Does Atheism Lead to Immoral Behavior?

[Trailblazer]

Denying the divine nature of Jesus is a common claim of the many groups that attack Christianity, but that has only a minor relationship to what I said.

Baha'u'llah did not deny the divine nature of Jesus. He said that Jesus had a twofold nature, one nature human and the other nature divine.

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” …. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 64-69

My main point is that the Baha'i idea of "Messengers" and what they are is something of Baha'i and it is not of the religions and people to whom Baha'i applies the title and description, and that includes the people in the Bible whom Baha'i want to say are "Messengers" together with Baha'u'llah. It is an invention which is clearly wrong if we look at the description of these others in the other religions.

Messengers is only a word. They can also be called prophets and other religions call them prophets. Baha'u'llah also called them prophets as many times as He called them Messengers. It doesn't matter what they are called. The point is that they all bring a message from God.

So Jesus is the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) and Baha'u'llah promised Jesus (the Holy Spirit) to all those who accept Baha'u'llah as a Manifestation of God. But Jesus had already promised to come with the Father and make His home with those who love Him. (John 14:23). There is no need for anything that Baha'u'llah claims to offer, it is already given by Jesus.

No, that is not correct. Jesus was 'the Spirit of God' which is not the same as the same as the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the bounty of God whose luminous rays emanated from Jesus.

Jesus promised the Spirit of Truth (Baha'u'llah) would come and bring the Holy Spirit and guide us to all truth.

“O kings of Christendom! Heard ye not the saying of Jesus, the Spirit of God, “I go away, and come again unto you”? Wherefore, then, did ye fail, when He did come again unto you in the clouds of heaven, to draw nigh unto Him, that ye might behold His face, and be of them that attained His Presence? In another passage He saith: “When He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth.”
Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 246-249

Welllll, there does seem to be a bit of "I am the best Manifestation" in what Baha'u'llah says.
“We, in truth, have sent Him Whom We aided with the Holy Spirit (Jesus Christ) that He may announce unto you this Light that hath shone forth from the horizon of the will of your Lord, the Most Exalted, the All-Glorious, and Whose signs have been revealed in the West. Set your faces towards Him (Bahá’u’lláh) on this Day which God hath exalted above all other days, and whereon the All-Merciful hath shed the splendour of His effulgent glory upon all who are in heaven and all who are on earth.”
Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 17-23

There is none of the "I am the best Manifestation" in the passage above. What it says is that this is the Day which God hath exalted above all other days since it is the Day of God.

“In the Book of Isaiah it is written: “Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of His majesty.” No man that meditateth upon this verse can fail to recognize the greatness of this Cause, or doubt the exalted character of this Day—the Day of God Himself. This same verse is followed by these words: “And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that Day.” This is the Day which the Pen of the Most High hath glorified in all the holy Scriptures. There is no verse in them that doth not declare the glory of His holy Name, and no Book that doth not testify unto the loftiness of this most exalted theme. Were We to make mention of all that hath been revealed in these heavenly Books and holy Scriptures concerning this Revelation, this Tablet would assume impossible dimensions.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 12-14

reference.bahai.org

As for the highlighted part of the quote that you gave, that's not only ridiculous, it shows that Baha'u'llah had no idea of the gospel message and what Jesus did to accomplish this salvation that He offers. (Or maybe he just did not want others to see the uniqueness of the gospel message of Jesus and wanted to squash it,,,,,,,,,,,, as the spirit of the antichrist wants to do)

"Whoso maketh the slightest possible difference between their persons, their words, their messages, their acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His signs, and betrayed the Cause of His Messengers.”

Why? Because the works and acts of each and every one of these Manifestations of God and whatever pertains to them was all ordained by God, and a reflection of His Will and Purpose. This is the true meaning of Divine Unity.

But that does not mean that the person and mission of Jesus was not greater than that of the other Manifestations of God. The person and mission of Jesus was as great as the person and mission of Baha'u'llah.

“Know that the attributes of perfection, the splendor of the divine bounties, and the lights of inspiration are visible and evident in all the Holy Manifestations; but the glorious Word of God, Christ, and the Greatest Name, Bahá’u’lláh, are manifestations and evidences which are beyond imagination, for They possess all the perfections of the former Manifestations; and more than that, They possess some perfections which make the other Manifestations dependent upon Them. So all the Prophets of Israel were centers of inspiration; Christ also was a receiver of inspiration, but what a difference between the inspiration of the Word of God and the revelations of Isaiah, Jeremiah and Elijah!”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 146-150

Even Baha'u'llah says that Jesus promised to return, but you say that Jesus said that He would not return. I agree with Baha'u'llah on this one,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but of course Jesus promised to return in person so I have to disagree with Baha'u'llah that he (Baha'u'llah) is the return of Jesus or that Baha'u'llah came on the clouds of heaven.

“O kings of Christendom! Heard ye not the saying of Jesus, the Spirit of God, “I go away, and come again unto you”? Wherefore, then, did ye fail, when He did come again unto you in the clouds of heaven, to draw nigh unto Him, that ye might behold His face, and be of them that attained His Presence? In another passage He saith: “When He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth.”
Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 246-249

No, Baha'u'llah did not say that Jesus promised to return in the same body, which is what Christians are waiting for.
Jesus promised that His Spirit would return in another Manifestation of God.

Baha'u'llah certainly did come on the clouds of heaven, which is figurative, not literal.

The title ‘Son of man’ is symbolic of the perfect humanity that Jesus represented, but it does not apply exclusively to Jesus. It ultimately comes from the Book of Daniel, where it refers to the Messiah. It is a Baha’i teaching that the title applies to both Jesus and Baha’u’llah.

To explain in brief, ‘Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven’ means that the return of the Christ Spirit promised in the Bible will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God, and will appear in the form of a human being. The term “heaven” means loftiness and exaltation. Although Jesus was delivered from the womb of His mother, in reality He descended from the heaven of the will of God. Though dwelling on this earth, His true habitation was the realms above. While walking among mortals on earth, Jesus soared in the heaven of the divine presence.

Baha’u’llah explained the meaning of clouds in The Kitáb-i-Íqán. The term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, the desires of men hindered men from recognizing the return of Christ. Thus the meaning of clouds is symbolic, not literal. Their judgment was clouded. Christians were looking for the same man Jesus in the same body that resurrected and ascended to appear in the actual physical clouds in the sky with power and great glory, trumpets and angels, but when that did not happen that way they rejected Baha’u’llah. However, if one looks at what happened before, during and after Baha’u’llah appeared there is not one prophecy that cannot be applied to Him.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

In the OT and NT God's Spirit can be see to be alive and have qualities that a living being has.

Brian2 I'm not making this up. We don't have to agree on this, it's okay. But when Jews read the Tanakh we really do NOT see the ruach of God as being an entity. I think that because you are constantly exposed to the idea that the Holy Spirit is a person, it is very difficult for you to see it any other way.

 

[Brian2]

Brian2 I'm not making this up. We don't have to agree on this, it's okay. But when Jews read the Tanakh we really do NOT see the ruach of God as being an entity. I think that because you are constantly exposed to the idea that the Holy Spirit is a person, it is very difficult for you to see it any other way.

It isn't really difficult for me to see it other ways.

 

[Brian2]

However, if one looks at what happened before, during and after Baha’u’llah appeared there is not one prophecy that cannot be applied to Him.

Acts 1: 9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, the was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. 10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

This prophecy cannot be applied to Baha'u'llah and so no prophecies can apply to him.

 

[paarsurrey]

Does Atheism Lead to Immoral Behavior?

Under what definition of morality, please, right?
Anybody, please

Regards

 

[Trailblazer]

Acts 1: 9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, the was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. 10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

This prophecy cannot be applied to Baha'u'llah and so no prophecies can apply to him.

No, it cannot be applied to Baha'ullah and I won't try to apply it to Him again.

That is not a prophecy. Prophecies come from prophets and promises come from Jesus.
Those verses are just some angels who allegedly saw Jesus ascend and BELIEVED that He would return as He ascended.

Jesus said He was no more in this world which means that He was never coming back to this world.
That is why Jesus has not come back, not because He got delayed.

You cannot get around what Jesus said by quoting from Acts, but you can continue to wait for Jesus along with all the other Christians..

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

 

[Brian2]

That is not a prophecy. Prophecies come from prophets and promises come from Jesus.
Those verses are just some angels who allegedly saw Jesus ascend and BELIEVED that He would return as He ascended.

Other angels throughout the OT and in the gospels have given prophecies that have come true. But I guess Baha'is decide which parts of the Bible they will accept and reject.
Even Baha'u'llah tells us that John 14:3 means that Jesus claimed that He would come back.
“O kings of Christendom! Heard ye not the saying of Jesus, the Spirit of God, “I go away, and come again unto you”? Wherefore, then, did ye fail, when He did come again unto you in the clouds of heaven, to draw nigh unto Him, that ye might behold His face, and be of them that attained His Presence? In another passage He saith: “When He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth.”
Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 246-249

But of course who can believe what Baha'u'llah said when he did not even know that the Spirit of Truth was to guide the disciples whom Jesus was talking to into all true. (IOW it could not be a man who was born 1800 years after the apostles.

Jesus said He was no more in this world which means that He was never coming back to this world.
That is why Jesus has not come back, not because He got delayed.

You cannot get around what Jesus said by quoting from Acts, but you can continue to wait for Jesus along with all the other Christians..

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

You cannot get around what Acts says (Acts 1:9-11) and what Jesus said ((John 14:3) by taking Jesus quotes out of context.
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
Notice that Jesus said here that His disciples would see Him.
John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.
Notice that Jesus said here that his disciples would see Him no more.
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Notice that Jesus said here that He had finished the work that God had given Him to do,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but that He actually had not finished the work at that time. But by taking that verse out of context and absolutely literally you could claim that the rest of the gospels and what Jesus said and did in them is not a part of his work that God gave him to do.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
John 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.
Notice that this verse tells us what Jesus meant by all those verses that you take out of context. He meant that He was going to remain no longer in the world because He was going to go back to heaven and to His Father.
Of course it helps to have a good translation. With the translation that you use, you could say that Jesus was not in the world when He said John 17:11.
Maybe you should do that and then you could claim that the crucifixion and resurrection did not happen and that Jesus did not come back and speak to His disciples after the resurrection and rise into heaven. Well you deny most of that anyway I guess.

You also cannot get around Jesus identification of Himself as the Son of Man (eg Luke 9:22) and that the Father has given all judgement to the Son (John 5) and that He, the Son would resurrect the dead and judge them, whether they should have life or not.
John 5:20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Look, here is an expanded picture of what will happen when Jesus, the Son of Man, comes and raises the dead and judges them, whether they should have life or not.
Matt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[Trailblazer]

Other angels throughout the OT and in the gospels have given prophecies that have come true. But I guess Baha'is decide which parts of the Bible they will accept and reject.

My point was that it doesn't matter what angels said because angels are not prophets, and they carry no authority.

Even Baha'u'llah tells us that John 14:3 means that Jesus claimed that He would come back.
“O kings of Christendom! Heard ye not the saying of Jesus, the Spirit of God, “I go away, and come again unto you”? Wherefore, then, did ye fail, when He did come again unto you in the clouds of heaven, to draw nigh unto Him, that ye might behold His face, and be of them that attained His Presence? In another passage He saith: “When He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth.”
Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 246-249

Jesus saying “I go away, and come again unto you” was not Jesus saying that the body of Jesus would come again. Jesus was referring to His spirit coming again, and it did come again, in Baha'u'llah. https://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-116.html.utf8?query=Spirit|Jesus&action=highlight

But of course who can believe what Baha'u'llah said when he did not even know that the Spirit of Truth was to guide the disciples whom Jesus was talking to into all true. (IOW it could not be a man who was born 1800 years after the apostles.

No, that is just a Christian belief. As you know, Baha'is believe that the Spirit of truth was Baha'u'llah, who brought the Holy Spirit.
Considering the context of all the verses that mention the Spirit of Truth it is obvious that it is not the Holy Spirit guiding the disciples.
But of course we have already covered this topic many times before.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

One of the various proofs that Baha'u'llah was the Comforter and the Spirit of truth is that Baha’u’llah did EXACTLY what Jesus said the Comforter and Spirit of truth would do. Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah testified of Jesus and glorified Jesus.

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.

We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 85-86

You cannot get around what Acts says (Acts 1:9-11) and what Jesus said ((John 14:3) by taking Jesus quotes out of context.
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
Notice that Jesus said here that His disciples would see Him.

The verse does not say that the disciples would see Jesus on earth again, which is what you are waiting for. In the context of that verse. "but ye see me" means that the disciples know Jesus and because they know Jesus the disciples will have eternal life.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.
Notice that Jesus said here that his disciples would see Him no more.

That's true, and they saw Jesus no more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Notice that Jesus said here that He had finished the work that God had given Him to do,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but that He actually had not finished the work at that time. But by taking that verse out of context and absolutely literally you could claim that the rest of the gospels and what Jesus said and did in them is not a part of his work that God gave him to do.

The verse does not say that He actually had not finished the work at that time.
The verse says "I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do."
Nowhere did Jesus EVER say that there would be any more work for Him to do on earth.

Jesus did more than glorify God on earth, but that was the main thing He came to do, bear witness unto the truth about God.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
John 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.
Notice that this verse tells us what Jesus meant by all those verses that you take out of context. He meant that He was going to remain no longer in the world because He was going to go back to heaven and to His Father.

no more in the world means no more in the world.

No more means no further, never again.

You also cannot get around Jesus identification of Himself as the Son of Man (eg Luke 9:22) and that the Father has given all judgement to the Son (John 5) and that He, the Son would resurrect the dead and judge them, whether they should have life or not.
John 5:20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Yes, the Father gave all judgement to the Son, but that only applied to the Dispensation of Jesus. The Father has now given judgement to Baha'u'llah, who came in the station of the Father.

Nowhere in those verses does it say that Jesus is coming back to earth to judge.

25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

That is correct. Those who have forgotten Jesus or who never believed Him will come out of their graves of ignorance of Jesus because Baha'u'llah reminded them of what Jesus said.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Look, here is an expanded picture of what will happen when Jesus, the Son of Man, comes and raises the dead and judges them, whether they should have life or not.
Matt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

You are free to believe whatever you want to about that but this.
Maybe the gospel authors 'believed' that Jesus was the Son of Man who would return, but that does not make it so. Jesus said He was no more in the world.

Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah was the return of the Son of Man.

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man...

www.religiousforums.com

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Only man can overturn mankind's problems, with the assistance of God.

Why does god want us relying on him like a child relies on a parent?
I prefer Captain Kirk's approach, where in his defiance he tells the Olympians we outgrew the need of god like a child outgrows the need of their parent.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

​

I'd suppose this depends on what you view as moral behavior but I thought I'd ask the question to see what people would say.

It is easy to justify one's personal morals but I'd like you to consider the world at large. Is the world becoming more moral or less moral?

And, does this have anything to do with the decline of religious belief?

Yes, Atheism definitely leads to immoral behavior. But in many case, being Religious, also leads to immoral behavior, even to a greater degree.
Consider who plotted against Jesus and killed Him? Were they Atheists or Religious people?
Who performed the 9-11 attack? Who killed many Baha'is in Iran?
They were Religious people who did that. Not the Atheists.

 

[Nakosis]

Yes, Atheism definitely leads to immoral behavior. But in many case, being Religious, also leads to immoral behavior, even to a greater degree.
Consider who plotted against Jesus and killed Him? Were they Atheists or Religious people?
Who performed the 9-11 attack? Who killed many Baha'is in Iran?
They were Religious people who did that. Not the Atheists.

Perhaps just being human leads to immoral behavior.

 

[Brian2]

My point was that it doesn't matter what angels said because angels are not prophets, and they carry no authority.

The term "angel" means "messenger". They are servants of God who carry messages from God and do other things to serve God. Some of them have quite a bit of authority. An example is the angel Gabriel when he gave a message to Zechariah (John the Baptist's father) which Zechariah did not believe.
Luke 1:18 And Zechariah said to the angel, “How shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife is advanced in years.” 19 And the angel answered him, “I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I was sent to speak to you and to bring you this good news. 20 And behold, you will be silent and unable to speak until the day that these things take place, because you did not believe my words, which will be fulfilled in their time.”

Jesus saying “I go away, and come again unto you” was not Jesus saying that the body of Jesus would come again. Jesus was referring to His spirit coming again, and it did come again, in Baha'u'llah.

Jesus rose bodily and appeared bodily to His disciples and ascended to heaven bodily in the sight of His disciples and there is no reason to think that Jesus will not return bodily unless believe Jesus to be a spirit that came to Baha'u'llah and resided in him. (Afterall Jesus did say that He would come again and Baha'u'llah pointed to himself as being that Jesus)
This seems to make Baha'u'llah an antichrist however who says that Jesus is not a man but a spirit which inhabits different people at different times.

 

[Brian2]

No, that is just a Christian belief. As you know, Baha'is believe that the Spirit of truth was Baha'u'llah, who brought the Holy Spirit.
Considering the context of all the verses that mention the Spirit of Truth it is obvious that it is not the Holy Spirit guiding the disciples.
But of course we have already covered this topic many times before.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

You missed this passage which is Jesus telling His disciples that the Spirit of Truth would live with them and be in them. That was not about a man who was born 1800 years later.
John 14:16And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and will be in you.
You also did not include this following passage which shows the Comforter (Spirit of Truth) to be the Holy Spirit who would remind Jesus disciples what Jesus had said to them. That also cannot have been a man born 1800 years after Jesus disciples to whom Jesus had spoken.
John 14:25 “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

The verse does not say that He actually had not finished the work at that time.
The verse says "I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do."
Nowhere did Jesus EVER say that there would be any more work for Him to do on earth.

Of course there was more work for Jesus to do. At the last supper where Jesus was speaking about going and about having finished the work, that was the last time that Jesus had to let His disciples know what was going to happen to Him, to prepare them for it. Jesus spoke of having come to the end of the work God had given Him to do and spoke of His body being given
Luke 22:19And He took the bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body, given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 20In the same way, after supper He took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is poured out for you.…
Luke 9:22“The Son of Man must suffer many things,” He said. “He must be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.”
Mark 10:45For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.”
John 12:27 “Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? But for this purpose I have come to this hour. 28 Father, glorify your name.” Then a voice came from heaven: “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.” 29 The crowd that stood there and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, “An angel has spoken to him.” 30 Jesus answered, “This voice has come for your sake, not mine. 31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw eall people to myself.” 33 He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.

Jesus was sent to earth as the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. John the Baptist, by saying this, witnessed to Jesus death as a sacrificial atonement for sin, as in the Jewish law.
John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
So there was still work that Jesus needed to do, and it was His Father's will that He did it.
Luke 22:42 “Father, if You are willing, take this cup from Me. Yet not My will, but Yours be done.”

Jesus did more than glorify God on earth, but that was the main thing He came to do, bear witness unto the truth about God.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Jesus bore witness to the truth through His death and resurrection. Do you hear His voice or the voice of someone else?

You are free to believe whatever you want to about that but this.
Maybe the gospel authors 'believed' that Jesus was the Son of Man who would return, but that does not make it so. Jesus said He was no more in the world.

Yes, from the time of Jesus till now Christians have believed and taught that Jesus would return in glory to judge the living and the dead and that of His kingdom there would be no end.

Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah was the return of the Son of Man.

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man...

www.religiousforums.com

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
Yes, that is when His work had finished and the world would see Him no more because He was going to His Father in heaven. But His disciples saw Him.

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus rose bodily and appeared bodily to His disciples and ascended to heaven bodily in the sight of His disciples and there is no reason to think that Jesus will not return bodily

You are free to believe that if you want to as I have said many times before, but please do not state it as a fact, because it is not a fact. It is only a belief.

There is one good reason to believe that Jesus will not return bodily. Jesus is in heaven and there are no physical bodies in heaven.

1 Corinthians 15
New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.
42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever.
43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength.
44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

unless believe Jesus to be a spirit that came to Baha'u'llah and resided in him. (Afterall Jesus did say that He would come again and Baha'u'llah pointed to himself as being that Jesus)
This seems to make Baha'u'llah an antichrist however who says that Jesus is not a man but a spirit which inhabits different people at different times.

No, Jesus did not say that He would come again. He said he would never come again...
I won't post those verses again since I have already posted them sooooooo many times!

Baha'u'llah NEVER claimed to be Jesus. All these years of posting to me and you still don't know understand that?

Baha'u'llah claimed to be the return of the Christ Spirit, which is also the return of the Holy Spirit, who came in another human body.

Baha'u'llah NEVER said that Jesus is not a man but a spirit which inhabits different people at different times! I have no idea where you got that idea.

 

[Trailblazer]

You missed this passage which is Jesus telling His disciples that the Spirit of Truth would live with them and be in them. That was not about a man who was born 1800 years later.
John 14:16And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and will be in you.
You also did not include this following passage which shows the Comforter (Spirit of Truth) to be the Holy Spirit who would remind Jesus disciples what Jesus had said to them. That also cannot have been a man born 1800 years after Jesus disciples to whom Jesus had spoken.
John 14:25 “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

We have covered this ground before. Jesus was not ONLY addressing His disciples. That is convenient for your belief but it is not so.
Jesus said a lot of things to His disciples that were intended to be read by people who lived after they died.

The Holy Spirit was sent to the disciples on the Day of Pentecost and then the Holy Spirit was sent again in the last days that we are now living in. In that same chapter in which we find the Pentecost account, we have (Acts 2:17-21) showing that God would once again pour out His Spirit upon all flesh:

Acts 2:17-21 was spoken by the prophet Joel, and it was a prophecy that referred to the last days, the days when Christ would return.

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Acts 2:17-21 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 2:17-21 is a prophecy and it has been fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah.

All these wonders in the heavens and signs on the earth happened before Baha’u’llah appeared, and thus He fulfilled the prophecies for the Return of Christ.

Revelation 6:12-14 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.…

Matthew 24:29-30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mark 13:24-26”But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

“As we look, we find the events recorded (in Revelation), following on in the order predicted.” (Our Day in the Light of Prophecy, Spicer, p. 77.)

These three events would take place successively, each one in turn heralding a closer approach of the footsteps of the Messiah, until, shortly after the last of the three, the star-fall, He would appear.....

These prophecies have already been fulfilled in the exact order predicted.

1. The Lisbon earthquake, 1755.
2. The Dark Day, 1780.
3. The Falling Stars, 1833.

Excerpts from: http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf

Of course there was more work for Jesus to do. At the last supper where Jesus was speaking about going and about having finished the work, that was the last time that Jesus had to let His disciples know what was going to happen to Him, to prepare them for it. Jesus spoke of having come to the end of the work God had given Him to do

That is correct.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Actually, Jesus' work was finished when He dies on the cross,

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Then after that the authors of the NT wrote stories about how Jesus came back to life and appeared to the disciples.
The earliest manuscripts of the gospel of Mark have the ending at Mark 16:8. Verses 9-20 were added afterwards.

Jesus bore witness to the truth through His death and resurrection. Do you hear His voice or the voice of someone else?

Jesus bore witness to the truth through His teachings. His death was offered as a sacrifice for the sins of humanity.
The resurrection was an add-on, since people wanted to believe Jesus rose from the dead.
The bodily resurrection of Jesus would serve no purpose, even if it has happened.

I hear the voice of Jesus and Baha'u'llah.

Yes, from the time of Jesus till now Christians have believed and taught that Jesus would return in glory to judge the living and the dead and that of His kingdom there would be no end.

People can believe whatever they want to believe, but that does not mean it is true.

Christians have believed and taught that Jesus would return in glory to judge the living and the dead and that of His kingdom there would be no end but Imo that belief is false, since I believe it was Baha'ullah who returned in the glory of the Father and ushered in the kingdom of God on earth.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
Yes, that is when His work had finished and the world would see Him no more because He was going to His Father in heaven. But His disciples saw Him.

Only according to the stories did His disciples see Jesus after he died. I don't believe in stories that were obviously fabricated.

 

[Brian2]

You are free to believe that if you want to as I have said many times before, but please do not state it as a fact, because it is not a fact. It is only a belief.

Of course it is a belief. It is a belief that Bible believers have. In the gospels Jesus rose bodily from the grave.

There is one good reason to believe that Jesus will not return bodily. Jesus is in heaven and there are no physical bodies in heaven.

1 Corinthians 15
New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.
42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever.
43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength.
44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

Why do you think that the body that Jesus rose in was not a heavenly body?
Your quote above says "there are natural bodies and spiritual bodies". It does not say that the spiritual bodies are spirits.

No, Jesus did not say that He would come again. He said he would never come again...
I won't post those verses again since I have already posted them sooooooo many times!

That is OK, but I will post the verse which shows that your interpretation of your verses is wrong and which also shows, in very plain words, that Jesus did say that He would come again.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

"I will come again", yep, I have highlighted it so you can verify it for yourself just in case you missed that part on other readings.

Baha'u'llah NEVER claimed to be Jesus. All these years of posting to me and you still don't know understand that?

Baha'u'llah claimed to be the return of the Christ Spirit, which is also the return of the Holy Spirit, who came in another human body.

Baha'u'llah NEVER said that Jesus is not a man but a spirit which inhabits different people at different times! I have no idea where you got that idea.

Baha'u'llah cannot claim to be the Christ or the return of Christ since Jesus is the Christ and if Baha'u'llah is not Jesus then he is nothing but a false Christ.
It is not the Holy Spirit or "Christ Spirit?" which makes someone into the Christ or the return of Christ.

 

[Brian2]

We have covered this ground before. Jesus was not ONLY addressing His disciples. That is convenient for your belief but it is not so.
Jesus said a lot of things to His disciples that were intended to be read by people who lived after they died.

It is only His disciples who heard Him speak and who could be reminded of what He had said to them.
BUT even if Jesus was talking about other people who did not hear Jesus but who would be reminded of what Jesus said to them, that does not mean that Jesus did not include His disciples.
And let's face it, if that is possible, Baha'u'llah did not live in anyone.
So no matter which way you look at it, Baha'u'llah is not the Comforter and/or Spirit of Truth spoken of in John's gospel.

The Holy Spirit was sent to the disciples on the Day of Pentecost and then the Holy Spirit was sent again in the last days that we are now living in. In that same chapter in which we find the Pentecost account, we have (Acts 2:17-21) showing that God would once again pour out His Spirit upon all flesh:

Acts 2:17-21 was spoken by the prophet Joel, and it was a prophecy that referred to the last days, the days when Christ would return.

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Acts 2:17-21 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 2:17-21 is a prophecy and it has been fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah.

You conveniently leave out verses 14 and 15 where Peter explains that he and the disciples were not drunk but that the Holy Spirit had been poured out on them according to the prophecy of Joel. Peter was explaining what was happening on that day and not what might happen 1800 years later. (which btw did not happen when Baha'u'llah came or at any time later amongst the Baha'is afaik)
Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. 15 For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:
17 “ ‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;

All these wonders in the heavens and signs on the earth happened before Baha’u’llah appeared, and thus He fulfilled the prophecies for the Return of Christ.

Revelation 6:12-14 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.…

Matthew 24:29-30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mark 13:24-26”But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

“As we look, we find the events recorded (in Revelation), following on in the order predicted.” (Our Day in the Light of Prophecy, Spicer, p. 77.)

These three events would take place successively, each one in turn heralding a closer approach of the footsteps of the Messiah, until, shortly after the last of the three, the star-fall, He would appear.....

These prophecies have already been fulfilled in the exact order predicted.

1. The Lisbon earthquake, 1755.
2. The Dark Day, 1780.
3. The Falling Stars, 1833.

Excerpts from: http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf

It never ceases to amaze me that you can quote stuff from the Bible which clearly did not happen and say that it all did because you can point to a big earthquake, a meteor shower and an unexplained dark day somewhere in the world.
http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf

That is correct.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Actually, Jesus' work was finished when He dies on the cross,

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Then after that the authors of the NT wrote stories about how Jesus came back to life and appeared to the disciples.
The earliest manuscripts of the gospel of Mark have the ending at Mark 16:8. Verses 9-20 were added afterwards.

Yes I already know that you, like any other non believer, say that the gospel story of the resurrection is made up and did not happen.

Jesus bore witness to the truth through His teachings. His death was offered as a sacrifice for the sins of humanity.
The resurrection was an add-on, since people wanted to believe Jesus rose from the dead.
The bodily resurrection of Jesus would serve no purpose, even if it has happened.

I hear the voice of Jesus and Baha'u'llah.

Luke 9:22“The Son of Man must suffer many things,” He said. “He must be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.”
If you hear the voice of Jesus, why do you not believe it? Maybe it is because you prefer the voice of Baha'u'llah.

Only according to the stories did His disciples see Jesus after he died. I don't believe in stories that were obviously fabricated.

Even raising someone from the dead is possible for God.

 

[McBell]

Does Atheism Lead to Immoral Behavior?

Under what definition of morality, please, right?

Regards

What are the choices?

 

[Trailblazer]

It is only His disciples who heard Him speak and who could be reminded of what He had said to them.
BUT even if Jesus was talking about other people who did not hear Jesus but who would be reminded of what Jesus said to them, that does not mean that Jesus did not include His disciples.

It was the Holy Spirit that was promised to bring all things to their remembrance, whatsoever Jesus had said to them.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

As I have told you before, the Holy Spirit was sent by God to Baha’u’llah just as it was sent by God to Jesus.

Having received the Holy Spirit from God, both Jesus and Baha’u’llah brought the Holy Spirit to humanity. The Comforter and Spirit of truth are just titles for the man who brings the Holy Spirit. Jesus was a Comforter and Baha'u'llah was another Comforter who taught all things and testified of Jesus.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

And let's face it, if that is possible, Baha'u'llah did not live in anyone.
So no matter which way you look at it, Baha'u'llah is not the Comforter and/or Spirit of Truth spoken of in John's gospel.

Baha'u'llah did not literally live inside of anyone and neither does the Holy Spirit.

Question.—What is the Holy Spirit?
Answer.—The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality. Moreover, entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits—that is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 108-109

You conveniently leave out verses 14 and 15 where Peter explains that he and the disciples were not drunk but that the Holy Spirit had been poured out on them according to the prophecy of Joel. Peter was explaining what was happening on that day and not what might happen 1800 years later. (which btw did not happen when Baha'u'llah came or at any time later amongst the Baha'is afaik)
Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. 15 For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:
17 “ ‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;

I never denied that the Holy Spirit was sent on the day of Pentecost.

Acts 2 King James Version (KJV)
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

And then the Holy Spirit was sent again in the last days that we are now living in. In that same chapter in which we find the Pentecost account, we have (Acts 2:17-21) showing that God would once again pour out His Spirit upon all flesh:

It never ceases to amaze me that you can quote stuff from the Bible which clearly did not happen and say that it all did because you can point to a big earthquake, a meteor shower and an unexplained dark day somewhere in the world.
http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf

Everything in the book entitled Thief in the Night did happen, thus fulfilling all the prophecies for the return of Christ.

Yes I already know that you, like any other non believer, say that the gospel story of the resurrection is made up and did not happen.

The authors of the NT wrote stories about how Jesus came back to life and appeared to the disciples.
The earliest manuscripts of the gospel of Mark have the ending at Mark 16:8. Verses 9-20 were added afterwards.
This is a fact, not a belief.

Luke 9:22“The Son of Man must suffer many things,” He said. “He must be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.”
If you hear the voice of Jesus, why do you not believe it? Maybe it is because you prefer the voice of Baha'u'llah.

Luke is not the 'voice of Jesus.' If I had heard the voice of Jesus I would believe it just as I believe the voice of Baha'u'llah.

The traditional view is that the Gospel of Luke and Acts were written by the physician Luke, a companion of Paul. Many scholars believe him to be a Gentile Christian, though some scholars think Luke was a Hellenic Jew. This Luke is mentioned in Paul's Epistle to Philemon (v.
Authorship of Luke–Acts - Wikipedia

Even raising someone from the dead is possible for God.

It is possible but that does not mean it ever happened.
I have no problem with Christians believing that Jesus rose from the dead and I know some Baha'is believe that might have happened.
If that had happened it would have been a miracle, just like the Virgin Birth.

The real danger in believing that Jesus rose from the dead is Christians believing that they will also rise from the dead.

 

[Trailblazer]

Of course it is a belief. It is a belief that Bible believers have. In the gospels Jesus rose bodily from the grave.

It is a belief, not a fact. If it was a fact it could have been proven.

Why do you think that the body that Jesus rose in was not a heavenly body?
Your quote above says "there are natural bodies and spiritual bodies". It does not say that the spiritual bodies are spirits.

I believe that if Jesus rose He rose in a heavenly body, which is a spiritual body, a form of some kind, NOT a spirit.
We will all be raised to live in a spiritual body after we die and go to heaven.
That is in the Bible and also in the Baha'i Writings.

1 Corinthians 15
New Living Translation
40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.
42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever. 43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength. 44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.”
(Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157)

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.”
(Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194)

That is OK, but I will post the verse which shows that your interpretation of your verses is wrong and which also shows, in very plain words, that Jesus did say that He would come again.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

"I will come again", yep, I have highlighted it so you can verify it for yourself just in case you missed that part on other readings.

How many times are we going to discuss this verse?
I will come again is not about the return of Christ in the same body He had when he walked the earth.

Jesus was going to heaven to prepare a place for His disciples.
How could Jesus come back to earth and take His disciples to heaven now? His disciples are no longer on earth.

John 14:2-3 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

When Jesus said “I will come again” He was not referring to coming back to earth again. Jesus said that His work was finished here and He was no more in the world: (John 14:19, John 16:10, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30)

John 14:2-3 is Jesus speaking to His disciples.. When Jesus said “I will come again” He was not talking about His physical body returning to earth, He was referring to His Spirit coming again in the future, which I believe it did, in Baha'u'llah, who was the return of the Christ spirit with a new name (Isaiah 62:2, Revelation 2:17, Revelation 3:12)

Jesus said to the disciples “I will come again, and receive you unto myself” Jesus knew He was going to heaven, and He was telling His disciples that He would prepare a place for them in heaven so they could be with Him in heaven -- that where I am, there ye may be also.

If Jesus returned to earth now, the disciples could not 'receive Jesus' since the disciples are no longer living on earth.

John 14:3 is one of the most misunderstood verses in the New Testament so it is no wonder the Bible commentaries do not agree on what it means.

Baha'u'llah cannot claim to be the Christ or the return of Christ since Jesus is the Christ and if Baha'u'llah is not Jesus then he is nothing but a false Christ.
It is not the Holy Spirit or "Christ Spirit?" which makes someone into the Christ or the return of Christ.

As I always say, you are free to believe whatever you want to believe.

Jesus is the Christ and Baha'u'llah was the return of the Christ spirit in another person.
It is the Holy Spirit and the "Christ Spirit" which makes someone into the Christ or the return of Christ.
It is not the flesh body. That is where the Christians went off track.

Nobody can blame Jesus for the Christians' false beliefs about how the Body of Jesus is what made Him who He was since Jesus made it perfectly clear that the flesh amounts to nothing.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.