what you think of them, I am using the "New American Standard Bible" you can use your own bible if you like. the word daughter upparently was not in the original scriptures.
1st. Corinthians 7 - 36 - 37 - 38, "but if any man thinks that he is acting umbecomingly towards his virgin daughter, if she should be of full age, and if it must be so, let him do what he wishes, he does not sin; let her marry, but he who stands firm in his heart, being under no constraint, but has authority over his own will, and has decided this in his own heart, to keep his own virgin daughter, he will do well.
So then both he who gives his own virgin daughter in marriage does well, and he who does not give her in marriage will do better."

Question.....what if anything these three verses are saying to us

 

[sojourner]

I always thought that this was a matter of obedience and trust not a matter of wisdom; also I thought that the serpent was used by Satan, a spirit because spirits are not to directly interfere with the creation (physical realm) which is the dominion of man that was created from the dust of the earth.

Gen 2:7
And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Gen 2:8
The LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed. ​

No, because the writers of Genesis had no concept of Satan.

 

[Oberon]

To AK4 and to sojourner

Could you please read the following three verses and tell me what you think of them, I am using the "New American Standard Bible" you can use your own bible if you like. the word daughter upparently was not in the original scriptures.
1st. Corinthians 7 - 36 - 37 - 38, "but if any man thinks that he is acting umbecomingly towards his virgin daughter, if she should be of full age, and if it must be so, let him do what he wishes, he does not sin; let her marry, but he who stands firm in his heart, being under no constraint, but has authority over his own will, and has decided this in his own heart, to keep his own virgin daughter, he will do well.
So then both he who gives his own virgin daughter in marriage does well, and he who does not give her in marriage will do better."

About the precences of the word daughter: The word in question is the greek parthenos which meant "maiden" more or less but also implies virginity. However, as 1. Cor 7:36 makes clear, the word daughter is implied by the text: ei de tis aschemnonein epi ten parthenon autou nomizei/if any man believes he behaves improperly towards the maiden of him (i.e. his maiden). In Paul's culture (likewise for Greeks and romans) a female belonged to a male all the time. Parthenos implies that in this case the female in question is not married, as such she belongs to the father (hence his parthenos). In other words, although the word "daughter" is not there, it is clearly implied by the text.

 

[free spirit]

About the precences of the word daughter: The word in question is the greek parthenos which meant "maiden" more or less but also implies virginity. However, as 1. Cor 7:36 makes clear, the word daughter is implied by the text: ei de tiis aschemnonein epi ten parthenon autou vomizei/if any man believes he behaves improperly towards the maiden of him (i.e. his maiden). In Paul's culture (likewise for Greeks and romans) a female belonged to a male all the time. Parthenos implies that in this case the female in question is not married, as such she belongs to the father (hence his parthenos). In other words, although the word "daughter" is not there, it is clearly implied by the text.

Yes but what if anything these three verses are saying to us

 

[free spirit]

Adam and Eve were created with a free will. They lost their free will when they sinned, but gained the knowledge of good and evil, however they were not free to choose to do the right thing. They listened to satan, and whoever you listen to becomes your master. Therefore satan became there master, and slaves dont have free will. Jesus came to set us free, so that we could be FREE to choose GOD. Those who put their faith in Him to save them, HAS their free will restored. The others, have their will controlled by their master, who has blinded their eyes to the fact, making them think, that they have free will, when infact they are not free to choose God, but are slaves to sin.(This is I believe what has happened to atheists. Their will has been taken captive, and they are not free, proven by the fact that they cannot percieve god)

Blood is where god keeps an account of sin. When we sin, the sin is imputed into our blood. Therfore our blood is where our guilt is stored, and when a man who is innocent has his blood spilled,the blood would call out for vengence. Like abels blood did. The spilling of blood that is not innocent is just. Every human has blood, and because they have blood imputed with sin, they die. Its the blood that brings death. The wages of sin is death, the wages, in other words the reward for sin, is stored up somewhere, and it is stored in our blood. Therefore our blood is what makes it impossible not to die.

Jesus had blood. His blood was without sin, since he never sinned himself, yet the ENTIRE world's sin was imputed into his blood and his blood was spilled once and for all for all mankind. Unless Jesus had the sin of mankind imputed into his blood, he never would have been able to die. He died, because the sin imputed into his blood demanded its wages, which was death.

It is an interesting theory, can you support it with plausible arguments.

 

[Oberon]

Yes but what if anything these three verses are saying to us

We are starting from two very different views, and so I doubt anything useful can come from me in this discussion (although I have been following it). I simply wanted to let you know why you find the word daughter in your translations, although it is not technically in the texts.