Do you understand the New Testament

[free spirit]

LOL. Now werent you the one who said something in your OP that said people will say stuff about you and your bad grammar because of your "knowledge" of the scriptures and yet you call me a fruit cake out of the blue?

Sorry for been unkind to you, but God is very simple he has to be to reach the most uneducated person on the planet so God summise all his misteries by saing "you must be holy for I am holy" nothing else is needed; you abviously are a deep thinker.
I get into difficulty because I see errors in the scriptures, errors that I can proof with other scriptures, nevertheless they are not received at all, because they believe that the scriptures are perfect as they are. They are under a strong delusin.

No matter it doesnt bother me in the least and i wont respond back the same. But what you consider the "worthless details" of this so-called free will is in my opinion and many like minded individuals as me is the biggest, or as the scriptures put it, THE strong delusion God was going to send in the last days and until one can "step" down from "their throne" and let the true God sit on His throne then that true God will always only at best be "in the midsts" of that person and never have Him "IN" them.

Our free will is paramount to God, He will not violete our free will. because he is choosing for himself a family, the call "you must be holy for I am holy" is a call to felloship with him, as you know when your son is an adult he is equal to you, you are still the father but your bondage with him is a natural mutual love and respect.

Check the scriptures and notice how Jesus is JUST in the midsts of those who are just called compared to being IN those who are the called AND chosen. Those "worthless details" will keep you at being just one of the called. Many are called, few are chosen.

You make me feel bad, "those worthless details" Yes screws and bolts are needed to hold the mashinery together they are not worthless, but let as look at the mashinery. have you read my thread "RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD" Please do, it will explain to you my position.

 

[free spirit]

If we are not free to make choices independent of God, then there is no love relationship between humanity and Divinity. Hence, there is no reconciliation and no salvation. Indeed, there can be no God, unless a love relationship exists. Which is the point of the NT.

VERY WELL SAID:clap

 

[AK4]

Once again, God cannot will us to love God, or what we do is not love at all, but coersion.
In order for God to be God, free will must exist, for that's the only way love can happen.

So the ALL POWERFUL, SOVERIEGN, ALMIGHTY, OMNIPOTENT God who says every knee will bow and confess that He is Lord, but they cant confess that He is Lord unless His spirit is in them and that He only gives His spirit to those who loves Him, but He is the ONE THAT CAUSES them to love Him in the first place, because His pleasure is that everyone to come to the knowledge of the truth and He says He will do all His pleasure and nothing that He says comes back void cannot will us to love Him?

Get outta town. Have you read your bible? Everything i just stated above is in there---would you like for me show you?

You make a silly statement about love and free will when you cant distinguish between choice and free will? Do you have a wife/husband? Lets say kids? Do your kids love you on their own free will (per your definition), meaning there is NOTHING AT ALL you have done to influence/cause/make/force/inspire or any other such word them to love you? Tell your spouse that there was absolutely NOTHING AT ALL that made you love them. Nothing!! You just love them because you WILLED it and they did and still do nothing to influence/cause/make/force/inspire you to love them at.

See how silly it is? :foot:

 

[AK4]

Sorry for been unkind to you, but God is very simple he has to be to reach the most uneducated person on the planet so God summise all his misteries by saing "you must be holy for I am holy" nothing else is needed; you abviously are a deep thinker.
I get into difficulty because I see errors in the scriptures, errors that I can proof with other scriptures, nevertheless they are not received at all, because they believe that the scriptures are perfect as they are. They are under a strong delusin.


The greek and hebrew are, but these translations arent. No translation is perfect. But to say the originals as we have them arent perfect is like saying God is the author of confusion


Our free will is paramount to God, He will not violete our free will. because he is choosing for himself a family, the call "you must be holy for I am holy" is a call to felloship with him, as you know when your son is an adult he is equal to you, you are still the father but your bondage with him is a natural mutual love and respect.


I can show example after example in the scriptures of how God doesnt give us free will. Tell what is so good about it if "all have sinned", save Jesus, and nobodys free will kept them sinning and "falling short of the glory of God"? Its failed every human 100% of the time, yet people hang on to it like its precious. If someone gave you a christmas present and it was broke the very time you got it and you try to fix yet it breaks immediately after you fix it, what good is it?

You make me feel bad, "those worthless details" Yes screws and bolts are needed to hold the mashinery together they are not worthless, but let as look at the mashinery. have you read my thread "RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD" Please do, it will explain to you my position.

My intention is not to make you feel bad, im sorry. I was just making a point. I will look at your thread later

 

[sojourner]

So the ALL POWERFUL, SOVERIEGN, ALMIGHTY, OMNIPOTENT God who says every knee will bow and confess that He is Lord, but they cant confess that He is Lord unless His spirit is in them and that He only gives His spirit to those who loves Him, but He is the ONE THAT CAUSES them to love Him in the first place, because His pleasure is that everyone to come to the knowledge of the truth and He says He will do all His pleasure and nothing that He says comes back void cannot will us to love Him?

Get outta town. Have you read your bible? Everything i just stated above is in there---would you like for me show you?

You make a silly statement about love and free will when you cant distinguish between choice and free will? Do you have a wife/husband? Lets say kids? Do your kids love you on their own free will (per your definition), meaning there is NOTHING AT ALL you have done to influence/cause/make/force/inspire or any other such word them to love you? Tell your spouse that there was absolutely NOTHING AT ALL that made you love them. Nothing!! You just love them because you WILLED it and they did and still do nothing to influence/cause/make/force/inspire you to love them at.

See how silly it is? :foot:

The whole first paragraph is nothing more than "mush gospel." You've taken several texts out of context and cobbled them together to create some new message of your own volition. Talk about ":foot:!"

I think you know I've read the Bible.

Yes. My children loved me, because that is the innate thing for human babies to do. Human babies love and trust their parents from the get-go, until they're taught not to.

I have told my wife that she did nothing to make me love her. What I have also told her is that my love for her comes from outside myself and flows through me to her. The origin of that love is God. God loves, because God is love. My love for my wife is nothing more than a reflection of God, which I acknowledge.

What does Paul tell us about love? In I Cor. 13, we read:
"Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way..."

God cannot make us love God. If God did that, it would be coersion and not love. When God created us, God gave up some of God's power, and shares that power with us. That's the only way we can have a love relationship with God.

We don't love because we will to love. We love because we choose to love. but those choices we are able to make, we are able to make because will is ours to make those choices.

We must return to God of our own volition, because God created us of God's own volition.

 

[AK4]

The whole first paragraph is nothing more than "mush gospel." You've taken several texts out of context and cobbled them together to create some new message of your own volition. Talk about ":foot:!"

No its called rightly dividing the word, comparing spiritual with spiritual without contradicting any scripture or precept. Your god of context doesnt stand up to verses like these

Isa 28:10 - For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little."
So what about that context thing again?

I think you know I've read the Bible.

Yeah and so many have read the constitution and still dont understand it.

Yes. My children loved me, because that is the innate thing for human babies to do. Human babies love and trust their parents from the get-go, until they're taught not to.

Really? Gee then the way i feel about my dad is not genuine because of what you say i love him from get-go yet i never knew or cared for him (and yes ive seen him a couple times in my life). so your theory falls flat again. Besides that baby wont show love to you until/unless you showed love to them first.

I have told my wife that she did nothing to make me love her. What I have also told her is that my love for her comes from outside myself and flows through me to her. The origin of that love is God. God loves, because God is love. My love for my wife is nothing more than a reflection of God, which I acknowledge.

Right she did absolutely nothing. She popped outta nowhere and boom you fell in love. Her looks, attitude, smarts or anything else you can think of didnt cause/make/influence you to fall for her. Amazing. I can agree with the last sentence though.

What does Paul tell us about love? In I Cor. 13, we read:
"Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way..."

God cannot make us love God. If God did that, it would be coersion and not love. When God created us, God gave up some of God's power, and shares that power with us. That's the only way we can have a love relationship with God.

So God being a father to us all, his children, coerses us "when the goodness of Him leads us to repentance/love Him" is somehow different than a human father who shows goodness to his children which CAUSES/INFLUENCES/MAKES/INSPIRES them to love him? I guess that human father has infinged on his children "free will" also and that his childrens love then is not geniune.

We don't love because we will to love. We love because we choose to love. but those choices we are able to make, we are able to make because will is ours to make those choices.

Didnt i agree that we make choices. But i said those choices are not free from causes. Hence your choices are influenced by causes (conscience or subconscience). Thus your causes that affect your choices influences your will. Thus no free will. Behold i tell you mystery (lol just kidding)--God is in control of everything through circumstances and He is the one who has/had predetermined everything from the beginning (Isa 46:10). This is how God is Soveriegn and free will cannot exist. You do agree that He is soveriegn right?

We must return to God of our own volition, because God created us of God's own volition.

Please show me a verse where someone came to God on there own volition where God didnt cause/influence/inspire heck lets throw in force if ya like.

Im waiting

 

[AK4]

have you read my thread "RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD" Please do, it will explain to you my position.

Yes i just read your thread and yes i agree with you on the corruption of scriptures and at least God has given you the gift to recognise this. For many cant "see" this yet.

But there is still some more understanding you need like your example of temptation. God does use evil for the purpose of good, but to stick with what you see as maybe a contradiction here, this is what a friend showed me on this very subject

"And lead us not into temptation…"

Can this statement be true? Doesn’t the Scripture declare:

"…for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts He any man" (James 1:13)?

So why should we pray that God will "lead us NOT into temptation?" Good question.

In addition, we have this apparent contradiction regarding our Lord;

"Then was Jesus led up of THE SPIRIT into the wilderness TO BE TEMPTED of the devil" (Matt. 4:1).

Are not these Scriptures contradictory? I’ll admit it takes some careful consideration to untangle this apparent enigma. Here are the facts:

Temptation has always been associated with the work of Satan throughout the Bible. Beginning with mother Eve, then Jesus, Paul, James, Peter, and John, we have ample testimony concerning the beguiling deceitfulness of Satan.

While it is true that "…God cannot be tempted with evil, neither temps He any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed" (James 1:13-14), we must also consider that wherever temptation is, there also is Satan:

"And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise… And the woman said [to God] The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat" (Gen. 3:6 & 13).

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ" (II Cor. 11:3).

"Then was Jesus led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil… All these things will I [Satan] give you [Jesus], if you will fall down and worship me" (Matt. 4:1 & 9).

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts [desires, temptations] of your father ye will do…" (John 8:44).

"Be sober; be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion walks about, seeking whom he may devour [swallow down]" (I Pet. 5:08).

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world…" (Rev. 12:9).

Satan, not God is the great tempter, and he has temped and deceived the whole world. But here is where God does come in. After we are tempted of Satan, God is our Redeemer:

"And the servant of the Lord must not strive, but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing [correcting] those that oppose themselves; if God peradvanture will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves [‘…but deliver us from the wicked one’ Matt. 6:13] out of the snare [Gk: ‘trap, temptation’] of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will" (II Tim. 2:24-26).

"For THINE is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen"

Heres something you may find interesting on spurious passages in the NT.http://www.bibletoday.com/htstb/spurious.htm

 

[free spirit]

Please show me a verse where someone came to God on there own volition where God didnt cause/influence/inspire heck lets throw in force if ya like.

Im waiting

John 6 - 35 to 40, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst. but i said to you, that you have seen me, and yet do not believe. all that the father gives me shall come to me, and the one who comes to me i will certainly not cast out. for i have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. and this is the will of him who sent me, that of all that he has given me i lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day."

 

[free spirit]

Young girls drive to have a family and kids is a major trap for one who had previously devoted themselves to Christ. "Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge"

I do not think you realise what you wrote here, but if it is what you intended, i am sorry to say but you are wrong absolutely, because family and children do not contradict your love for God. actually it improves your love of God.

 

[emiliano]

Hey i must not be too much of a fruitcake because i agree with ya here.
A worm.
ps i only have what God has given me and which is much, but oh so little.

Ok let’s go back to the free will and I like to point out at this stage that this is a bad choice to name for this ability that humans poses. As it has been pointed out to you Adam made a choice between what God commanded him and what the serpent made of that command (how it interpreted to Eve) God is omniscient and knew that Adam was going to use his gift in the wrong way and did not stop him, God did not stroke the serpent dead nor dragged Adam away, so Adam made his choice unhindered, free from any pressure whatsoever, free to choose whatever. Did God cause his bad choice? On the Satan thing, how can Satan oppose God if he has no free will? Who has dominion on Earth?

 

[emiliano]

Please show me a verse where someone came to God on there own volition where God didnt cause/influence/inspire heck lets throw in force if ya like.
Im waiting

Gen 3:6
So when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make [one] wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.​

What did God say to Adam concerning the fruit of that tree? “of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat” The man defense:

Gen 3:12
Then the man said, "The woman whom You gave [to be] with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate." ​

The man knew what God said yet choose what it seemed best to him, that came out of his own volition and it was evil (harmful) God on the hand gave him a commandment a law that is beneficial/ good.

 

[sojourner]

No its called rightly dividing the word, comparing spiritual with spiritual without contradicting any scripture or precept. Your god of context doesnt stand up to verses like these

Proof-texting has been rejected as a tool for Biblical scholarship for quite some time now.

Isa 28:10 - For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little."
So what about that context thing again?

If you would bother to read this in context, you'd find that it's a judgment, not a study formula.

Yeah and so many have read the constitution and still dont understand it.

Understanding the Constitution has nothing to do with Bible study.

Really? Gee then the way i feel about my dad is not genuine because of what you say i love him from get-go yet i never knew or cared for him (and yes ive seen him a couple times in my life). so your theory falls flat again. Besides that baby wont show love to you until/unless you showed love to them first.

Your familial issues really don't inform a definition of love.

Right she did absolutely nothing. She popped outta nowhere and boom you fell in love. Her looks, attitude, smarts or anything else you can think of didnt cause/make/influence you to fall for her. Amazing. I can agree with the last sentence though.

Those things are not her. They are things about her. I like those things, but they are not particularly the reasons why I love her.

So God being a father to us all, his children, coerses us "when the goodness of Him leads us to repentance/love Him" is somehow different than a human father who shows goodness to his children which CAUSES/INFLUENCES/MAKES/INSPIRES them to love him? I guess that human father has infinged on his children "free will" also and that his childrens love then is not geniune.

This doesn't make sense. Please try again, so that I understand what you're trying to say.

Didnt i agree that we make choices. But i said those choices are not free from causes. Hence your choices are influenced by causes (conscience or subconscience). Thus your causes that affect your choices influences your will. Thus no free will. Behold i tell you mystery (lol just kidding)--God is in control of everything through circumstances and He is the one who has/had predetermined everything from the beginning (Isa 46:10). This is how God is Soveriegn and free will cannot exist. You do agree that He is soveriegn right?

God always invites. God always acts first. We respond. We can choose to respond in any number of ways, or we can choose not to respond. The choice is ours. Because the choice is ours, the will must be ours, in order to make the choice.

God is sovereign, yes. But that sovereignty doesn't include micro-management.

Please show me a verse where someone came to God on there own volition where God didnt cause/influence/inspire heck lets throw in force if ya like.

As I've said, God always offers first. But offering, or inviting, are completely different from forcing, causing and coercing.

 

[AK4]

Gen 3:6

So when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make [one] wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.​

What did God say to Adam concerning the fruit of that tree? “of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat” The man defense:

Gen 3:12
Then the man said, "The woman whom You gave [to be] with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate." ​

The man knew what God said yet choose what it seemed best to him, that came out of his own volition and it was evil (harmful) God on the hand gave him a commandment a law that is beneficial/ good.

I agree. Volition is much better word than free will. heres the definition of volition

noun 1.the act of willing, choosing, or resolving; exercise of willing: She left of her own volition. 2.a choice or decision made by the will.3.the power of willing; will.

We have a will no doubt, but its not free from outside (or subconscience) influence. Now i hope someone wont say we have free volition

 

[AK4]

John 6 - 35 to 40, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst. but i said to you, that you have seen me, and yet do not believe. all that the father gives me shall come to me, and the one who comes to me i will certainly not cast out. for i have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. and this is the will of him who sent me, that of all that he has given me i lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day."

Nice try, but your own "proof" verse proves you wrong. Notice:

all that the father gives me shall come to me, and the one who comes to me i will certainly not cast out.

Which doesnt contradict "No one can come to the Son except the Father drags him"

Besides that didnt show someone coming to God on their own without outside influence from God.

 

[AK4]

I do not think you realise what you wrote here, but if it is what you intended, i am sorry to say but you are wrong absolutely, because family and children do not contradict your love for God. actually it improves your love of God.

Wow you really didnt see what i was talking about. Young girls tend to sexually active/immoral to try to find a mate, not putting God or the study of His Word first

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Young girls tend to sexually active/immoral to try to find a mate, not putting God or the study of His Word first

:beach:

 

[AK4]

Ok let’s go back to the free will and I like to point out at this stage that this is a bad choice to name for this ability that humans poses. As it has been pointed out to you Adam made a choice between what God commanded him and what the serpent made of that command (how it interpreted to Eve) God is omniscient and knew that Adam was going to use his gift in the wrong way and did not stop him, God did not stroke the serpent dead nor dragged Adam away, so Adam made his choice unhindered, free from any pressure whatsoever, free to choose whatever. Did God cause his bad choice? On the Satan thing, how can Satan oppose God if he has no free will? Who has dominion on Earth?

So you say Adam was unhindered right? I dont know how to keep this short because you have to know alot more to understand that Adam made his choice because of how much he loved her. Paul references this to how Christ died for His church. Christ didnt have to die for us and Adam didnt have to "die" for Eve. See if i was to fully explain this to you we would go into creation argument and how long the creation "days" were and how long Adam was without a mate to actually say...oh you know the verse as stated in the KJV so blandly "this is now bone of my bone...." when in other manuscripts you have Adam respond after God showed him Eve "AT LAST! this is now....." or "THIS IS IT! This is now....." You know extremely excited. So His volition or will was influenced because he loved her.

Satan is "not opposing" God if you will, but is doing his job that God created him to do. His was created a liar from the beginning, to be the accuser etc etc. satan has no free will either. He just like most humans probably thinks he does though because he has a carnal mind state also.

 

[AK4]

Proof-texting has been rejected as a tool for Biblical scholarship for quite some time now.

And this biblical scholarship you are relying is also the people who came up with all these false doctrines too.

If you would bother to read this in context, you'd find that it's a judgment, not a study formula.

Yet after Christ opened up the scriptures to all the apostles, that was exactly the formula they were using in all there letters. Peter does it immediately in the book of Acts. Pulling line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little and then Paul further explains it by saying make sure you are comparing spiritual with spiritual.

Understanding the Constitution has nothing to do with Bible study.

I figured you are smart enough to get the analogy.

Your familial issues really don't inform a definition of love.

Just proving a point to prove yet another person wrong

Those things are not her. They are things about her. I like those things, but they are not particularly the reasons why I love her.

those things now make you love her more and probably made your fall in love at first, i dont know, but to say she did/or not did absolutely nothing is amazing. Try telling your wife this "I love you baby. There is absolutely nothing you did to influence my free will to fall in love with you. One day i just free willed it out of the blue, without no influence or cause from any source and i fell in love with you. You did absolutely nothing. Nothing baby. I love you." Try it.

This doesn't make sense. Please try again, so that I understand what you're trying to say.

God, being a father to all mankind, say that we are His children. He does good things some of His children (the goodness of Him leads us to repentance) which CAUSES/INFLUENCES/MAKES/INSPIRES them love Him. Now is that somehow different than a human father who shows goodness to his children which CAUSES/INFLUENCES/MAKES/INSPIRES them to love him? Does the human father infringed on his children "free will"? Does that make his childrens love for him not geniune.

God always invites. God always acts first. We respond. We can choose to respond in any number of ways, or we can choose not to respond. The choice is ours. Because the choice is ours, the will must be ours, in order to make the choice.

Tell me, when the Word says the Elect are "predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will," can someone who God already "predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son" thwart Gods plan and purpose through thier "almighty" free will and choose not be conformed? Think about it.

God is sovereign, yes. But that sovereignty doesn't include micro-management.

Really? So if Jesus says the number of hairs on each of our heads are counted and known and this isnt micro-management then....:faint:

As I've said, God always offers first. But offering, or inviting, are completely different from forcing, causing and coercing.

Nahhh, there just nicer words, but they all pretty much mean the same. Actually i personally am glod God dragged me to Christ and forced me to learn His truths. ITS GREAT and it still feels as if i posess "free will".:yes:

 

[sojourner]

And this biblical scholarship you are relying is also the people who came up with all these false doctrines too.

Actually, usually the opposite is true.

Yet after Christ opened up the scriptures to all the apostles, that was exactly the formula they were using in all there letters. Peter does it immediately in the book of Acts. Pulling line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little and then Paul further explains it by saying make sure you are comparing spiritual with spiritual.

When the authors wrote the references, they assumed that the audiences would be familiar with the corpus of scripture. They weren't proof-texting.

I figured you are smart enough to get the analogy.

I figured you were smart enough to know that I was smart enough such that the analogy is useless.

Just proving a point to prove yet another person wrong

but it doesn't prove anything.

those things now make you love her more and probably made your fall in love at first, i dont know, but to say she did/or not did absolutely nothing is amazing. Try telling your wife this "I love you baby. There is absolutely nothing you did to influence my free will to fall in love with you. One day i just free willed it out of the blue, without no influence or cause from any source and i fell in love with you. You did absolutely nothing. Nothing baby. I love you." Try it.

"I love you just because of who you are."

God, being a father to all mankind, say that we are His children. He does good things some of His children (the goodness of Him leads us to repentance) which CAUSES/INFLUENCES/MAKES/INSPIRES them love Him. Now is that somehow different than a human father who shows goodness to his children which CAUSES/INFLUENCES/MAKES/INSPIRES them to love him? Does the human father infringed on his children "free will"? Does that make his childrens love for him not geniune.

If I understand correctly, we invite (if we're good parents) our children to love us from moment 1. Children are naturally disposed to respond to that invitation. God invites us to love God. We respond in some way to that invitation. We either accept, decline, or choose not to respond at all. But an invitation does not = force or coersion, or even influence. We are free to do as we wish.

Tell me, when the Word says the Elect are "predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will," can someone who God already "predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son" thwart Gods plan and purpose through thier "almighty" free will and choose not be conformed? Think about it.

Since that passage is in a document written to "the elect," it's written from their POV, and has nothing to say about either the non-elect, or their POV. Since those "elect" are the "elect," why would they want to be non-elect?

I'm not so sure the writer meant "predestined" in the same way you do.

Really? So if Jesus says the number of hairs on each of our heads are counted and known and this isnt micro-management then....:faint:

As pastor of a congregation, I make it my business to know everything that goes on with regard to the business of the congregation. but I don't manage every detail.

Nahhh, there just nicer words, but they all pretty much mean the same.

No, they don't. Invitation and offer leave the action up to what the receiver wants to do. Force, coersion and influence indicate that the receiver is doing the act against his will.

That's like saying that lovemaking and rape are "pretty much the same." But we know their impetus and essence is completely different.

 

[free spirit]

I agree. Volition is much better word than free will. heres the definition of volition

noun 1.the act of willing, choosing, or resolving; exercise of willing: She left of her own volition. 2.a choice or decision made by the will.3.the power of willing; will.

We have a will no doubt, but its not free from outside (or subconscience) influence. Now i hope someone wont say we have free volition

AK4, you are trying to split hairs here