Do you want the Ukrainian War to end today?

[Estro Felino]

Because you should already know the answer to this question as we've talked about it before.

And btw, "mutual respect" also involves being disgusted with racist and anti-Semitic tropes.

I don't recall.
I can't remember hundreds of posts from different posters.

I will repeat the question: do you love my country? or do you hate it?

 

[Estro Felino]

I also happen to think that the available evidence is pointing more to Ukraine, likely with the help of the USA.

But I don't know since I haven't seen any conclusive evidence.
It's also impossible to say how much of Ukraine / US leadership was involved.

All I'm saying is that both sides had motive and means.

"Some people overseas" doesn't mean it was the United States as institution.
It doesn't mean it was the American people.
I guess it was obvious.

 

[metis]

I don't recall.
I can't remember hundreds of posts from different posters.

I will repeat the question: do you love my country? or do you hate it?

I don't hate anyone or any country. What I do hate is racism, anti-Semitism, fascism, and dishonesty.

 

[Estro Felino]

No, I'm not mixing things up.

View attachment 82408

In the months leading upto the sabotage, Russia was already gradually shutting it down, using it as an economic weapon. It was completely shut down indefinitely, by Russia, before the sabotage. The world was up in arms over their behavior here for the sole purpose of skyrocketting prices causing economic stress in the west, as you can see on the graph showing the gas price evolution.

Are you affirming that some people overseas have never tried to stop the construction of the Nordstream years before Putin's invasion?

 

[Heyo]

No, I'm not mixing things up.

View attachment 82408

In the months leading upto the sabotage, Russia was already gradually shutting it down, using it as an economic weapon. It was completely shut down indefinitely, by Russia, before the sabotage. The world was up in arms over their behavior here for the sole purpose of skyrocketting prices causing economic stress in the west, as you can see on the graph showing the gas price evolution.

That was after the war started. I thought you were talking about before that. If you ask me, Russia did what we should have done even earlier.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Or he is dead.

Putin can't agree to stop the war without losing face - and his position. Only some else than Putin can end the war. But there are believable rumours that Putin is terminally ill.

Indeed.

If I'm being honest, every time I open my news app in the morning, some part of me hopes that I get to read that he was found dead in diapers in a puddle of his own vommit or something.

At the same time though.... there are people that could potentially enter that power vacuum at that point which are actually 10 times worse then he is.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Are you affirming that some people overseas have never tried to stop the construction of the Nordstream years before Putin's invasion?

Why go overseas?
Plenty of people here in Europe, even in germany itself, were heavily against BOTH nord stream projects as they considered it a very bad idea to increase dependence for energy supplies with a bunch of thugs in the Kremlin that couldn't be trusted, predicting that they would use it as a weapon whenever they considered it usefull.

History has shown they were more then correct in that.
I too didn't like the idea when the were build. Not the first one and definitely not the second one.
I for one am very glad that those who were for it have woken up now, realizing that Russia can not be trusted with anything and the less we depend on them for whatever, the better is for us in the long run.

Do business with people you can trust. Not with thugs and bullies.

 

[Estro Felino]

I don't hate anyone or any country. What I do hate is racism, anti-Semitism, fascism, and dishonesty.

Very well.
Obama destabilized the Mediterranean area.
And that caused incredibly harm to my country.
Because destroying Libya and Syria has really jeopardized the EU's tranquility.
You can't even imagine how much money the European countries are spending on countering illegal immigration that was caused by the destruction of those countries.
Since Libya's president Gaddafi used to help African countries and control immigration.

So...I reiterate it.
If you really love my country, you should understand why I think Obama has done very bad things.

 

[Estro Felino]

Why go overseas?
Plenty of people here in Europe, even in germany itself, were heavily against BOTH nord stream projects as they considered it a very bad idea to increase dependence for energy supplies with a bunch of thugs in the Kremlin that couldn't be trusted, predicting that they would use it as a weapon whenever they considered it usefull.

History has shown they were more then correct in that.
I too didn't like the idea when the were build. Not the first one and definitely not the second one.
I for one am very glad that those who were for it have woken up now, realizing that Russia can not be trusted with anything and the less we depend on them for whatever, the better is for us in the long run.

Do business with people you can trust. Not with thugs and bullies.

Are you kidding?
Russian natural gas is the best in the world...and all European countries do need it. All of us do.
So the two pipelines are vital for our economy.

Also because the natural gas from Baku is not sufficient to supply all of Europe.

If you understand German...I have brought you the evidence.

It was 2020.

ZEIT ONLINE | Lesen Sie zeit.de mit Werbung oder im PUR-Abo. Sie haben die Wahl.

www.zeit.de

So yes...they did try to boycott, stop the pipeline before Putin's invasion.

US senators warn of sanctions over Nord Stream 2 – DW – 08/14/2020

Three US senators are threatening the ferry port on the island of Rügen with "crushing" sanctions to prevent the controversial Nord Stream 2 pipeline. Fearing financial ruin, the people of Sassnitz are defiant.

www.dw.com

 

[metis]

The EU has never been "tranquil" and probably never will.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

That was after the war started. I thought you were talking about before that. If you ask me, Russia did what we should have done even earlier.

Ha, ok. No I was indeed talking about during the war.

It's during the war, well before the sabotage, that Europe decided -and announced- that they were going to move away from Russian energy supply.
So, if the followed through on that statement, it was only a matter of time before Europe itself would have stopped buying gas through that pipeline.

But finding new suppliers off course takes time. In the meantime, buying gas from Russia just went on. And that's when Russia started using it as a weapon by curtailing it and eventually shutting it down completely under some ridiculous pretext of "maintenance". Then they lied about how there was a problem that they couldn't fix because "sanctions". So two birds in one go:
1. economic hurt in europe due to soaring prices
2. half blackmail of lifting sanctions so they supposedly could fix their imagined problem with the equipment

There was nothing wrong off course.
It was all just "they're going to stop buying anyway, let's be a step ahead and hurt them economically while we still can"

This is where I see the motive for blowing it up as an end-game "final" blow. First it was merely shut down and could still be reoponed. The market still had that hope. Blowing it up would take that hope away and deliver a double economic hit.

But again, I consider Ukraine a more likely candidate for the act, simply due to the evidence so far (which is nevertheless flimsy imo).

But it certainly is not the case imo that Russia had no motive at all to do it.

 

[Heyo]

Why go overseas?
Plenty of people here in Europe, even in germany itself, were heavily against BOTH nord stream projects as they considered it a very bad idea to increase dependence for energy supplies with a bunch of thugs in the Kremlin that couldn't be trusted, predicting that they would use it as a weapon whenever they considered it usefull.

The pipelines weren't popular but for other reasons. Environmentalists weren't happy about the digging at the ports and the use of natural gas generally. Doing business with Russia was seen as a good idea, thinking that the mutual dependence would keep Putin from doing something stupid because it would ruin the Russian economy.

 

[Estro Felino]

The EU has never been "tranquil" and probably never will.

It has been...if nobody bothers.

The pipelines weren't popular but for other reasons. Environmentalists weren't happy about the digging at the ports and the use of natural gas generally. Doing business with Russia was seen as a good idea, thinking that the mutual dependence would keep Putin from doing something stupid because it would ruin the Russian economy.

European Green Deal implies more and more supply of natural gas.
Electric cars need power. Power needs fuel.

 

[F1fan]

The pipelines weren't popular but for other reasons. Environmentalists weren't happy about the digging at the ports and the use of natural gas generally. Doing business with Russia was seen as a good idea, thinking that the mutual dependence would keep Putin from doing something stupid because it would ruin the Russian economy.

And there was reason to think putin was moving towards cooperation and stability with the Olympics and expanding Formula 1 annually. putin's war motivation has ruined all that investment and openness to Western money and tourism. Americans are warned from going to Russia.

 

[F1fan]

It has been...if nobody bothers.

European Green Deal implies more and more supply of natural gas.
Electric cars need power. Power needs fuel.

Like the sun, flowing water, wind.

Gas is most needed for heating of houses and buildings, and there's not enough infrastructure for alternatives. putin used their gas supply as a weapon, and he's lost good will and money as a result. Not too smart. He expected a short war, just as Hitler did in 1941 with the invasion of Russia, and over-estimated everything.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Are you kidding?
Russian natural gas is the best in the world...and all European countries do need it. All of us do.
So the two pipelines are vital for our economy.

You completely missed the point.
This is not about the quality or quantity or price of the gas.
This is about the trustworthyness (lack of, rather) of the thugs at the other side of the pipeline.

 

[Estro Felino]

You completely missed the point.
This is not about the quality or quantity or price of the gas.
This is about the trustworthyness (lack of, rather) of the thugs at the other side of the pipeline.

The US buying oil from countries where women are treated like garbage...
that is good and holy...au contraire?

Look...monsieur....double standards, doublestandardism is something I don't tolerate. I really detest it.

Please...I had already told you that.
It makes me feel ill.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The pipelines weren't popular but for other reasons. Environmentalists weren't happy about the digging at the ports and the use of natural gas generally. Doing business with Russia was seen as a good idea, thinking that the mutual dependence would keep Putin from doing something stupid because it would ruin the Russian economy.

Here's a EU Commission paper from 2008 which explicitely discusses concerns of how this pipeline would give an unpredictable Russia significant leverage over EU energy supplies.

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/meetdocs/2004_2009/documents/dv/afet_01042008_security/afet_01042008_securityen.pdf

There's a lot in there, but for example there are many points like the following:

Russia’s inclination to put pressure on its neighbours in times of crisis cannot be ruled out as Russia has previously resorted to this practice – even against EU and NATO members. Factors of inertia against abuse exist, but Nord Stream facilitates Russia’s ability to use energy supplies as a foreign policy lever. Even the slightest risk of having supplies cut for political or other reasons by definition moves the project into the security realm also for the EU

So these concerns were very much present. A significant amount of people were against these nord stream projects for exactly this reason.
The predictions in papers such as these have proven to be spot on.

 

[Revoltingest]

The US buying oil from countries where women are treated like garbage...
that is good and holy...au contraire?

The master of deflection...or of missing the point?
Buying Russian gas gives Russians the power to
use supply as a weapon.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

European Green Deal implies more and more supply of natural gas.
Electric cars need power. Power needs fuel.

Modern modular nuclear power plants supply power as well. They are much easier to build then the old nuclear stations and they have zero carbon emissions. They also produce much less waste then previous generations and are much much safer.

In the current climate situation, "more gas" is utterly crazy and irresponsible.

For some reason people are still up in arms when it comes to nuclear power. They still think it's the same unsafe wasteful stuff as the type of reactors that caused Tsjernobyl.