Do you understand the New Testament

[emiliano]

AK4,

First God is not a spirit, He is spirit. Check the greek. The "a" shouldnt be there. So the premise for the rest of your argument is already flawed. Heres something to help ya out Englishman's Greek, Chapter 5, The Greek Article. And no i am not affiliated with this church or any organised church

This makes no difference, it does not change the fact that created in his image does not mean that man is the imaged of God but that man can will of it own volition that man can will to act even contrary to God’s will. What does a spirit changes? Still we can see that it tha humans are very good but not supremely as their creator is.

Does God have knowledge of good AND evil?

Yes!

Who created evil?

You are blaming God?
God cannot create evil because evil is lack of goodness.

Is any of us (its not punished sorry) chastised for no good reason? For you to say this it shows you still dont know the plan of God.

And you do? Tell me is God unjust? If He chastises anybody for sinning which is His doing He is unjust and the God that I know is supremely just.

Really though, are you actually trying to say in that verse "freely" is representing freewill?

Well what else can it mean? "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat” the first thing that we can infer from this is there were no restriction on what the earlier generations of humans could choose as food, later on we find that God chose a particular people as His chosen people and gave them dietary law so really this stand as freedom of choice.
The principle of free will has religious, ethical, and scientific implications. For example, in the religious realm, free will may imply that an omnipotentdivinity does not assert its power over individual will and choices. In ethics, it may imply that individuals can be held morally accountable for their actions. In the scientific realm, it may imply that the actions of the body, including the brain and the mind, are not wholly determined by physical causality. The question of free will has been a central issue since the beginning of philosophical thought. Free will - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[AK4]

TO AK4 Yes

I will make this simple because i dont have the time right now. Choice is not free will. But even in your own words you contradict yourself

A very bad example, the dog is subject to instinctive impolses, but if you give him the choise of two different meats he will choose his preferred dish.

And by your definition you are saying this dog doesnt have free will? You are contradicting yourself again. Lets compare sentences shall we:

the dog is subject to instinctive impolses
God gave mankind the pulls of the flesh (instinctive imploses)

but if you give him the choise of two different meats
God gave mankind a choice of good or evil (Jesus said His MEAT was to do the will of the Father...two meats? hmmmm.)

he will choose his preferred dish.
and he prefers evil (or his preferred dish)

Sounds like the dog has that fabled free will to me. Oh i know now you will change from free will to free moral agency.

 

[sojourner]

Sojourner I cannot understand you because some time you come out with a pearl of wisdom, but then with so much crap, are you by-polar or something.

Maybe Jesus doesn't lead you to as much understanding as you thought...

 

[sojourner]

And what is that will?

For us to live in a love relationship with God.

The Incarnation is what has reconciled us to God -- not the crucifixion.

 

[sojourner]

do you think that Christianity has the understanding of the Gospels all wrong?

I think some of it does. I think much of it does not.

Do you think that they were written hundred plus years after the death of the apostle?

No. I think that Mark was written shortly after 70 c.e., Matthew, Luke and John between 80 or so and 95. (There is some plausible evidence for a much later date for Luke -- somewhere around 125 c.e.)
There is no real reason to think that any of the canonical gospels were written by any apostles.

there are no consensus on the age of the document that we have, but we know that they are copies of copies and that there are some that can be traced back to the time of the Apostles.

Actually there is great agreement on the dates. The earliest gospel document we have is a fragment from Codex Oxyrinchus, dated somewhere around 125-150 c.e.

What do you understand sin to be?

Selfishness.

A publicity stunt?????

A show of good faith. Jesus showed that he was willing to go to the mat for truth.

IMO what Peter did is to doubt that Jesus knew what was going to happen and he might even have doubt of the impending event at Calvary and that this was absolutely necessary for humanity’s sins reedemtion?

Your opinion is mistaken. What Peter doubted was the very humanity of Jesus.

 

[AK4]

AK4,

This makes no difference, it does not change the fact that created in his image does not mean that man is the imaged of God but that man can will of it own volition that man can will to act even contrary to God’s will. What does a spirit changes? Still we can see that it tha humans are very good but not supremely as their creator is.

Just making a point of if you arent precise in what you are saying of Gods Word then you are wrong period.

Yes!

Very Good. Theres hope for ya

You are blaming God?
God cannot create evil because evil is lack of goodness.

I dont blame God, but He is responsible and He says it Himself. Have you read

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and createevil: I the LORD do all these things.

Besides dont you know ALL IS OF GOD. He is the creator of all. Did He not create Satan/ the crooked serpent (look it up in Job and somewhere in Isaiah also). Did He not give humanity an experience of EVIL to humble him by it (Ecc 1:13). Now ask yourself when you are shown these scriptures--Is the plan of God wrong for giving mankind an experience of evil to humble them by it? Job understood Gods plan was found right in Gods eyes for NOT accusing Him of wrong doing. I dont accuse Him of wrong doing because i know His plan, so now how about you is God wrong for what He is doing right now? Be careful!!!

And you do? Tell me is God unjust? If He chastises anybody for sinning which is His doing He is unjust and the God that I know is supremely just.

Yes i do. No God is nothing but Just. But you are the one saying He is unjust by saying if He chastises anybody for sin they are accountable for. Mankind wants to believe they can “free will” themselves to do anything and that they can thwart Gods plan (like even coming to God without Him the being the one dragging them to Him). So that’s why I show you scripture about that “god” sitting in the temple of God thing. Its just an idol of the heart people cant let go.

So now you say God is unjust to use evil for the purpose of good right?

Well what else can it mean? "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat” the first thing that we can infer from this is there were no restriction on what the earlier generations of humans could choose as food, later on we find that God chose a particular people as His chosen people and gave them dietary law so really this stand as freedom of choice.

The principle of free will has religious, ethical, and scientific implications. For example, in the religious realm, free will may imply that an omnipotentdivinity does not assert its power over individual will and choices. In ethics, it may imply that individuals can be held morally accountable for their actions. In the scientific realm, it may imply that the actions of the body, including the brain and the mind, are not wholly determined by physical causality. The question of free will has been a central issue since the beginning of philosophical thought. Free will - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yet philosophers thousands of years back can see that there is no such thing as free will and people of today cling to it more than God.

free will



n.

1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2009 by Houghton Mifflin Company.


You see that in #2. "able to make free choices UNCONSTRAINED by divine will"

So again and i quote...

2Th 2:4 - Who opposeth and exalteth himself (yourself) above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he (you) as (a) god (with your supposed free will unconstrained by divine will) sitteth in the temple of God (thats you, your body, your heart and mind) , shewing himself (yourself) that he (you) is God.

EDIT---- I just thought id make this point of the ILLUSION OF FREE WILL.

Youve heard of Depth perception right? You do know it is an illusion also. Now just as in free will, does it mean we really have depth perception because we THINK we have it? Because it truly does feel like we have free will does it make it real?

Hey if its any consolation to you, i know we dont have free will and yet i am constantly fooled by this magic trick that the Magician showed me how the magic trick is done. I know its a trick, i can see the rabbit being put into the hat and then Him pulling it out of the hat and still think somehow magically the rabbit just appeared when He stuck His hand in to get the rabbit. Thats what you call a "strong delusion so that they will believe the lie". Yet can someone decieved know that they are decieved? Something to think about.

 

[free spirit]

to emiliano and ak4

ak4,

this makes no difference, it does not change the fact that created in his image does not mean that man is the imaged of god but that man can will of it own volition that man can will to act even contrary to god’s will. What does a spirit changes? Still we can see that it tha humans are very good but not supremely as their creator is.


yes!

you are blaming god?
god cannot create evil because evil is lack of goodness.

you are going off the trak here, no one created evil, because anything outside god's will is automatic evil, in other words stop doing evil and it will vanish.

and you do? Tell me is god unjust? If he chastises anybody for sinning which is his doing he is unjust and the god that i know is supremely just.


well what else can it mean? "of every tree of the garden you may freely eat” the first thing that we can infer from this is there were no restriction on what the earlier generations of humans could choose as food, later on we find that god chose a particular people as his chosen people and gave them dietary law so really this stand as freedom of choice.
the principle of free will has religious, ethical, and scientific implications. For example, in the religious realm, free will may imply that an omnipotentdivinity does not assert its power over individual will and choices. In ethics, it may imply that individuals can be held morally accountable for their actions. In the scientific realm, it may imply that the actions of the body, including the brain and the mind, are not wholly determined by physical causality. The question of free will has been a central issue since the beginning of philosophical thought. free will - wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[free spirit]

maybe jesus doesn't lead you to as much understanding as you thought...

a good one sojourner

 

[free spirit]

I will make this simple because i dont have the time right now. Choice is not free will. But even in your own words you contradict yourself



And by your definition you are saying this dog doesnt have free will? You are contradicting yourself again. Lets compare sentences shall we:

the dog is subject to instinctive impolses
God gave mankind the pulls of the flesh (instinctive imploses)

but if you give him the choise of two different meats
God gave mankind a choice of good or evil (Jesus said His MEAT was to do the will of the Father...two meats? hmmmm.)

he will choose his preferred dish.
and he prefers evil (or his preferred dish)

Sounds like the dog has that fabled free will to me. Oh i know now you will change from free will to free moral agency.

NO I WILL NOT CHANGE MY POSITION, BUT I AM BEGINNING TO THINK THAT YOU ARE A FRUIT CAKE, no offence intended.
You know a lot, step back take the full picture in. Do not get engrossed in worthless details.

 

[emiliano]

To AK4,

Yes i do. No God is nothing but Just. But you are the one saying He is unjust by saying if He chastises anybody for sin they are accountable for. Mankind wants to believe they can “free will” themselves to do anything and that they can thwart Gods plan (like even coming to God without Him the being the one dragging them to Him). So that’s why I show you scripture about that “god” sitting in the temple of God thing. Its just an idol of the heart people cant let go.

So now you say God is unjust to use evil for the purpose of good right?

Now I see why we disagree, “like even coming to God without Him the being the one dragging them to Him”? Is this another product of a translation from the Geek Language? Because of my Spanish I see it as the English sees it; draw them to me who does not mean dragging, all rational beings are attracted to (draw to) what is good and God is goodness itself, I don’t get any of “god” sitting in the temple of God thing, Idol of the heart? Now evil is something no good, something harmful, can God do something evil?

What is prophesied in Isa 45:7? God created Satan as an Angel, do you thing that God created Him evil so as to have target practices; this Angel was created to hold a higher hierarchical position that the other Angels and it appears that he was also endowed with free will, because he disobeyed God and was justly punished.

You see that in #2. "able to make free choices UNCONSTRAINED by divine will"

You have been pointed to the fact that the first couple chose to believe what they thought best. Now consider that that Satan staged his rebellion unconstrained, as God knew of his plan, I think that this ability that in man to choose the path that it seems best was ineptly title and gave raise to the sort of debate that we engage ourselves in.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/Onli...h+2:4&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1

2Th 2:4 - Who opposeth and exalteth himself (yourself) above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he (you) as (a) god (with your supposed free will unconstrained by divine will) sitteth in the templeofGod (thats you, your body, your heart and mind) , shewing himself (yourself) that he (you) is God.

Lol, this fellow think that I am Satan, how do you like that? I think that free spirit is right you are a fruit cake and is time to cut you loose.

 

[free spirit]

to ak4,


now i see why we disagree, “like even coming to god without him the being the one dragging them to him”? Is this another product of a translation from the geek language? Because of my spanish i see it as the english sees it; draw them to me who does not mean dragging, all rational beings are attracted to (draw to) what is good and god is goodness itself, I don’t get any of “god” sitting in the temple of god thing, idol of the heart? Now evil is something no good, something harmful, can god do something evil?

what is prophesied in isa 45:7? god created satan as an angel, do you thing that god created him evil so as to have target practices; this angel was created to hold a higher hierarchical position that the other angels and it appears that he was also endowed with free will, because he disobeyed god and was justly punished.

lol, this fellow think that i am satan, how do you like that? I think that free spirit is right you are a fruit cake and is time to cut you loose.

emiliano
i like that, we agree on that.

 

[free spirit]

TO EMILIANO AND AK4
[

ChristineES, HAS A QUESTION ABOUT THE INCONSISTENCY OF 1st. Timothy 5 - 8 to 15, in which we read, "But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith, and is worse than an unbeliever.
I have inserted Italics to make you better understand, so read the scriputers below with the Italic and without. And see wich fits better and if my take is spot on.
Let a widow be out on the list of intercessors only if she is not less than sixty years old, having been the wife of one man, having a reputation for good works; and if she has brought up children, if she has shown hospitality to strangers, if she has washed the saint feet, if she has assisted those in distress, and if she has devoted herself to every good works. But refuse to put younger widows on the list, of intercessor for when they feel sensual desires in disregard of christ, they want to get married, thus incurring condennation, because they have set aside their previous pledge. and at the same time they also lerne to be idle, as they go around from house to house; and not merely idle, but also gossips and busybodies, talking about things not proper to mention. therefore, i want younger widows to get married, bear children, keep house, and give the enemy no occasion for reproach; for some have already turned aside to follow Satan.
If we connect the above scriptures to verse eight, on the surface would appear that Paul is putting conditions in order to receive help, but that is not so. Paul in this case is a victim of those who wish to destroy his teaching, because the above writings are not intendet to address widow's charety but they are intended to extablish the criterion of eligibility to enter the group for the intercession ministry.
How did i come to this unilateral conclusion, you may ask? There are two things contained in 1st. Timothy 5 - 8 to 15, that are not in harmony with the gospel. firstly there is this two unexplainable verses.
"But refuse to put younger widows on the list, for when the feel sensual desires in disregard of Christ, they want to get married thus incurring condemnation, because they have set aside their previous pledge."
What previous pledge? for we all know that it is written that widows are released from the pledge to their deceased husband and can get married to whom they wish. And how is she in diregard of Christ??? It is obvious to me that Satan has made the criterion for establishing the interceding ministry invisible, also using this second implied connection for he has connected the graceful Christian acts of charity with the obvious uncharitable judgment of the would be recipient.
Therefore young women (or any one else for that matter) should not be allowed on the list and be part of the group of intercessors, because; if we have sensual desires in our lives our interest is divided.
It is confirmad in Luke 2 - 36 - 37, "And there was a prophetess, Anna the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years, having lived with a husband seven years after her marriage, and then as a widow to the age of eighty-four. And she never left the temple, serving interceding night and day with fasting and prayers."
The above verse contain among other things the fact that Anna had one husband, strange as it may seem 1st. Timothy 5 - 9, makes this a condition in order to be included on the list of intercessors.

 

[AK4]

NO I WILL NOT CHANGE MY POSITION, BUT I AM BEGINNING TO THINK THAT YOU ARE A FRUIT CAKE, no offence intended.
You know a lot, step back take the full picture in. Do not get engrossed in worthless details.

LOL. Now werent you the one who said something in your OP that said people will say stuff about you and your bad grammar because of your "knowledge" of the scriptures and yet you call me a fruit cake out of the blue?

No matter it doesnt bother me in the least and i wont respond back the same. But what you consider the "worthless details" of this so-called free will is in my opinion and many like minded individuals as me is the biggest, or as the scriptures put it, THE strong delusion God was going to send in the last days and until one can "step" down from "their throne" and let the true God sit on His throne then that true God will always only at best be "in the midsts" of that person and never have Him "IN" them.

Check the scriptures and notice how Jesus is JUST in the midsts of those who are just called compared to being IN those who are the called AND chosen. Those "worthless details" will keep you at being just one of the called. Many are called, few are chosen.

 

[AK4]

To AK4,

Now I see why we disagree, “like even coming to God without Him the being the one dragging them to Him”? Is this another product of a translation from the Geek Language? Because of my Spanish I see it as the English sees it; draw them to me who does not mean dragging, all rational beings are attracted to (draw to) what is good and God is goodness itself, I don’t get any of “god” sitting in the temple of God thing, Idol of the heart? Now evil is something no good, something harmful, can God do something evil?

There is a reason for every word or jot and tittle that God inspired the writers to record as scripture and believe me it does make a difference. think about it, it is the Word of God and who is the Word of God? Well i will let you think on that.

I dont expect you (or for that matter anyone) to get the whole "god"sitting in the temple of God thing. Most of the world, especially the world of christainity, is focused on some physical temple being rebuilt and some kinda single guy who is actually going to decieve many by saying he is god. Its ridiculous. They are looking for THE antichrist when It plainly states there are "many antichrists" out there already. The whole world is decieved to look for this one guy/antichrist and cant see that the beast/son of perdition is actually them. Anyway......

The sad apart about it and i quote Dr. Wegner “I think that exposing free will as an illusion, would have little effect on people’s lives or on their feelings of self-worth. Most of them would remain in denial.” .......“it’s an illusion, but it’s a very persistent illusion; it keeps coming back. Comparing it to a magician’s trick that has been seen again and again. Even though you know it’s a trick, you get fooled every time. The feeling just doesn’t go away.” He goes further to say and this nails it... “We (scientists, philosophers and such) worry that explaining evil condones it. We have to maintain our outrage at Hitler.” I dont think you get that. Think on it.

No God cant do something evil, but He does use evil (for the purpose of good).

What is prophesied in Isa 45:7? God created Satan as an Angel, do you thing that God created Him evil so as to have target practices; this Angel was created to hold a higher hierarchical position that the other Angels and it appears that he was also endowed with free will, because he disobeyed God and was justly punished.

Its all myth too, that lucifer story. the word they (Jerome and the early catholic church) use for lucifer means howl. That same word used 20 or so more times in OT scripture means howl, yet in just that one verse they use lucifer. Does that make sense to you?

Lol, this fellow think that I am Satan, how do you like that? I think that free spirit is right you are a fruit cake and is time to cut you loose.

No i dont think your satan. And well the fatih isnt for everyone. They thought what Jesus was doing also was the work of beelzebub.

 

[sojourner]

Yet philosophers thousands of years back can see that there is no such thing as free will and people of today cling to it more than God.

free will



n.

1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2009 by Houghton Mifflin Company.


You see that in #2. "able to make free choices UNCONSTRAINED by divine will"

So again and i quote...

2Th 2:4 - Who opposeth and exalteth himself (yourself) above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he (you) as (a) god (with your supposed free will unconstrained by divine will) sitteth in the temple of God (thats you, your body, your heart and mind) , shewing himself (yourself) that he (you) is God.

EDIT---- I just thought id make this point of the ILLUSION OF FREE WILL.

Youve heard of Depth perception right? You do know it is an illusion also. Now just as in free will, does it mean we really have depth perception because we THINK we have it? Because it truly does feel like we have free will does it make it real?

If we are not free to make choices independent of God, then there is no love relationship between humanity and Divinity. Hence, there is no reconciliation and no salvation. Indeed, there can be no God, unless a love relationship exists. Which is the point of the NT.

 

[emiliano]

AK4,
Well at least you are paying attention, but what I was trying to find was if you knew that to prophet was prophesying the raise of a powerful kingdom and a king that was going to conquer the Israelites, but I know of the other interpretation and one is that about Satan, others believe that it refers to Adam.

Isa 45:1
"Thus says the LORD to His anointed, To Cyrus, whose right hand I have held-- To subdue nations before him And loose the armor of kings, To open before him the double doors, So that the gates will not be shut: ​

Isaiah 14 is clear :

Isa 14:4
that you will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say: "How the oppressor has ceased, The golden [fn] city ceased! ​

Lucifer:
brilliant star, a title given to the king of Babylon (Isa 14:12) to denote his glory.
So I am afraid that I don’t believe that this refers to Satan.
Nebuchadnezzar Called by This Name

No i dont think your satan. And well the fatih isnt for everyone. They thought what Jesus was doing also was the work of beelzebub.

What a relief, are you God? Or maybe His right hand? It seems that your post will put you in that position that you allude to “I dont expect you (or for that matter anyone) to get the whole "god"sitting in the temple of God thing. Most of the world, especially the world of christainity, is focused on some physical temple being rebuilt and some kinda single guy who is actually going to decieve many by saying he is god” To you the whole world, Christianity, Jerome and just about everybody living are deceived and you have all knowledge. What does that makes you?

 

[AK4]

"But refuse to put younger widows on the list, for when the feel sensual desires in disregard of Christ, they want to get married thus incurring condemnation, because they have set aside their previous pledge."What previous pledge? for we all know that it is written that widows are released from the pledge to their deceased husband and can get married to whom they wish. And how is she in diregard of Christ???

First there is no contradiction to the gospel, just a misunderstanding. Maybe a better translation would help in understanding

11 As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry. 12 Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge.

See it is talking of them leaving their first (paramount or most important) love which for all should be Christ. Christ says anyone who puts his or her hand in the plough and looks back is not fit for the Kingdom. Christ also says it in Revelations about leaving your first love which should be Him. Young girls drive to have a family and kids is a major trap for one who had previously devoted themselves to Christ. "Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge"

It is obvious to me that Satan has made the criterion for establishing the interceding ministry invisible, also using this second implied connection for he has connected the graceful Christian acts of charity with the obvious uncharitable judgment of the would be recipient.

 

[AK4]

AK4,
Well at least you are paying attention, but what I was trying to find was if you knew that to prophet was prophesying the raise of a powerful kingdom and a king that was going to conquer the Israelites, but I know of the other interpretation and one is that about Satan, others believe that it refers to Adam.

Isa 45:1
"Thus says the LORD to His anointed, To Cyrus, whose right hand I have held-- To subdue nations before him And loose the armor of kings, To open before him the double doors, So that the gates will not be shut: ​

Isaiah 14 is clear :

Isa 14:4
that you will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say: "How the oppressor has ceased, The golden [fn] city ceased! ​

Lucifer:
brilliant star, a title given to the king of Babylon (Isa 14:12) to denote his glory.
So I am afraid that I don’t believe that this refers to Satan.
Nebuchadnezzar Called by This Name

Hey i must not be too much of a fruitcake because i agree with ya here.

What a relief, are you God? Or maybe His right hand? It seems that your post will put you in that position that you allude to “I dont expect you (or for that matter anyone) to get the whole "god"sitting in the temple of God thing. Most of the world, especially the world of christainity, is focused on some physical temple being rebuilt and some kinda single guy who is actually going to decieve many by saying he is god” To you the whole world, Christianity, Jerome and just about everybody living are deceived and you have all knowledge. What does that makes you?

A worm.

ps i only have what God has given me and which is much, but oh so little.

 

[AK4]

If we are not free to make choices independent of God, then there is no love relationship between humanity and Divinity. Hence, there is no reconciliation and no salvation. Indeed, there can be no God, unless a love relationship exists. Which is the point of the NT.

Dont get me wrong, we make millions of choices a day, whether conscience of them or not. Are those choices free from any influence, whether conscience of them or not? No.

I forget who said it but He said "that a human can very well DO what he wants, but cannot WILL what he wants.” Can you see the difference there?

Choice and free will are not the same thing.

 

[sojourner]

Dont get me wrong, we make millions of choices a day, whether conscience of them or not. Are those choices free from any influence, whether conscience of them or not? No.

I forget who said it but He said "that a human can very well DO what he wants, but cannot WILL what he wants.” Can you see the difference there?

Choice and free will are not the same thing.

Once again, God cannot will us to love God, or what we do is not love at all, but coersion.
In order for God to be God, free will must exist, for that's the only way love can happen.