Do you understand the New Testament

[sojourner]

But it was all in God's plan, for God knew that it was going to happen

Just because God knew it would happen doesn't mean that it was "in God's plan." If everything happens "according to God's plan," then free will is a farce.

like the death of Jesus was in God's plan.

Bull!

 

[free spirit]

Just because God knew it would happen doesn't mean that it was "in God's plan." If everything happens "according to God's plan," then free will is a farce.
Bull!

God is not restricted in time as we are, so he knows the end of all of this, we know the end because of the prophesies. However he does not interfere, he let us do what we will. our free will is paramount in all of God's plans.
You like it or not he will bring all of this to an end, when he has fulfilled his plan. Do you know what his plan is?

 

[free spirit]

TO Emiliano

The way ahead to this is to define what created in the image of God entails, then one must consider that very good does not equal perfect so we can tell that the created male and female were not perfect as God is, this is confirmed by the fact that they disobeyed and sinned with great sin, are we going to say that this means that God is not perfect? The first couple in the allegory had to choose between believing and trusting their creator, but they chose what seemed best to them, yet some believe that there is no free will in humanity, this clearly shows us that created in God’s image does not mean been like God, and that happens to be what the tempter told them and the chose him over God.

Gen 3:5
For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." ​

God created man in his own emage: to me it means this. He gave us the faculty of reason with the universal freedom to create thought and words
Because like him we can speak, like him we can create new things with our faculty of thought and words
our disobedience has made us more like him if we choose to do good.
or more like the devil if we choose to do evil, our choice
​

And there is no free will?

Our free will is paramount to God,s plan.

God create humanity very good and endowed with the capacity to choose God above everything, to love Him with all of their being but they misused the gift. It was God will that we freely choose God. The spiritual birth is again a promise to those that obey God.

Amen

 

[emiliano]

AK4.
Before I get into quoting scriptures that clearly show that we do have a will of our own and that we are allowed to use it for good or for evil; let have a look to the “created in God image once again”. You say: Eve had the pulls of the flesh (who gave her that type of flesh/heart, God right? If this is so, Eve was not created in God’s image because God is a spirit (an immaterial being). Eve and Adam were created with free will and if they would have use it for good (obey God) they would have not die, they have this ability and the will to use what is good, but they used it to do evil (something that is harmful, something that is lacking in goodness).
You are not only speculating but suggesting that God is lacking in goodness which is evil. That He punished them for no good reason. On the Adam thing, are you trying to justify his disobedience? To h whom was the command first given? (To the man, right?)

Gen 2:16
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; ​

Notice freely eat (as you choose).

Gen 2:17
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." ​

In response to the serpent Eve had another version of God’s command, she chose her own version

Gen 3:3
but of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.
Gen 3:6
So when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make [one] wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.​

Why Adam chose to eat of the fruit? To be like god/ make [one] wise, right?
Adam added to his sin by blaming God for his failure:

Gen 3:12
Then the man said, "The woman whom You gave [to be] with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate."
Mat 23:37
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under [her] wings, but you were not willing!
Jhn 5:40
But you are not willing tocometoMe that you may have life. ​

 

[sojourner]

God is not restricted in time as we are, so he knows the end of all of this, we know the end because of the prophesies. However he does not interfere, he let us do what we will. our free will is paramount in all of God's plans.
You like it or not he will bring all of this to an end, when he has fulfilled his plan. Do you know what his plan is?

It never included killing Jesus.
Again, just because God knows about it does not mean that it's part of God's plan. Sometimes we thwart God's plans.

 

[free spirit]

ak4.
before i get into quoting scriptures that clearly show that we do have a will of our own and that we are allowed to use it for good or for evil; let have a look to the “created in god image once again”. You say: eve had the pulls of the flesh (who gave her that type of flesh/heart, god right? If this is so, eve was not created in god’s image because god is a spirit (an immaterial being). Eve and adam were created with free will and if they would have use it for good (obey god) they would have not die, they have this ability and the will to use what is good, but they used it to do evil (something that is harmful, something that is lacking in goodness).
you are not only speculating but suggesting that god is lacking in goodness which is evil. That he punished them for no good reason. On the adam thing, are you trying to justify his disobedience? To h whom was the command first given? (to the man, right?)

gen 2:16
and the lord god commanded the man, saying, "of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; ​

notice freely eat (as you choose).

gen 2:17
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." ​

in response to the serpent eve had another version of god’s command, she chose her own version

gen 3:3
but of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, god has said, 'you shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.
gen 3:6
so when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make [one] wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.​

why adam chose to eat of the fruit? To be like god/ make [one] wise, right?
adam added to his sin by blaming god for his failure:

gen 3:12
then the man said, "the woman whom you gave [to be] with me, she gave me of the tree, and i ate."
mat 23:37
"o jerusalem, jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! how often i wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under [her] wings, but you were not willing!
jhn 5:40

but you are not willing tocometome that you may have life. ​

amen.

 

[free spirit]

It never included killing Jesus.
Again, just because God knows about it does not mean that it's part of God's plan. Sometimes we thwart God's plans.

Yes we can thwart God's plans this is our freedom, but the plan only gets delayed for eventually someone on the planey will do his will.

 

[emiliano]

It never included killing Jesus.
Again, just because God knows about it does not mean that it's part of God's plan. Sometimes we thwart God's plans.

What? Sorry but you don’t understand the NT this can’t be clearer and the discourse comes from a faithful source, the Lord Himself.

Mar 8:31
And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
Mat 16:21
From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.
Luk 22:15
Then He said to them, "With [fervent] desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer;
Luk 24:46
Then He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, ​

Remember what the lord said to Peter.

Mat 16:22
Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!"
Mat 16:23
But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men." ​

Jesus could have taken Peter advice and not go to Jerusalem, He chose to obey God although he knew what was going to happen, He chose to die, why did he do it? From whom did Jesus know these things? Just a Adam did isn’t it? Adam disobeyed but Jesus obeyed,

 

[sojourner]

Yes we can thwart God's plans this is our freedom, but the plan only gets delayed for eventually someone on the planey will do his will.

I believe that also. God's will -- God's world. god will get God's way, eventually.

 

[sojourner]

What? Sorry but you don’t understand the NT

LOL -- in fact, ROFL. He don't know me vewy well, do he!

the discourse comes from a faithful source, the Lord Himself.

Written by the gospel writers after the fact.

Mar 8:31
And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
Mat 16:21
From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.
Luk 22:15
Then He said to them, "With [fervent] desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer;
Luk 24:46
Then He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, ​

all written after the fact. Of course their theological take is going to be that it "had to happen that way." God used human sin to create something good, but God's plan never includes death, or torture, or terrorism.

Remember what the lord said to Peter.

Mat 16:22
Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!"
Mat 16:23
But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men."​

Because Peter knew Jesus in the wrong way -- like the demons did -- not because Jesus "had to die."

Jesus could have taken Peter advice and not go to Jerusalem, He chose to obey God although he knew what was going to happen, He chose to die, why did he do it?

He could have, but it would have ruined his credibility. the religious authorites drove him to it.​

 

[emiliano]

I believe that also. God's will -- God's world. god will get God's way, eventually.

And what is that will? From what I know of the scriptures and their purpose God always expresses it and expresses it so clear. I would like that you provide us with scriptures that support you claim (god will get God's way, eventually). My understanding of this is that the Salvation plan is what will save us and that we have this life to accept it.

Mar 14:24
And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.
Mat 26:28
For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. ​

 

[emiliano]

Sojourner.

all written after the fact. Of course their theological take is going to be that it "had to happen that way."

Ah I see, do you think that Christianity has the understanding of the Gospels all wrong? Do you think that they were written hundred plus years after the death of the apostle? As you surely know this has been discussed for years and there are no consensus on the age of the document that we have, but we know that they are copies of copies and that there are some that can be traced back to the time of the Apostles.

God used human sin to create something good, but God's plan never includes death, or torture, or terrorism.

What do you understand sin to be? IMO God created humanity very good and a man can’t never become completely evil thus God can save any human that He had Mercy upon. Sin to me is spiritual death, a separation from God which the situation when we are vulnerable.

Because Peter knew Jesus in the wrong way -- like the demons did -- not because Jesus "had to die."

He could have, but it would have ruined his credibility. the religious authorites drove him to it.

A publicity stunt????? Jesus God amongst man does not need any publicity stunt but the word of God

Jhn 17:8
For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.​

IMO what Peter did is to doubt that Jesus knew what was going to happen and he might even have doubt of the impending event at Calvary and that this was absolutely necessary for humanity’s sins reedemtion? Jesus probably heard the hissing of the serpent at that moment, he discerned the spirit that was in Peter and dismiss it as He did in the desert "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God” He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again, if we believe what Jesus taught we are His, we a Christians the end of the discourse is clear

Mar 8:38
For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels." ​

 

[AK4]

Adam and Eve had free will because they could choose to obey God or believe the tempter,

Tell me who is the one who gives someone to ability to obey God? Is it in man himself or is it from God to give ANYONE the ability to believe and obey Him? I have scriptures to say its all from God, not from man. I will wait to see some scriptures to show it is all from mans fabled free will to have the ability to obey and believe God

but even here Jesus had a choise to do God's will, because in the garden of Gethsemane the tempter tried to win him over, Jesus could have refiused to go to the cross. But with his sinless death he redeemed our freedom, therefore we are no longer slaves of sin, we now can freely choose one or the other.

No He didnt! Jesus couldnt do nothing but Gods will. The Father wouldnt let Jesus sin at all. Do you honestly think back in Genesis God says i will provide a Saviour for the world and then thousands of years later His Saviour appears but then His Saviour decides by His own fabled free will to not be the Saviour any more? What would that say of God? Do you people actually think about this stuff before saying this kinda crap?

So if you can disobey you still have your freedom.

Did you believe that scripture i quoted to you? "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do". If God created a person for dishonor in this lifetime then that is what they will be or vice versa. There is no way if God created something to be something, that that something can thwart what God intended that something to be. Am i going too fast for anyone?

Yes back then they were slaves of sin, so they were accustomed to it.

Back then? Has that changed now? Do we live on opposite planets? "As in the days of Noah....."

Yes God knows the heart of men, so he chooses them accordingly to what he sees in their heart, so if he sees faith and love he draws them to himself. But you have chosen what was in your heart, so freedom of choise is present here also.

I've shown you scripture and you refuse to believe them. Just another person "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as (a) god sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is a god. "

1Co 3:16 - Show Context Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 - Show Context If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
1Co 6:19 - Show Context What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
2Co 6:16 - Show Context And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

We still need to choose Jesus to be our guide, So freedom of choice is still here.
We were created for one purpose and one purpose only do you know what that purpose is AK4?

Yes i know the purpose but please enlighten me with what you may consider to be our purpose.

 

[AK4]

AK4.

Before ..... If this is so, Eve was not created in God’s image because God is a spirit (an immaterial being).

First God is not a spirit, He is spirit. Check the greek. The "a" shouldnt be there. So the premise for the rest of your argument is already flawed. Heres something to help ya out Englishman's Greek, Chapter 5, The Greek Article. And no i am not affiliated with this church or any organised church

You are not only speculating but suggesting that God is lacking in goodness which is evil. That He punished them for no good reason. On the Adam thing, are you trying to justify his disobedience? To h whom was the command first given? (To the man, right?)

God lacks nothing. Does God have knowledge of good AND evil? Who created evil? Is any of us (its not punished sorry) chastised for no good reason? For you to say this it shows you still dont know the plan of God.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&v=1&t=NKJV#comm/16#comm/16

Gen 2:16

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; ​

Notice freely eat (as you choose).

ROFLMAO!!!! Really?!! this is your proof? Thats just (im sorry im trying to be nice) pathetic. Really though, are you actually trying to say in that verse "freely" is representing freewill? Free will and choice are two different things. Freewill is freely willing something without ANY prior cause (so in the case of freewill you have to throw out God Himself because He is THE beginning cause of everything). Choice is choosing between two or more options which would indicate a prior cause for your decision (choice definition | Dictionary.com)

See the difference?


http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&v=1&t=NKJV#comm/17#comm/17

Gen 2:17

but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." ​

In response to the serpent Eve had another version of God’s command, she chose her own version

​

Gen 3:3
but of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.
Gen 3:6
So when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make [one] wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.​

Why Adam chose to eat of the fruit? To be like god/ make [one] wise, right?
Adam added to his sin by blaming God for his failure:

​

Gen 3:12
Then the man said, "The woman whom You gave [to be] with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate."
Mat 23:37
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under [her] wings, but you were not willing!
Jhn 5:40http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=2&v=1&t=NKJV#comm/17#comm/17​

But you are not willing tocometoMe that you may have life. ​

Who gave them a heart of unbelief, but will eventually give them a heart of belief?
De 5:29 - O that there were such an heart in them....
Eze 11:19 - And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Is this God who is going to do this or is it these peoples free will that will change there hearts of stone to flesh?

Again who is responsible for giving faith?

Eph 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
I could go on and on

 

[AK4]

Yes we can thwart God's plans this is our freedom,

What?!!! Where do i begin?


2Th 2:11 - And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

 

[free spirit]

Tell me who is the one who gives someone to ability to obey God? Is it in man himself or is it from God to give ANYONE the ability to believe and obey Him? I have scriptures to say its all from God, not from man. I will wait to see some scriptures to show it is all from mans fabled free will to have the ability to obey and believe God

Genesis 3 - 17, "then God said to Adam, because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which i commanded you, saying, you shall not eat from it." Adam disobeid the commandament of God on his own free will.
ence freedom of choice.verse 22, then the Lord God said, behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever." So here Adam can stretch his hand by his own free will. ACTS 17 - 30, 'therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all everywhere should repent." Repentance is a matter of choice the word "should" leaves the call to repentance open for our chooice.

No He didnt! Jesus couldnt do nothing but Gods will. The Father wouldnt let Jesus sin at all. Do you honestly think back in Genesis God says i will provide a Saviour for the world and then thousands of years later His Saviour appears but then His Saviour decides by His own fabled free will to not be the Saviour any more? What would that say of God? Do you people actually think about this stuff before saying this kinda crap?

God knew that Jesus was going to do his will for we read in ACTS 13- 22, "And after he had removed him, he raised up David to be their king, concerning whom he also testified and said, I have found in David the son of Jesse, a man after my heart, who will do all my will. john 8 - 29, "Jesus said, and he who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for i always do the things that are pleasing to him." Luke 22 - 42, "Father, if thou art willing, remove this cup from me; yet not my will, but thine be done." Again Jesus chose to do God's will and not his own."

Did you believe that scripture i quoted to you? "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do". If God created a person for dishonor in this lifetime then that is what they will be or vice versa. There is no way if God created something to be something, that that something can thwart what God intended that something to be. Am i going too fast for anyone?

Yes we give ourselves to Jesus, to will and to do with us as he pleases, that means he will choose for us our place in his body and ministry if he has given us any. again we choose to give ouselves to him.

Back then? Has that changed now? Do we live on opposite planets? "As in the days of Noah....."

Yes Back then we knew good and evil we choose to do good or to do evil, but we were slaves to sin. Romans 7 - 18 - 19, "for i know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the wishing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. for the good that i wish, i do not do; but i practice the very evil that i do not wish."
but with the coming of the Holy Spirit we are no longer slaves to sin for we read in Roman 8 - 11 - 12, " but if the spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised christ jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his spirit who indwells you. so then, brethren, we are under oblication, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh." so we have been freed from sin in the flesh. therefore if we sin is our choice now.

I've shown you scripture and you refuse to believe them. Just another person "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as (a) god sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is a god. "

I believe the scriptires but my interpretation is differet from yours

http://www.biblestudytools.com/Onli...+3:16&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1

1Co 3:16http://www.biblestudytools.com/Onli...+3:16&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1 - Show Context Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17http://www.biblestudytools.com/Onli...+3:16&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1 - Show Context If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/Onli...+3:16&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1

http://www.biblestudytools.com/Onli...+3:16&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1http://www.biblestudytools.com/Onli...+3:16&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1
If any man defile the temple of God, this indicate if we choose to defile, again we choose.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/Onli...+6:19&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1

1Co 6:19http://www.biblestudytools.com/Onli...+6:19&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1 - Show Context What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

http://www.biblestudytools.com/Onli...+6:19&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1http://www.biblestudytools.com/Onli...+6:19&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1
yes we are his, so better do his will, again our choise if we want to continue to be his.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/Onli...+6:16&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1

2Co 6:16http://www.biblestudytools.com/Onli...+6:16&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1 - Show Context And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/Onli...+6:16&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1http://www.biblestudytools.com/Onli...+6:16&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1
Again he says you are my, so do not be defiled, cleary our choese

Yes i know the purpose but please enlighten me with what you may consider to be our purpose.

Immagin a King that is looking for a family to inherit his kingdom, many family will try to be the chosen one; but anly one will succeed that family will be one with him the rest of humanity will be as close to him to the degree of their holiness.

 

[AK4]

Quote:
Gen 2:16

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; ​

Notice freely eat (as you choose).


ROFLMAO!!!! Really?!! this is your proof? Thats just (im sorry im trying to be nice) pathetic. Really though, are you actually trying to say in that verse "freely" is representing freewill? Free will and choice are two different things. Freewill is freely willing something without ANY prior cause (so in the case of freewill you have to throw out God Himself because He is THE beginning cause of everything). Choice is choosing between two or more options which would indicate a prior cause for your decision (choice definition | Dictionary.com)

See the difference?

Oh let me add something here to your freely theory----I lay out food for my dog to eat and tell him he can freely eat of this food----Does my dog now have free will too?

(jeopardy theme song plays)

 

[Freelancer7]

are the religious devotees, that is not new I guess because only religious devottes will kill a holy man like 2000 years ago.

love you all :cheer:

Well said
:clap

 

[angellous_evangellous]

***MOD ADVISORY***

Please keep it civil and avoid personal comments.

Thanks

 

[free spirit]

TO AK4 Yes

Oh let me add something here to your freely theory----I lay out food for my dog to eat and tell him he can freely eat of this food----Does my dog now have free will too?

A very bad example, the dog is subject to instinctive impolses, but if you give him the choise of two different meats he will choose his preferred dish.

(jeopardy theme song plays)