Does Atheism Lead to Immoral Behavior?

[InvestigateTruth]

Perhaps just being human leads to immoral behavior.

Not all human beings are immoral.
But there is severe immortality among fanatical religious people.
Most people have some immoral behaviors though. But to different degrees. Even, small lying. Back biting. Etc.

 

[Brian2]

It was the Holy Spirit that was promised to bring all things to their remembrance, whatsoever Jesus had said to them.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Yes it was the Holy Spirit that was promised to bring all things to their remembrance, whatsoever Jesus had said to them.
We should not ignore the part of the sentence which tells us that the Holy Spirit IS the Comforter however.

Baha'u'llah did not literally live inside of anyone and neither does the Holy Spirit.

Question.—What is the Holy Spirit?
Answer.—The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality. Moreover, entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits—that is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 108-109

John 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Comforter, to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

Jesus told us that the Comforter which is the Spirit of Truth and which is the Holy Spirit, would live inside of the disciples that Jesus was speaking to.
But this is the whole point isn't it. Jesus tells us certain things and Baha'i denies them.

I never denied that the Holy Spirit was sent on the day of Pentecost.

Acts 2 King James Version (KJV)
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

And then the Holy Spirit was sent again in the last days that we are now living in. In that same chapter in which we find the Pentecost account, we have (Acts 2:17-21) showing that God would once again pour out His Spirit upon all flesh:

Hebrews 1:1 On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets. 2 But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.
The last days began with Jesus and continue until the last day, when Jesus returns.
There was no reason for Peter to speak about what Joel said will happen hundreds of years later. Peter was trying to explain what was happening at Pentecost when the people thought that the disciples were drunk and Peter was saying, "No they aren't drunk, this is what Joel promised would happen."
You have read those verses in Acts 2 just before the prophecy of Joel, those verses that you like to leave out when quoting Acts 2.
Acts 2:15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

Everything in the book entitled Thief in the Night did happen, thus fulfilling all the prophecies for the return of Christ.

Yes there have been earth quakes and darkening of the sky and meteor showers in the past. So what.

The authors of the NT wrote stories about how Jesus came back to life and appeared to the disciples.
The earliest manuscripts of the gospel of Mark have the ending at Mark 16:8. Verses 9-20 were added afterwards.
This is a fact, not a belief.

Sooo? The writer of the Gospel of Mark was a dramatic writer and wrote in that style. He left no doubt that Jesus had risen from the dead however.
Mark 16:6 “Don’t be alarmed,” he said. “You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him. 7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.’”
8 Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.

Luke is not the 'voice of Jesus.' If I had heard the voice of Jesus I would believe it just as I believe the voice of Baha'u'llah.

The traditional view is that the Gospel of Luke and Acts were written by the physician Luke, a companion of Paul. Many scholars believe him to be a Gentile Christian, though some scholars think Luke was a Hellenic Jew. This Luke is mentioned in Paul's Epistle to Philemon (v.
Authorship of Luke–Acts - Wikipedia

Believing the voice of Baha'u'llah means that you have to deny the voice of Jesus in the Bible and speaking to you.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_Luke–Acts

It is possible but that does not mean it ever happened.
I have no problem with Christians believing that Jesus rose from the dead and I know some Baha'is believe that might have happened.
If that had happened it would have been a miracle, just like the Virgin Birth.

Let's not even consider a miracle then.

The real danger in believing that Jesus rose from the dead is Christians believing that they will also rise from the dead.

This quote is from the chapter that you like to quote from about the sort of body people have when they are resurrected.
1Cor 15:12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

The early church believed and preached the resurrection of Jesus because that is what the early disciples saw, the risen Jesus.

 

[Brian2]

It is a belief, not a fact. If it was a fact it could have been proven.

It is what the witnesses say happened.

I believe that if Jesus rose He rose in a heavenly body, which is a spiritual body, a form of some kind, NOT a spirit.
We will all be raised to live in a spiritual body after we die and go to heaven.
That is in the Bible and also in the Baha'i Writings.

1 Corinthians 15
New Living Translation
40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.
42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever. 43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength. 44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

It is like we agree but don't agree at the same time.
I suppose that for a Christian the resurrection is a reality and is a bodily thing, even though the body has been transformed into a celestial body. It is like Baha'is want just a spirit and that the resurrection of the body did not happen with Jesus and will not happen with us. It seems to be a big sticking point even if Baha'is say, as you do: "a form of some kind, NOT a spirit."
and: "We will all be raised to live in a spiritual body"
Baha'i beliefs push Baha'is to deny the bodily resurrection of Jesus. It is like Baha'is don't believe that God can transform the physical body into an immortal and incorruptible body that can live in heaven.

How many times are we going to discuss this verse?
I will come again is not about the return of Christ in the same body He had when he walked the earth.

Jesus was going to heaven to prepare a place for His disciples.
How could Jesus come back to earth and take His disciples to heaven now? His disciples are no longer on earth.

His disciples are dead, but the dead are no more than spirit and a resurrected human is both spirit and body, even though the body is a "spiritual" body.

John 14:2-3 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

When Jesus said “I will come again” He was not referring to coming back to earth again. Jesus said that His work was finished here and He was no more in the world: (John 14:19, John 16:10, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30)

The dead are spirits and when Jesus returns He will bring them back with Him so that they can be resurrected into their resurrection body and be with Jesus forever.
We await a resurrection in which death is overcome.
1Thess 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

This is what 1Corinthians 15 also teaches.

1Cor 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”

As I always say, you are free to believe whatever you want to believe.

Jesus is the Christ and Baha'u'llah was the return of the Christ spirit in another person.
It is the Holy Spirit and the "Christ Spirit" which makes someone into the Christ or the return of Christ.
It is not the flesh body. That is where the Christians went off track.

Jesus was the Christ before He became a man and was the Christ before He was baptised and the Holy Spirit came to Him.
And now after saying "" It is the Holy Spirit and the "Christ Spirit" which makes someone into the Christ or the return of Christ."" you will also say that Jesus was the Christ when He was born.

1John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. 4 Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for che who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

Nobody can blame Jesus for the Christians' false beliefs about how the Body of Jesus is what made Him who He was since Jesus made it perfectly clear that the flesh amounts to nothing.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

John 3:36 means that our spirit is born again when we receive the Holy Spirit (Spirit of Truth), but we await the resurrection when our bodies also will be redeemed.
Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved.

John 6:63 is said when Jesus was saying that He gives His flesh to eat and His blood to drink. You have taken it out of context.

1John 2:16. Yes we need to overcome the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, but that does not make God's physical creation gross. In the resurrection we will all be able to overcome those things and in this life Christians are being changed into the image of Jesus.

With Jesus however, He did become a man and was resurrected bodily as real men are resurrected and returns to earth bodily in His resurrection body, the one that went to heaven and is immortal and incorruptible. It is not His body which made Him who He is however. He was anointed as the Christ from before the foundation of the earth, before He had a human body. As a man however, He is complete with a body and this body is part of how we recognise the return of Jesus.

 

[Trailblazer]

It is what the witnesses say happened.

Yes, they said that in the story.

It is like we agree but don't agree at the same time.
I suppose that for a Christian the resurrection is a reality and is a bodily thing, even though the body has been transformed into a celestial body. It is like Baha'is want just a spirit and that the resurrection of the body did not happen with Jesus and will not happen with us. It seems to be a big sticking point even if Baha'is say, as you do: "a form of some kind, NOT a spirit."
and: "We will all be raised to live in a spiritual body"

If the resurrection of the physical body of Jesus happened and the body of Jesus was transformed into a celestial body (a spiritual body) His physical body rising would have been a one-time miracle.....

What you are NOT understanding is that the same thing is not going to happen to anyone else. What I mean is that the physical bodies of Christians are not going to rise from their graves. They will die and be buried in the ground and stay there and their soul (spirit) will leave their bodies and ascend to heaven, where they will have a celestial body (a spiritual body).

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

When the spirit (soul) returns to God it will have a spiritual body. A spirit (soul) does not just float around in mid-air, it has to have a form of some kind.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 155-158

“If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths...”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 158-163

Baha'i beliefs push Baha'is to deny the bodily resurrection of Jesus. It is like Baha'is don't believe that God can transform the physical body into an immortal and incorruptible body that can live in heaven.

Here is the problem. Even if, and that is a big IF, the physical body of Jesus was transformed into an immortal and incorruptible body that can live in heaven that does not mean the same thing will happen to anyone else, as I explained above.

Our physical bodies will not be transformed into spiritual bodies. They will die and be no longer and after that God will give everyone a spiritual body that can exist in heaven.

“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 155-158

His disciples are dead, but the dead are no more than spirit

The disciples are in heaven as souls (spirits) and they have a spiritual body.

and a resurrected human is both spirit and body, even though the body is a "spiritual" body.

What you are spouting is Christian dogma.
There is no such thing as a resurrected human who is both spirit and body since the body of no human is resurrected from the grave.

The dead are spirits and when Jesus returns He will bring them back with Him so that they can be resurrected into their resurrection body and be with Jesus forever.
We await a resurrection in which death is overcome.

What you are spouting is Christian dogma.

The dead are spirits (souls) who are living in a spiritual body.
Nothing is going to happen when Jesus returns since Jesus is not going to return (John 14:19, John 16:10, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30)
Everyone who has ever died has a spiritual body so they don't have to WAIT for Jesus to return.
The only kind of death that can EVER be overcome is spiritual death. Physical death can never be overcome.

1Thess 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

If you interpret that verse literally it is patently absurd.

Those who have fallen asleep means those who are asleep in Christ, thus spiritually asleep (spiritually dead).
The dead in Christ would have to mean those who are spiritually dead in Christ, those who would come to recognize Christ
Jesus is not coming down from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call.
Nobody will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Jesus in the air.

These have to be the most ridiculous verses in the entire New Testament!

This is what 1Corinthians 15 also teaches.

1Cor 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”

The perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality means that the physical body which is perishable must be replaced by a spiritual body that is imperishable (immortal).

I suggest you read this article: Won’t the Dead Rise Again?

Won’t the Dead Rise Again?

If Christ’s resurrection is a spiritual one, then so must ours be. Paul makes this exact point when he compares the “first Adam” with “the last Adam”.

bahaiteachings.org

"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory. O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?”

Here, Paul depicts resurrection as spiritual, not physical. He says plainly that the “body” resurrected is not the physical body that is “sown” and that a “natural body” is followed by a “spiritual body”. He makes it clear that this spiritual body is nothing like the physical one, and uses two metaphors to make this point: the difference between mature grain and bare seed, and the difference between a moon and a sun."

Jesus was the Christ before He became a man and was the Christ before He was baptised and the Holy Spirit came to Him.
And now after saying "" It is the Holy Spirit and the "Christ Spirit" which makes someone into the Christ or the return of Christ."" you will also say that Jesus was the Christ when He was born.

That is correct. Jesus was destined to be the Christ before he was born on this earth and became a man.

The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.
(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)

(Continued on next post)

 

[Trailblazer]

John 3:36 means that our spirit is born again when we receive the Holy Spirit (Spirit of Truth), but we await the resurrection when our bodies also will be redeemed.
Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Means exactly what it says. He who believes in Jesus will have everlasting life and will not see condemnationm.
Everlasting life is a state of the soul who is close to God.

If you believe in Jesus there is nothing to wait for! You already have everlasting life.

John 6:63 is said when Jesus was saying that He gives His flesh to eat and His blood to drink. You have taken it out of context.

Sometimes the context is necessary to know what a verse means, but in this case it is not needed.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Means what it says. So many other verses in the NT say the same thing! It is the spirit that quickens; the flesh profits nothing.

1John 2:16. Yes we need to overcome the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, but that does not make God's physical creation gross. In the resurrection we will all be able to overcome those things and in this life Christians are being changed into the image of Jesus.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

No, it does not make God's physical creation gross. it is what some people do in the physical creation that is gross.
After more people have recognized Baha'u'llah and follow Him we will be able to overcome these things.

With Jesus however, He did become a man and was resurrected bodily as real men are resurrected and returns to earth bodily in His resurrection body, the one that went to heaven and is immortal and incorruptible. It is not His body which made Him who He is however. He was anointed as the Christ from before the foundation of the earth, before He had a human body.

It was the soul (spirit) of Christ that made Him who is was/is. His physical body was only a vehicle that was needed so He could do His work on earth.

As a man however, He is complete with a body and this body is part of how we recognise the return of Jesus.

That would be funny if it was not so sad, all these Christians waiting for Jesus to return when Jesus clearly said more than once that He was no more in this world.

But hypothetically speaking, let's say that the same Jesus who walked the earth 2000 years ago returned to earth.
How would you know it was Jesus, given we have no photographs of Jesus?

 

[joelr]

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Means exactly what it says. He who believes in Jesus will have everlasting life and will not see condemnationm.
Everlasting life is a state of the soul who is close to God.

If you believe in Jesus there is nothing to wait for! You already have everlasting life.

Sometimes the context is necessary to know what a verse means, but in this case it is not needed.

Myths borrowed from Greek Hellenism, still myth in the NT.



"Christian and Hellenistic ideas of redemption cannot be sharply separated.


The deity's resurrection from the dead gives to the initiates, who see their own destiny prefigured in his adventures, hope of a life after death.



The believer loses his individual consciousness in enthusiasm and receives the divinity into himself. In moments of orgiastic ecstasy he experiences the ultimate goal of his existence, abiding fellowship with the god, who, as redeemer and savior will free him through death from the finiteness, the suffering, and the exigencies of the earthly life. Orphism sets forth this religious experience in a mystic theology which exerts a strong influence upon Pindar and Empedocles, for example, and which suggested to Plato his magnificent treatise on the dest of the soul.

According to Posidonius the soul has a heavenly origin. It is an offshoot from the fiery breath of God held captive in the prison-house of the body through birth into the earthly world, but destined for return to its higher home. Only he who in life preserves the divine part from defilement will ascend after death above the lower spheres and rise to the divine source. Our reverence for the starry heaven above us and for the wonders of the cosmos proves the human soul's relation to the heavenly world, and this mystical consciousness of likeness with the divine begets an other-worldly ideal of life.


From the second century A.D. on we possess rich source materials regarding the mystery cults and the profusion of new religious developments which grow out of the syncretism of the time. These sources acquaint us with the prevailing religious tendencies of antiquity in its declining period. Purification and rebirth, mystical union of the believer with the deity and the hope of bliss in the future world, revelation and charismatic endowment which essentially constitute redemption-these are the motives dominating the rites, sacraments, faith, and teaching of this syncretism. As enjoined in the liturgy of the Phrygian mysteries.


wThe relationship of Christianity to Hellenism appears closer in the Ephesian letter. Here Christ is the supreme power of the entire spirit-world, exalting believers above the bondage of the inferior spirits into his upper kingdom (1: 18-22). Christians must struggle with these spirits, among whom the sKoopoipdrope6 (astral spirits) are named. In like manner from the second century on Christ is more frequently extolled as a deliverer from the power of fate.' When Ignatius regards Christ's work as the communication of ryv^oaR and &0c9apria, and the Eucharist as food of immortality, he, like the author of the Fourth Gospel, shows the influence of Greek mysticism. Irenaeus' realistic doctrine of redemption also has, in common with Greek mysticism, the fundamental notions of deification, abolition of death, imperishability, and gnosis."


HELLENISTIC IDEAS OF SALVATION IN THE LIGHT OF ANCIENT ANTHROPOLOGY


PAUL WENDLAND
University of Gattingen, Germany

 

[joelr]

​

I'd suppose this depends on what you view as moral behavior but I thought I'd ask the question to see what people would say.

It is easy to justify one's personal morals but I'd like you to consider the world at large. Is the world becoming more moral or less moral?

And, does this have anything to do with the decline of religious belief?

First violent crime is way way down.
The Middle Ages were a dangerous time to live, with some historians suggesting that violent crime was at least 10 times higher than it is today. For example, in 13th century England, there was roughly one murder per 20 villages each year. In the 1340s, Oxford had a homicide rate of 110 per 100,000, which was considered unacceptably high by contemporaries. In comparison, the UK's homicide rate in 2011 was 1 per 100,000.


Being religious certainly doesn't stop it. Covering up crime is also immoral.



About 250,000 cases of child sexual abuse in the church. But just what we know about in modern times.


The global scale of child sexual abuse in the Catholic Church


France


"An independent inquiry on Tuesday said it had concluded there were about 216,000 victims of sexual abuse carried out by the French Catholic Church’s clergy between 1950 and 2020."


Australia


It found that 4,444 alleged incidents of child sexual abuse had been reported to Church authorities. In some dioceses, more than 15 percent of priests were perpetrators.


Germany


It revealed that 314 minors, mostly boys under the age of 14, were sexually abused there between 1975 and 2018.

A German Bishops’ Conference study in 2018 had previously revealed widespread sexual abuse by German clergy.


United States


According to lawyers, more than 11,000 complaints have been lodged in the US by victims of priests. Dioceses have paid out hundreds of millions of dollars in out of court settlements.


Ireland


Accusations of large-scale sex crimes in Ireland’s Catholic institutions go back decades, with the number of underage victims estimated at nearly 15,000 between 1970 and 1990 alone. Several bishops and priests accused of covering up abuse have been punished.


The official Ryan Commission report in 2009 found widespread abuse of children in Catholic-run institutions between the 1930s and the 1970s.

It said church-run orphanages and industrial schools were places of fear, neglect and endemic sexual abuse.

The 2009 Murphy report into the Dublin archdiocese said that between 1975 and 2004 the Church had “obsessively” concealed abuse.

And after another highly critical report in 2011, into the Cloyne diocese, the Vatican recalled its ambassador after the then Irish premier accused it of obstructing investigations into sexual abuse by priests.

 

[Brian2]

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Means exactly what it says. He who believes in Jesus will have everlasting life and will not see condemnationm.
Everlasting life is a state of the soul who is close to God.

If you deny the Biblical teaching of the redemption of the body at the resurrection, I can understand that. You are a Baha'i after all.

Sometimes the context is necessary to know what a verse means, but in this case it is not needed.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Means what it says. So many other verses in the NT say the same thing! It is the spirit that quickens; the flesh profits nothing.

I pointed out the context, which is when Jesus was teaching that His flesh is food and His blood drink. This was causing a problem and believers in Jesus were leaving. Jesus told His disciples that the flesh profits nothing, but it is His words that are important. Jesus is the Word of God and believing and acting on what He says is important and not eating His actual body.
Yes the context is important, and in this case we can see what Jesus meant by the context. Yes the body of Jesus is not what makes Jesus into ALL of who He is, but it does make Jesus into a man and Baha'i want to deny Jesus manhood after the resurrection and it seems also during His life on earth. Jesus was a man and needed a body to be a living man. He was not just a spirit living inside, trapped inside a body, He was a spirit joined to a body, a flesh and blood man and the meaning of resurrection is that the man came back to life. Life/ His soul, came back to and animated His body, and in the case of Jesus the body was transformed, just described in 1Cor 15 etc.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

No, it does not make God's physical creation gross. it is what some people do in the physical creation that is gross.
After more people have recognized Baha'u'llah and follow Him we will be able to overcome these things.

It is after the resurrection when we have a spiritual body that we will be able to fully overcome the lusts and desires of the flesh. This is what a "spiritual body" means. It does not mean that it is made of spirit, it means that our spirit is able to control it.
There is no need for a resurrection in Baha'i. We die and our soul goes to heaven and that is it. Baha'i teaching has to deny the Biblical teaching of the resurrection.

It was the soul (spirit) of Christ that made Him who is was/is. His physical body was only a vehicle that was needed so He could do His work on earth.

NO, He actually became a man. This Baha'i teaching which you reproduce so succinctly shows that the spirit of Baha'i is the spirit of the antichrist. See 1John 4:3 and 2John 7. The Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us. (John 1:14) This human Word also comes back in the flesh.

That would be funny if it was not so sad, all these Christians waiting for Jesus to return when Jesus clearly said more than once that He was no more in this world.

But hypothetically speaking, let's say that the same Jesus who walked the earth 2000 years ago returned to earth.
How would you know it was Jesus, given we have no photographs of Jesus?

When Jesus returns how the Bible says that He will return and in the flesh, He will also actually do those things that the Bible tells us He will do. It won't actually be a case of being able to ignore Him if He does not fit what we think the return of Jesus should be. Nobody will be able to ignore Him and just go about their normal life. It will be the last of the last days, everything will be completely different from then on.

 

[Brian2]

Yes, they said that in the story.

Yes and believers have faith in the Word of God.

If the resurrection of the physical body of Jesus happened and the body of Jesus was transformed into a celestial body (a spiritual body) His physical body rising would have been a one-time miracle.....

What you are NOT understanding is that the same thing is not going to happen to anyone else. What I mean is that the physical bodies of Christians are not going to rise from their graves. They will die and be buried in the ground and stay there and their soul (spirit) will leave their bodies and ascend to heaven, where they will have a celestial body (a spiritual body).

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Eccles 12:7 is not speaking about the resurrection, just about what happens when we die.

Here is the problem. Even if, and that is a big IF, the physical body of Jesus was transformed into an immortal and incorruptible body that can live in heaven that does not mean the same thing will happen to anyone else, as I explained above.

Our physical bodies will not be transformed into spiritual bodies. They will die and be no longer and after that God will give everyone a spiritual body that can exist in heaven.

Baha'u'llah does not seem to have known about the Biblical teaching that Heavenly Jerusalem and God and the Lamb (Jesus) are going to come down to earth. We aren't going to be in heaven forever.

The disciples are in heaven as souls (spirits) and they have a spiritual body.

The disciples are in heaven as souls/spirits and when Jesus returns they will be brought back by Jesus to be resurrected and given their resurrection bodies. (1Thess 4:13-18)

What you are spouting is Christian dogma.
There is no such thing as a resurrected human who is both spirit and body since the body of no human is resurrected from the grave.

One of the things that Jesus said He would do when He returns will be to raise the dead from the graves. (see John 5)
That is one of those plain things in the Bible which Baha'u'llah has changed the definition of,,,,,,,,,,,,, no doubt because it is something that he was not able to do.

What you are spouting is Christian dogma.

The dead are spirits (souls) who are living in a spiritual body.
Nothing is going to happen when Jesus returns since Jesus is not going to return (John 14:19, John 16:10, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30)
Everyone who has ever died has a spiritual body so they don't have to WAIT for Jesus to return.
The only kind of death that can EVER be overcome is spiritual death. Physical death can never be overcome.

You are spouting Baha'i dogma, which disagrees with Biblical teaching, both about the resurrection of Jesus and about the resurrection of anyone.
The plain fact is that "resurrection" in ancient times was a bodily thing. That is just the meaning of the word. People coming back to life, as people, not as spirits. Sure the spirit/soul leaves the body at the death of the body but that is NOT a resurrection.

If you interpret that verse literally it is patently absurd.

Those who have fallen asleep means those who are asleep in Christ, thus spiritually asleep (spiritually dead).
The dead in Christ would have to mean those who are spiritually dead in Christ, those who would come to recognize Christ
Jesus is not coming down from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call.
Nobody will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Jesus in the air.

These have to be the most ridiculous verses in the entire New Testament!

You can put 1Thess 4:14-18 in the long list of Biblical verses that Baha'is say are ridiculous. Those who believe Baha'u'llah are influenced by the spirit of the antichrist and deny the Biblical teachings.

The perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality means that the physical body which is perishable must be replaced by a spiritual body that is imperishable (immortal).

I suggest you read this article: Won’t the Dead Rise Again?

Interesting article about 1Cor 15 but the conclusions reached are the opposite to what 1Cor 15 says. I can understand this since some things in 1Cor 15 seem to point to the conclusion that the writer of the article reaches. If you want to discuss 1Cor 15 we can.
But yes our resurrection body is going to be different to our natural body.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Atheism definitely leads to immoral behavior.

This atheist considers that comment, you, and the religion that makes you think it's OK to make such a horrible comment immoral.

But there is severe immortality among fanatical religious people.

Yes, I can see that.

Do you consider yourself an exception? I don't. Your prior comment makes you fanatical to me. Who but a fanatic thinks or writes like that? What a disgusting thing to say.

The world would be better if there weren't religions teaching people to be so hateful.

 

[Trailblazer]

This atheist considers that comment, you, and the religion that makes you think it's OK to make such a horrible comment immoral.

I don't exactly consider it immoral but rather totally unfounded as well as sad.

Yes, I can see that.

Do you consider yourself an exception? I don't. Your prior comment makes you fanatical to me. Who but a fanatic thinks or writes like that? What a disgusting thing to say.

Yes, usually a fanatic would write something like that but sometimes it just slips out from the unconscious mind.

The world would be better if there weren't religions teaching people to be so hateful.

That is not what the Baha'i Faith teaches, and it is not what Jesus taught.

26: O SON OF BEING! How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me.

66: O EMIGRANTS! The tongue I have designed for the mention of Me, defile it not with detraction. If the fire of self overcome you, remember your own faults and not the faults of My creatures, inasmuch as every one of you knoweth his own self better than he knoweth others.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh

reference.bahai.org

Matthew 7:3-5 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

This atheist considers that comment, you, and the religion that makes you think it's OK to make such a horrible comment immoral.

Frankly speaking Anyone who is not perfectly following the Laws and teachings of the latest Manifestation of God, would have some immorality.

Yes, I can see that.

Do you consider yourself an exception?

Anyone.

it is not the matter of who is immoral and who is not. All are immoral. It is about how immoral every single person on earth is.

Don't take it personal though.

I don't. Your prior comment makes you fanatical to me. Who but a fanatic thinks or writes like that? What a disgusting thing to say.

did my additional elaboration change your opinion about what I wrote before?

The world would be better if there weren't religions teaching people to be so hateful.

I agree.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I don't exactly consider it immoral but rather totally unfounded as well as sad.

Yes, usually a fanatic would write something like that but sometimes it just slips out from the unconscious mind.

That is not what the Baha'i Faith teaches, and it is not what Jesus taught.

26: O SON OF BEING! How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me.

66: O EMIGRANTS! The tongue I have designed for the mention of Me, defile it not with detraction. If the fire of self overcome you, remember your own faults and not the faults of My creatures, inasmuch as every one of you knoweth his own self better than he knoweth others.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh

reference.bahai.org

Matthew 7:3-5 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

This:

"Thus have the mighty verses of Thy Lord been again sent down unto thee, that thou mayest arise to remember God, the Creator of earth and heaven, in these days when all the tribes of the earth have mourned, and the foundations of the cities have trembled, and the dust of irreligion hath enwrapped all men, except such as God, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise, was pleased to spare"

Baha'u'llah

 

[Trailblazer]

This:

"Thus have the mighty verses of Thy Lord been again sent down unto thee, that thou mayest arise to remember God, the Creator of earth and heaven, in these days when all the tribes of the earth have mourned, and the foundations of the cities have trembled, and the dust of irreligion hath enwrapped all men, except such as God, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise, was pleased to spare"

Baha'u'llah

That is true and there are more verses like that one.

“The vitality of men’s belief in God is dying out in every land; nothing short of His wholesome medicine can ever restore it. The corrosion of ungodliness is eating into the vitals of human society; what else but the Elixir of His potent Revelation can cleanse and revive it? Is it within human power, O Hakím, to effect in the constituent elements of any of the minute and indivisible particles of matter so complete a transformation as to transmute it into purest gold? Perplexing and difficult as this may appear, the still greater task of converting satanic strength into heavenly power is one that We have been empowered to accomplish. The Force capable of such a transformation transcendeth the potency of the Elixir itself. The Word of God, alone, can claim the distinction of being endowed with the capacity required for so great and far-reaching a change.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Page 200

However, that does not mean that atheists like @It Aint Necessarily So are any more immoral than a believer.
I do not believe he is immoral at all. I find him to be very moral.

 

[F1fan]

Frankly speaking Anyone who is not perfectly following the Laws and teachings of the latest Manifestation of God, would have some immorality.

The major flaw in this statement is that there are no Gods known to exist, and nor any manifestations of any Gods, so to assert that a person could follow laws and teachings of a religion perfectly is irrational since the believer could be mistaken about a God existing. Humans have a long history of following the laws and rules of criminal governments and immoral organizations, like the KKK and the National Socialists, and that itself doesn't imply a moral member and follower. Look at Baha'i, they have to adopt the bogotry of anti-gay prejudices, so right there any atheist who accepts gays and advocates for their equality under secular law is morally superior.

it is not the matter of who is immoral and who is not. All are immoral.

Does this mean you don;t perfectly follow the laws of your chosen religion?

It is about how immoral every single person on earth is.

As a collective?

 

[Trailblazer]

If you deny the Biblical teaching of the redemption of the body at the resurrection, I can understand that. You are a Baha'i after all.

The Christian belief about redemption of the body comes from Paul, not Jesus, so yes, I deny it.

I pointed out the context, which is when Jesus was teaching that His flesh is food and His blood drink. This was causing a problem and believers in Jesus were leaving. Jesus told His disciples that the flesh profits nothing, but it is His words that are important. Jesus is the Word of God and believing and acting on what He says is important and not eating His actual body.

Yes, that's true. The flesh profits nothing, it is His words that are important.

Yes the context is important, and in this case we can see what Jesus meant by the context. Yes the body of Jesus is not what makes Jesus into ALL of who He is, but it does make Jesus into a man and Baha'i want to deny Jesus manhood after the resurrection and it seems also during His life on earth. Jesus was a man and needed a body to be a living man. He was not just a spirit living inside, trapped inside a body, He was a spirit joined to a body, a flesh and blood man and the meaning of resurrection is that the man came back to life. Life/ His soul, came back to and animated His body, and in the case of Jesus the body was transformed, just described in 1Cor 15 etc.

That is what Baha'is believe.

Baha'is do not deny Jesus' manhood during His life on earth. Jesus was a man and needed a body to be a living man. He was not just a spirit living inside, trapped inside a body. He was a spirit joined to a body, a flesh and blood man.

The resurrection of Jesus' physical body was not necessary for a transformation to take place as described in 1Cor 15 etc.
The same kind of transformation happens to all of us when we die and God gives us a new spiritual body.

It is after the resurrection when we have a spiritual body that we will be able to fully overcome the lusts and desires of the flesh. This is what a "spiritual body" means. It does not mean that it is made of spirit, it means that our spirit is able to control it.

When we have a spiritual body we will not need to overcome the lusts and desires of the flesh because we will have no flesh.
A spiritual body is a body that is comprised of spiritual elements rather than physical elements.

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.”
(Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194)

Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Pages 193-196

That does not mean that our bodies will be made of spirit, and as I just said, there will be no need to control anything since we won't be able to eat, drink, and have sex in a spiritual body!

There is no need for a resurrection in Baha'i. We die and our soul goes to heaven and that is it. Baha'i teaching has to deny the Biblical teaching of the resurrection.

The accurate biblical meaning of resurrection is as follows and it does not come from the Baha'i Writings.
Pay close attention to the last sentence.

421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life.
(Heaven and Hell, p. 351)

https://swedenborg.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/swedenborg_foundation_heaven_and_hell.pdf

What the Christian above wrote above is congruent with the Bible. The physical body returns to the earth and the spirit returns to God, who resides in the spiritual world.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The death of man is merely his soul passing from one world into another. When the soul passes from this world into the spiritual world it takes on a new form comprised of spiritual elements and the man continues to live forever.

NO, He actually became a man. This Baha'i teaching which you reproduce so succinctly shows that the spirit of Baha'i is the spirit of the antichrist. See 1John 4:3 and 2John 7. The Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us. (John 1:14) This human Word also comes back in the flesh.

I never denied that Jesus became a man! I only said that it was the soul (spirit) of Christ that made Him who is was/is, meaning that it was the soul that was the person of jesus. His physical body was only a vehicle that was needed so He could do His work on earth.

As for Baha'u'llah not being the antichrist, I already have that covered.
Christianity is not the only way to God

When Jesus returns how the Bible says that He will return and in the flesh,

No, the Bible does not say that Jesus will return in the flesh, YOU say that.
Please do not post Acts 1:9-11 again as that is not anything but the musings of some angels, at best.

Why do you keep forcing me to post the same four verses over and over and over again?

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Jesus never promised to return to earth, not once in the New Testament. Jesus said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world. That means that the return of Christ has to be another Person. I believe that Person was Baha'u'llah but you are free to wait for Jesus to return till hell freezes over. Eventually you will see Jesus in heaven and He will clear this up, but He will be none too happy that you did not recognize His spirit when it returned in Baha'u'llah, as Jesus promised would happen.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The major flaw in this statement is that there are no Gods known to exist, and nor any manifestations of any Gods,

Perhaps It is not known to you. But might be known to some.

so to assert that a person could follow laws and teachings of a religion perfectly is irrational since the believer could be mistaken about a God existing.

The believers could be wrong about their belief in a god, but, some of them may also be right.

Humans have a long history of following the laws and rules of criminal governments and immoral organizations, like the KKK and the National Socialists, and that itself doesn't imply a moral member and follower.

When I say Laws and teachings, I am not just reffering to the social laws. I am talking about spiritual Laws. For example "honestly, kindness, generosity, forgiveness, patience, purity of heart, etc"

Look at Baha'i, they have to adopt the bogotry of anti-gay prejudices, so right there any atheist who accepts gays and advocates for their equality under secular law is morally superior.

Bahai faith does not have anti-gay prejudices. It teaches that, sex is meant to be between a married man and woman. It is obvious teaching. But Baha'is do not mistreat the gay people.

Does this mean you don;t perfectly follow the laws of your chosen religion?

Yes, I am not. It is not easy as one may think to follow all the teachings.

As a collective?

As well as individuals. Look at the society. People at all the time, are after money, sex, and other selfish desires. They are greedy, they fight with each other, they lie to each other, they back bite, they hurt other, they take the rights of others whenever they can. There is sooo much immorality in the world.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes and believers have faith in the Word of God.

And as a believer I have faith in the Word of God that came through Baha'u'llah.

In the context of the following passage, the City of God is the Revelation of God vouchsafed from God to humanity.

“They that valiantly labor in quest of God, will, when once they have renounced all else but Him, be so attached and wedded unto that City, that a moment’s separation from it would to them be unthinkable. They will hearken unto infallible proofs from the Hyacinth of that assembly, and will receive the surest testimonies from the beauty of its Rose, and the melody of its Nightingale. Once in about a thousand years shall this City be renewed and readorned….

That City is none other than the Word of God revealed in every age and dispensation. In the days of Moses it was the Pentateuch; in the days of Jesus, the Gospel; in the days of Muhammad, the Messenger of God, the Qur’án; in this day, the Bayán; and in the Dispensation of Him Whom God will make manifest, His own Book—the Book unto which all the Books of former Dispensations must needs be referred, the Book that standeth amongst them all transcendent and supreme.”
(Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 269-270)

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 264-270

Eccles 12:7 is not speaking about the resurrection, just about what happens when we die.

What happens when we die IS the resurrection as I just explained in my previous post!

Christian dogma has all this so fouled up.

Baha'u'llah does not seem to have known about the Biblical teaching that Heavenly Jerusalem and God and the Lamb (Jesus) are going to come down to earth. We aren't going to be in heaven forever.

THAT is not a biblical teaching. It is one of many different Christian teachings that come from their respective Bible interpretations.

Yes, there will be a kingdom of God that will come to earth, a new world order that will be built by humans, but the other kingdom of God is in heaven.

Everyone who dies will be in the spiritual world forever, in heaven or hell.

The disciples are in heaven as souls/spirits and when Jesus returns

There will be no 'when Jesus returns.' That is the fly in the ointment.

they will be brought back by Jesus to be resurrected and given their resurrection bodies. (1Thess 4:13-18)

Again, that is Christian dogma which is based upon a misinterpretation of the Bible verses.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 King James Version (KJV) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Share - Bible.com

One of the things that Jesus said He would do when He returns will be to raise the dead from the graves. (see John 5)
That is one of those plain things in the Bible which Baha'u'llah has changed the definition of,,,,,,,,,,,,, no doubt because it is something that he was not able to do.

John 5

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

ALL those verses are about the spiritually dead, being raised to spiritual life, passing from spiritual death to spiritual life, arising from the grave of ignorance of Christ. They have NOTHING to do with being raised from the grave back to physical life. You believe in Christian dogma based upon a misinterpretation of verses.

Indeed, that is what Baha'u'llah was able to do, bring people back from spiritual death to spiritual life.

You are spouting Baha'i dogma, which disagrees with Biblical teaching, both about the resurrection of Jesus and about the resurrection of anyone.
The plain fact is that "resurrection" in ancient times was a bodily thing. That is just the meaning of the word. People coming back to life, as people, not as spirits. Sure the spirit/soul leaves the body at the death of the body but that is NOT a resurrection.

Maybe in ancient times people believed that "resurrection" was a bodily thing but people in modern times know that physical bodies do not come back to life once dead.

The resurrection is what is described in my previous post so I have no need to repeat all of that again.

"the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life." (Heaven and Hell, p. 351)

You can put 1Thess 4:14-18 in the long list of Biblical verses that Baha'is say are ridiculous. Those who believe Baha'u'llah are influenced by the spirit of the antichrist and deny the Biblical teachings.

I deny the absurd verses that were written by Paul and so do many other people. not just Baha'is.

Interesting article about 1Cor 15 but the conclusions reached are the opposite to what 1Cor 15 says. I can understand this since some things in 1Cor 15 seem to point to the conclusion that the writer of the article reaches. If you want to discuss 1Cor 15 we can.
But yes our resurrection body is going to be different to our natural body.

You mean that the conclusions reached are the opposite to what you believe 1Cor 15 says.
I am open to discussing the meaning of that chapter.

 

[F1fan]

Perhaps It is not known to you. But might be known to some.

Odd how different Gods are only known to their specific tribe members, and no one else. Almost as if there's vivid imaginations being mistaken for reality. Note that facts are evident to anyone, and don't require special assumptions or beliefs. As I said, Gods are not known to exist.

The believers could be wrong about their belief in a god, but, some of them may also be right.

Until they provide exceptional evidence there is no reason to trust what believers claim. Believers don't seek truth, they seek reasons to believe.

When I say Laws and teachings, I am not just reffering to the social laws. I am talking about spiritual Laws. For example "honestly, kindness, generosity, forgiveness, patience, purity of heart, etc"

Those are not limited to religions. They are virtues that any decent person will pursue. They are virtues many believers lack. How would the Baha'i describe their feelings towards gays? I doubt any of your "spiritual laws" allows them any of your virtuous words.

Bahai faith does not have anti-gay prejudices. It teaches that, sex is meant to be between a married man and woman. It is obvious teaching. But Baha'is do not mistreat the gay people.

Too late to put that toothpaste back in the tube. You have a choice to think for yourself, but you gave up your freedom of though to a religion. And for what? Most atheists on this forum have superior morals in this regard, as we recognize the rights for gays to have equality and freedom.

Yes, I am not. It is not easy as one may think to follow all the teachings.

Odd why anyone would want to follow a religious dogma when they are capable of free throught and their own journey? Look at what is risked, hoping it's all true, and never knowing for certain.

As well as individuals. Look at the society. People at all the time, are after money, sex, and other selfish desires.

And what is wrong with pleasure? It's the boogeyman of many religions that want to control the masses. And you bought into it. The Enlightenment exposed the nonsense of such archaic prohibitions, and the Baha'i missed out on being a modern religion that has tolerance and wisdom.

They are greedy, they fight with each other, they lie to each other, they back bite, they hurt other, they take the rights of others whenever they can. There is sooo much immorality in the world.

And look at what you do with your fellow competing religions. You have a greed for "truth" and you argue with others who claim they have it. So you are so absorbed in your dogma you can't reflect on your hypocrisy. That's the liability of being an empty agent for a religion, and having no freedom of thought.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Frankly speaking Anyone who is not perfectly following the Laws and teachings of the latest Manifestation of God, would have some immorality.

There it is. Anybody not obeying your version of a god is immoral according to you. Posting that makes you immoral to me. A good person doesn't promulgate such things.

it is not the matter of who is immoral and who is not. All are immoral. It is about how immoral every single person on earth is.

Yet you singled out atheists. Now you want to dilute that by including everybody else. That doesn't make anything better.

Don't take it personal though.

LOL. You insulted me and every other atheist, and now you want a pass. No.

did my additional elaboration change your opinion about what I wrote before?

Why would it? It didn't include a sincere apology or retraction, so it changes neither my opinion of what you are nor my opinion of the religion that made you that way. You don't get a pass for that behavior just because someone told you that it's also your god's opinion.

Bahai faith does not have anti-gay prejudices. It teaches that, sex is meant to be between a married man and woman

That's anti-gay bigotry. They're immoral to you as well.

Here's how it is: you can spread your religions bigotries, but you have to wear the mantle of bigotry when you do. You don't get to make such comments without coming under moral scrutiny yourself. Humanists have a different set of values and are as free to express them to you when give your bigoted viewpoints as you feel when you express them.