Do you understand the New Testament

[Smoke]

I'm sorry but I'm confused isn't the Father God and isn't Jesus God. So doesn't that mean Jesus is God the Father? If they all are considered God then they all are the same meaning they all are God and there is no difference between the two. Created through who Jesus or the father? Col 1:16 says something different it says that it was all created by Jesus.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Who is the image of the invisible God? Jesus right.
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
By who? According to the bible it is Jesus who created everything not "God the Father."
But from the above quote in genesis it says in the beginning God created everything. God who "the Father" or Jesus?

Christianity, or at least normative Christianity, teaches one god in three hypostases or persons. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all God, both individually and corporately, and yet not three gods but one god. I won't claim it makes sense; I'm not even sure it's intended to make sense.

 

[Muhammad Rasulullah]

No, that would mean that Jesus is God the Son, since I believe Jesus is God.

If Jesus is God and "God the Father" is God how is Jesus not God the Father?

 

[free spirit]

No you are wrong freespirit, they are not one and the same. The way they are one and the same is that they are one in spirit. I pray God that He will give you eyes to see what i am going show you, but then again its not me who reveals----

neither knows any man the FATHER, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him" (Matt. 11:27).

Let me help you out a little since you say you know the NT. Grasp this major truth of scripture:

No man has ever seen God at any time" (John 1:18).

"The FATHER Himself, which has sent Me, has born witness of Me. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape"(John 5:37).

"No man has seen God at any time" (I John 4:12).

and one more to further wet your appetite if you really want to know Jesus and His God (notice Jesus has a God)

Re 3:2 - Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God.

Re 3:12 -Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.

You will also need to know what it the word god means and that that is not the name of the Father.

EDIT---to make sure you dont think im saying some kind of trinity, no i am not. The doctrine of the trinity is a doctrine of devils

YOU WILL HAVE TO START FROM THE BEGINNING, CLEAN YOUR HEAD FROM ALL THAT CONFUSION COMING FROM RELIGION.
You were made in the image of God so study yourself and you will know the answer.

 

[free spirit]

TO SOJOURNER

Actually, scholarship will show that the texts are fairly well-reserved. Plus, they were originally very fluid -- changes were made quite frequently early on. And since that's the case, we really don't know "what Jesus had in mind," except through the lens of the Church that produced and "perfected" the texts about Jesus, and that told stories about him.

You are correct, but you have missed one vital piace; and that is, that Christ is alive and he can guide you through the scriptures.

Since the Church is the Body of Christ, in what way can the scriptures be said to have "been corrupted by the words of man," since the scriptures were written, compiled and edited by that Church?

Yes, but was the church in fact his body or they were deludeing themselves.
2 Peter 2 - 1 - 2, "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. And many will follow their sensuality, AND BECAUSE OF THEM THE WAY OF THE TRUTH WILL BE MALIGNED."

I submit that "knowing," when it is placed as a prerequisite for salvation, is heretical from the understanding of grace.

Again you are correct, for we begin our life in Christ by faith through his grace.
But after having being saved comes the knowlege, for only after you attend school you start to learn.
Colossians 2 - 2 to 4, "having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge os God's mystery, that is Christ. in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. i say this in order that no one may delude you with persuasive arguments."

IT WORKED!!!! I HAVE LEARNED TO QUOTE CORRECTLY GLORY TO GOD

 

[free spirit]

I'm sorry but I'm confused isn't the Father God and isn't Jesus God. So doesn't that mean Jesus is God the Father? If they all are considered God then they all are the same meaning they all are God and there is no difference between the two.

Yes that is correct, we were created in his emage, so we can see that in ouselves, like (Muhammad is the word, and the word is Mahammad) you cannot separete the two, he is the father and he is also the son.
Our life is in our words, for if we did not have the faculty of the word we could be alive bu we certainly wounld not be living.

Created through who Jesus or the father? Col 1:16 says something different it says that it was all created by Jesus.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Who is the image of the invisible God? Jesus right.
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
By who? According to the bible it is Jesus who created everything not "God the Father."
But from the above quote in genesis it says in the beginning God created everything. God who "the Father" or Jesus?

Muammad, look inside you; your thought are formed of words inside your head, right! but these thought are not yet born, as you speak, it becames your firstborn. God created every thing with his word, and so do we, because for you to create anything you have to think it through with words. So all things were created by the word and for the word. OR we can say All things were created by God and for God.
Is that any clear to you now?

 

[AK4]

If Jesus is God and "God the Father" is God how is Jesus not God the Father?

The easiest way to explain it is that the word God is like a title or a last name. God is not the Fathers name. The pagans of old gods were a god also.

Basically is like the last name Smith. Lets say the Fathers last name was Smith and Jesus is His son. So now you have Father Smith and Jesus Smith same as Father God and Jesus God.

Thats not scriptural but here how you back up that claim. Jesus acknowledge that in the OT scriptures humanity were called gods right? And He even challenged the pharisees on this same thing in the gospels. So to keep this short you see, god is just a title pretty much.

The invisible spirit Father gave the title of God and Lord to Jesus (yet this was before the creation of the heavens and the earth, too much to explain right now on that subject) and we will all have the title "god" (like our lastname) once we are born into the kingdom of God.

Oh the way they (the Father and Son) are one is that they are one in spirit. I could post scriptures to back up my claims later if you'd like.

 

[sojourner]

I'm sorry but I'm confused isn't the Father God and isn't Jesus God. So doesn't that mean Jesus is God the Father? If they all are considered God then they all are the same meaning they all are God and there is no difference between the two. Created through who Jesus or the father? Col 1:16 says something different it says that it was all created by Jesus.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Who is the image of the invisible God? Jesus right.
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
By who? According to the bible it is Jesus who created everything not "God the Father."
Col. 1:16 "...for in him all things ... have been created..."

You're confused.
But from the above quote in genesis it says in the beginning God created everything. God who "the Father" or Jesus?

No, the Father is God. Jesus, also, is God. But The Father and the Son are not the same Person. There is a difference between the two, for they are two different Persons, who are both part of the same God.

 

[sojourner]

You are correct, but you have missed one vital piace; and that is, that Christ is alive and he can guide you through the scriptures.

Jesus does not take the place of solid scholarship.

Yes, but was the church in fact his body or they were deludeing themselves.
2 Peter 2 - 1 - 2, "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. And many will follow their sensuality, AND BECAUSE OF THEM THE WAY OF THE TRUTH WILL BE MALIGNED."

Of course the Church is Christ's Body. II Peter is not prophecy. it's theology. Therefore, we can't treat it as such. The heresies were weeded out of the Church long, long ago.

Colossians 2 - 2 to 4, "having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge os God's mystery, that is Christ. in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. i say this in order that no one may delude you with persuasive arguments."

You're proof-texting. This isn't a push for knowledge, it's a push for faith. Had you read on, you would have discovered the author saying, "I rejoice to see your morale and the firmness of your faith in Christ."
What is being said is that knowing unity in love is knowing Christ.

 

[AK4]

YOU WILL HAVE TO START FROM THE BEGINNING, CLEAN YOUR HEAD FROM ALL THAT CONFUSION COMING FROM RELIGION.
You were made in the image of God so study yourself and you will know the answer.

Sorry i dont follow any religion. Look up my post and see what all i have said about religion and christainity and judaism and whatever. All religions on earth are man-made. I follow Christ---there is only one faith and that is His.


See this is where you are lacking knowledge, in all respect. First of all we are not made in the image of God yet. We are BEING MADE into the image of God. If we were made into the image already then you are saying that image of God has sin it. God has not made man in the image of God yet, God is creating humanity into His image. Look it up in the hebrew and an interlineary. Some translations like the concordant have translated that Genesis verse correctly.

So with that said lets start from there. If you cant see that then you are speaking blasphemy saying that man has already been created in the image of God

Also it seems as if you are trying convey that Jesus was first brought into being at the conception of Mary. I hope this isnt what you are saying because that would be wrong too.

And one last note...tell me what verse or verses show THE beginning because i definitely can show you verses that shows the beginning ....(by the way Gen 1:1 is NOT the beginning of creation)

 

[AK4]

If Jesus is God and "God the Father" is God how is Jesus not God the Father?

Also notice or add this to my last post to you....Even satan is called a god.

2Co 4:4 - In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
So the world god is just like a title or surname

 

[free spirit]

Also notice or add this to my last post to you....Even satan is called a god.

2Co 4:4 - In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
So the world god is just like a title or surname

You are engrossed in the scriptures but you are not using your God given faculty to reason, like the Jews, they kept of quoting the scriptures and failed to see who Jesus was. you are certainly in error, you sound like a well conversed JW. they also are all scripture but no sense.

 

[free spirit]

No, the Father is God. Jesus, also, is God. But The Father and the Son are not the same Person. There is a difference between the two, for they are two different Persons, who are both part of the same God.

Two different persons, wo are both part of the same Go, so are you saying that there is a third God, wich is a God overhall Gods.

 

[free spirit]

Jesus does not take the place of solid scholarship.

Conviction comes within there is no more solid scholarship than that.

Of course the Church is Christ's Body. II Peter is not prophecy. it's theology. Therefore, we can't treat it as such. The heresies were weeded out of the Church long, long ago.

Look around if you cannot see the Heresies you are blind.

You're proof-texting. This isn't a push for knowledge, it's a push for faith. Had you read on, you would have discovered the author saying, "I rejoice to see your morale and the firmness of your faith in Christ."
What is being said is that knowing unity in love is knowing Christ.

There is knowledge and there is knowledge, like experiential knowledge (as in carnal knowledge) and there is spiritual knowledge. In Christ we have both, we have the witness in ouselves (that is carnal) and we have the conviction of knowledge which is spiritual. The character of love is a by-product of these two Knowledges.

 

[AK4]

You are engrossed in the scriptures but you are not using your God given faculty to reason, like the Jews, they kept of quoting the scriptures and failed to see who Jesus was. you are certainly in error, you sound like a well conversed JW. they also are all scripture but no sense.

A JW? Ouch. Their god they believe in is just as much of a monster as most of christainity's except instead of torture he would annihilate most of humanity. And no the JW's dont know the difference between the Father and Son. Believe me my faith vastly differs from theirs.

You say i fail to see who Jesus is.... I believe i told you but if i didnt i'll tell you again. He is THE beginning of creation (yes that means Jesus, our God and Saviour, was created , shocking isnt it to know that our Lord and God was created huh? well thats what the scriptures teach. Heres an example "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him"(John 1:18, NASB)(What? the invisible God that no one can ever see or hear created God (Jesus) to be His Spokesman, Logos, His expressed image so we can see what represents Him and be able to hear Him?) He is the God of the "OT", the creator, etc etc etc.


Now with your beliefs you cannot over come this major truth and not contradict----"No man has seen the Father AT ANYTIME, and niether heard His voice". Now you are thinking of Jesus was the thought of the Father until His human birth right? And then Jesus was first brought into existence at the conception with Mary. This contradicts so many scriptures if this is your belief and the very words of Jesus Himself. Weigh and measure your beliefs to that major truth i just showed you and see if it measures up. And see if my God given faculty to reason and see and believe the scriptures is sound or not.

 

[free spirit]

You say i fail to see who Jesus is.... I believe i told you but if i didnt i'll tell you again. He is THE beginning of creation (yes that means Jesus, our God and Saviour, was created , shocking isnt it to know that our Lord and God was created huh? well thats what the scriptures teach. Heres an example "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him"(John 1:18, NASB)He is the God of the "OT". etc etc etc.

you are correct and you are not, let me explain: we can talk about Jesus the man and yes he was begotten of God for he was the son of God, but before he was begotten he was the word. John 1 - 1, In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word was God.
what i am pointing to you, the word was the beginning, because without the word there was nothing if you like. so this is the reason why he is God and not A God the JW believe that Jesus is A God, that is why i thought that you were one of them.
Now Jesus was begotten by the Word or God if you like, so Jesus was devine and human.
I devide is divinity and his humanity this way, his conscience was devine his soul was human, for he soffered temptation as any of us.

Now with your beliefs you cannot over come this major truth and not contradict----"No man has seen the Father AT ANYTIME, and niether heard His voice". Now you are thinking of Jesus was the thought of the Father until His human birth right?

Yes he was the thought of the father.
The word was the first borne of all creation with this phrase " let there be light"
You see, the thought of God were revealed with his words.
before God spoke there was only God with his thought, and as you know thought are words, that is to say if God did not have the thought he could not exist.
therefore it is inportant to know who the word realy is.
He was created or revealed when God Spoke.
"And he is the light of men," our light is our understanding and reason, which are both made up of words. If we did not have these faculties we will not be aware of anything.

And then Jesus was first brought into existence at the conception with Mary.

Not into existence but made in the flesh with the conception of Mary

This contradicts so many scriptures if this is your belief and the very words of Jesus Himself. Weigh and measure your beliefs to that major truth i just showed you and see if it measures up. And see if my God given faculty to reason and see and believe the scriptures is sound or not.

Please visit my thread "RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD" And get back to me with your comments please.

 

[sojourner]

Two different persons, wo are both part of the same Go, so are you saying that there is a third God, wich is a God overhall Gods.

No.:no:

 

[sojourner]

Conviction comes within there is no more solid scholarship than that.

And that comes after thoroughly examining evidence. That thorough examination is called, "more solid scholarship."

Look around if you cannot see the Heresies you are blind.

Of course there are. But they aren't included in the orthodox Church, either. They are spurious groups.

There is knowledge and there is knowledge, like experiential knowledge (as in carnal knowledge) and there is spiritual knowledge. In Christ we have both, we have the witness in ouselves (that is carnal) and we have the conviction of knowledge which is spiritual. The character of love is a by-product of these two Knowledges.

You're forgetting the very important knowledge that comes from using our minds, in addition to our bodies and emotions. It's that knowledge that informs us best as to what the Biblical authors meant when they wrote what they did.

 

[AK4]

freespirit
you are correct and you are not, let me explain: we can talk about Jesus the man and yes he was begotten of God for he was the son of God, but before he was begotten he was the word. John 1 - 1, In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word was God.
what i am pointing to you, the word was the beginning, because without the word there was nothing if you like.

If there was nothing before the Word, then what was it that brought about the "thought"? Ahhh and there you would have the Father. The invisible, never to be seen or heard or approached Father. For we all will eventually see Jesus as He is (1 John 3:2).

So with that in mind your theory of the Father and the Son being the same do not fit this scripture either


1Ti 6:16 -who alone is immortal (this is talking about the Father not Jesus because Jesus DIED(Rev 1:18) and the Father cannot die) and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see.

that verse in 1 Timothy is talking about the Father---And on that note also wouldnt Paul be wrong in all his letters he starts with "God the Father AND (notice its "and" and not "the" that follows) our Lord Jesus Christ. And in the end Christ then hands over the kingdom to His Father. Does He then hand it over to Himself? See how that makes no sense.

so this is the reason why he is God and not A God the JW believe that Jesus is A God, that is why i thought that you were one of them.
Now Jesus was begotten by the Word or God if you like, so Jesus was devine and human.

No Jesus was not begotten by the Word. All throughout the gospels Jesus flatly tells He came out from God. The Word is Jesus. The Word is not the Father


Joh 1:14 - The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. (man this verse flat out destroys your theory)

Joh 16:28 - I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father." Col 1:15 - He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. (Is He the image of His invisible self?) Come on now think.

And just to throw in another and remeber Jesus said this of His Father and not of Himself


Joh 4:23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

I devide is divinity and his humanity this way, his conscience was devine his soul was human, for he soffered temptation as any of us.

Well you can do what you feel but until you give me a scripture on that then your rationale matters not

Yes he was the thought of the father.
The word was the first borne of all creation with this phrase " let there be light"
You see, the thought of God were revealed with his words.
before God spoke there was only God with his thought, and as you know thought are words, that is to say if God did not have the thought he could not exist.
therefore it is inportant to know who the word realy is.

Lets use your rationale hear again. So your thought are words right? So when the Father (this would be Jesus to you) had the thought before He spoke the words then nothing including Himself existed. Now does that make sense to you? If i have a thought to create something it doesnt come into existence UNTIL i actually begin creating it. It doesnt exist until then, so even your own example proves you wrong because in order for that to work Jesus/the Word would still have to have a seperate "being" to bring Him out. Therefore they are not the same "being".

He was created or revealed when God Spoke.
"And he is the light of men," our light is our understanding and reason, which are both made up of words. If we did not have these faculties we will not be aware of anything.

So people who cant speak arent aware of anything just because their thoughts cant be brought out in speech? (im not talking sign language here either):slap:

Please visit my thread "RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD" And get back to me with your comments please.

As i have shortly demonstrated here i know how to rightly divide the word, but you need to understand the importance of comparing spiritual with spiritual and not contradicting any other scripture. I could fill this whole post with scriptures that wouldnt contradict any other.

By the way, your belief is basically saying that Jesus is eternal right? And also you have avoided tthe "no one has seen or heard God" verses to show how your theology can fit these.

 

[free spirit]

And that comes after thoroughly examining evidence. That thorough examination is called, "more solid scholarship."

I have the evidence within my heart, but unfortunately I have not the ability to show you, I can only steak to you, it all depends of how you receive what I say that makes the difference.

You're forgetting the very important knowledge that comes from using our minds, in addition to our bodies and emotions. It's that knowledge that informs us best as to what the Biblical authors meant when they wrote what they did.

True knowledge is acquired by reason, and it is only then that the knowledge is burned into our mind or conscience. our emotions cannot be trusted.

 

[free spirit]

If there was nothing before the Word, then what was it that brought about the "thought"? Ahhh and there you would have the Father. The invisible, never to be seen or heard or approached Father. For we all will eventually see Jesus as He is (1 John 3:2).

OK. We were made in his image, so God is closer to us than we would ever immagine. Therefore let us look at ouselves.
How are the words in us created? Or can you separate yourself from your words?
I believe if you could look at the source of your word you would be looking at the face of god with a small (g) because you will be looking at your own face.
Matthew 3 - 17 " And behold, a voice out of the heavens, saying, "this is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased," and in Matthew 17 - 5, " While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and behold, a voice out of the cloud, saying, "this is my beloved son with whom i am well-pleased; listen to him!"
Exodus 3 - 14, "And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and he said, thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, "I AM has sent me to you."
These voices were from God, or were they not?
We cannot see him or his form because he is bigger then the universe. The best that we can do is see Jesus.
In John 14 - 9, we read, "Jesus said to him, "have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know, me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the father; how do you say, show us the father?
John 8 - 19, "and so they were saying to him, where is your father/ jesus answered, "you know neither me nor my father; if you knew me, you would know my father also."
John 8 - 24, " I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I AM he, you shall die in your sins."

AK4, digest the above and let us move forward on this slowly