Sure, but how do you think this is relevant to my reply to @muhammad_isa ?One death by violence is more than enough.
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Sure, but how do you think this is relevant to my reply to @muhammad_isa ?One death by violence is more than enough.
Oops, sorry, I can't remember the responses. If you can, please reiterate the gist of the matter.Sure, but how do you think this is relevant to my reply to @muhammad_isa ?
Odd how different Gods are only known to their specific tribe members, and no one else. Almost as if there's vivid imaginations being mistaken for reality. Note that facts are evident to anyone, and don't require special assumptions or beliefs. As I said, Gods are not known to exist.
Until they provide exceptional evidence there is no reason to trust what believers claim.
Believers don't seek truth, they seek reasons to believe.
Those are not limited to religions. They are virtues that any decent person will pursue.
They are virtues many believers lack.
How would the Baha'i describe their feelings towards gays? I doubt any of your "spiritual
laws" allows them any of your virtuous words.
Too late to put that toothpaste back in the tube. You have a choice to think for yourself, but you gave up your freedom of though to a religion.
And for what? Most atheists on this forum have superior morals in this regard, as we recognize the rights for gays to have equality and freedom.
Odd why anyone would want to follow a religious dogma when they are capable of free throught and their own journey? Look at what is risked, hoping it's all true, and never knowing for certain.
Too much of anything is bad.And what is wrong with pleasure?
It's the boogeyman of many religions that want to control the masses. And you bought into it. The Enlightenment exposed the nonsense of such archaic prohibitions, and the Baha'i missed out on being a modern religion that has tolerance and wisdom.
And look at what you do with your fellow competing religions. You have a greed for "truth" and you argue with others who claim they have it. So you are so absorbed in your dogma you can't reflect on your hypocrisy. That's the liability of being an empty agent for a religion, and having no freedom of thought.
What is one's suggestion for its cure, please, right?First violent crime is way way down.
The Middle Ages were a dangerous time to live, with some historians suggesting that violent crime was at least 10 times higher than it is today. For example, in 13th century England, there was roughly one murder per 20 villages each year. In the 1340s, Oxford had a homicide rate of 110 per 100,000, which was considered unacceptably high by contemporaries. In comparison, the UK's homicide rate in 2011 was 1 per 100,000.
Being religious certainly doesn't stop it. Covering up crime is also immoral.
About 250,000 cases of child sexual abuse in the church. But just what we know about in modern times.
The global scale of child sexual abuse in the Catholic Church
France
"An independent inquiry on Tuesday said it had concluded there were about 216,000 victims of sexual abuse carried out by the French Catholic Church’s clergy between 1950 and 2020."
Australia
It found that 4,444 alleged incidents of child sexual abuse had been reported to Church authorities. In some dioceses, more than 15 percent of priests were perpetrators.
Germany
It revealed that 314 minors, mostly boys under the age of 14, were sexually abused there between 1975 and 2018.
A German Bishops’ Conference study in 2018 had previously revealed widespread sexual abuse by German clergy.
United States
According to lawyers, more than 11,000 complaints have been lodged in the US by victims of priests. Dioceses have paid out hundreds of millions of dollars in out of court settlements.
Ireland
Accusations of large-scale sex crimes in Ireland’s Catholic institutions go back decades, with the number of underage victims estimated at nearly 15,000 between 1970 and 1990 alone. Several bishops and priests accused of covering up abuse have been punished.
The official Ryan Commission report in 2009 found widespread abuse of children in Catholic-run institutions between the 1930s and the 1970s.
It said church-run orphanages and industrial schools were places of fear, neglect and endemic sexual abuse.
The 2009 Murphy report into the Dublin archdiocese said that between 1975 and 2004 the Church had “obsessively” concealed abuse.
And after another highly critical report in 2011, into the Cloyne diocese, the Vatican recalled its ambassador after the then Irish premier accused it of obstructing investigations into sexual abuse by priests.
If everyone is immoral, then the term has no meaning.It is about how immoral every single person on earth is.
Then there is no reason to give the matter a second thought or to believe that such a thing exists.We would not be able to know if there is a God or not.
I guess you changed your mind about knowing about this god. Suddenly, you know it reveals itself selectively.He may choose to make Himself known, only to some.
That's not an argument. It's just another unfalsifiable claim that neither of us has a reason to believe, but you don't seem to need a reason better than the will to believe on faith. The skeptic does.I would argue those virtues originated from God.
I learned about Bahai homophobia right here on RF from people like you. You all deny that you opinions about homosexuals are bigotry, but you've seen many tell you that those beliefs are bigoted and destructive even if you don't feel hate. Another Baha'i here has a gay son. You cannot make me believe that that doesn't negatively color his opinion of his son or affect the way he interacts with him.As I said, Baha'is treat all human beings equally including gays. I am not sure where you get your ideas from.
Those are foolish people.Alcohol, drugs, fornication, child pornography are also pleasure for some people.
No, those religions teach us to focus on God, not on self. They promote submission and sacrifice for the sake of God.Regarding that last sentence, anti-pleasure Abrahamic religions want you to focus on them, not yourself. They promote submission and sacrifice in service of their agendas, which are to grow in number and influence and to accumulate wealth.
Maybe you misunderstood. I didn't say that the religions promote self-focus. They want your resources for themselves. They like you posting scripture like above. They like you teaching positive things about your religion and theirs.No, those religions teach us to focus on God, not on self.
But the deity doesn't benefit from that. They do. They benefit from your submission and sacrifice. Maybe you do as well, but only psychologically. They benefit materially.They promote submission and sacrifice for the sake of God.
That is what humans decided when they designed their gods. What you say here is not factual about actual gods. No gods are klnown to exist, and there is no knowledge about gods.God by definition is above our level to be known and comprehended.
Then no one can even say they exist outside of their imagination. You can't say anything about a God or gods and be truthful since there isn't any knowledge about them.We would not be able to know if there is a God or not.
This is a false claim since you already said we can't know if there is a God. If you want to be honest admit you guess what a God might be. You can't state any declarative.However, He may choose to make Himself known, only to some.
You are like many believers who are split knowing there are no facts about any God, but want to be special and have exclusive knowledge. Your words here show your neediness and desire, but also that you have no actual knowledge. I've never understood this fantasy, nor wanted the delusional excuses to justify belief.But, because those others, who, He has shown Himself to them, have no way to prove it the rest, others also cannot believe that, just maybe He has chosen only some, to know Him.
We can tell those who seek truth versus those who seek justifications to believe based on their comments. You are a seeker of justification. Look at the confused and contrary wording in your posts as I just pointed out. You admit humans can't know a God exists and then explain that a God can reveal itself. Can't have it both ways.Many Religious people are like that. But, not all of them are like that, but you cannot tell who is who. That's understandable.
A baseless effeort UNTIL you can demonstrate that a God exists, and THEN that any virtues come from it. So you have no argument, just another dead claim that seeks justification for your beliefs. Seekers of truth follow facts, not religious lore.I would argue those virtues originated from God.
Social norms are what dictate values, virtues and morals. Look at how far the socal norms have fallen among conservatives. They tolerate lies, corruption, fraud, cheating, and racism because their conservative neighbors agree that those are OK now. There is no longer any judgment or condemnation that pressures a conservative to have better values as they all have agreed to a cruder form of rules. Does it matter that democrats maintain a higher level of social normas? No, democrats are vilified, thus dismissed. Let's note that most conservatives categorize themselves as Christian.but, beside that, of course most people know the good virtues, yet, they do not practice them as often. Then, immorality increases when the virtues are not manifested.
Which gives atheists and skeptics plenty of examples of why religion is not an effective tool for humans in any society. By definition virtues are concepts that require a nuanced understanding, and the greedy and selfish won't understand what a virtue is. In the end it's on each individual to manage their own moral path. Dogma is a serious distraction for some folks, and it offsets their moral sense.Many Religious people lack those virtues.
That might be in the general sense, that baha'i won't execute them, or imprison them. But you do cause harm because Baha'i have revealed that they accept the condemnation that the dogma proclaims. It's been revealed that the Baha'i organization had the chance to eliminate this pvrejudice but decided not to. That is a not treating gays like others.Bahais treat gay people just like any other human beings.
Because it requires belief in ideas that not only lack evidence, but are implausible. Why would any seeker of truth assume a God exists, and has messengers? What does the dogma offer that a sound thinker can't do for themselves? I say me being an independent, non-religious thinker allows me a superior framework than anything Baha'i have stated. I am free to accept gays. I have no burden to defend a dogma from some organization that doesn't care about me. From what I have seen of the Baha'i is not impressive, and actually left me with a lower opinion of the religion.What is wrong with following Bahai teachings?
No you don't. And it's been you Baha'i explaining and defending your religion that has infomred me of your bias. You as a human being might not have a bias against gays, but you have volunteered to adovt a dogma that is vrejudiced against gays, and that is your flaw. I haven't seen you or any other Baha'i openly condemn the prejudice that your religion promotes. Failure of virtue and courage. When individuals surrender their own moral sense to their dogma then they can do all sorts of bad things, yet be unaware. Look at how easy it was for Lutehrans and Catholics to commit the Holocaust. Only after the war did they feel regrets.As I said, Baha'is treat all human beings equally including gays. I am not sure where you get your ideas from. Probably other Religions?
This is true, as everyone grows up in a culture that teaches norms. Most will adopt most everything without question, including religious belief. One thing that isn't taught is critical thinking skill. That is something individuals do, and when they apply this skill they chave the tools to reject ideas that are questionable. I had a natural inclination to question ideas around me, which was why I was only 8 when I had serious doubts about Christianity. I didn't know why I had doubts, but I could recognize inconsistencies from the ideals to the ctions of those around me. I'm an atheist because I asked questions while my cousins did not. I'm one of 13 grandkids and only two of us are atheists. The rest believe in some form of religion. One is even a priest.Nobody is following their own thoughts. That's including Atheists. They follow the cultural ideas. People are not brought up in a vacuum. They are brought up in a culture specific to the location and time they live in.
False. There is no atheist way of life or beliefs.Atheism is just one of the many beliefs or ways of life.
Sure, there are blondes and brunettes. There are males and females, and perhaps trans, etc. Most are liberal and some are conservative. Do I need to go on?Also, many Atheists are different from many other Atheists.
The best one of what? I'm an atheist by default. It just happens to be the category I fall into since I have yet to see any argument for the truthfulness of any religious claims.It has alot to do with family culture, nationality, etc.
So, why not choosing the best one?
To my mind forcing children into religion is a form of abuse. Telling them that a certain God exists and can do XYZ is a corruption of their intellectual develpment. They learn that untruths are OK, and that means that any sort of fraud, deception, lie, cheating, etc. is OK as long as it is justified.Too much of anything is bad.
And there are different types of pressure.
Alcohol, drugs, fornication, child pornography are also pleasure for some people. But we need to what are the healthy choices of pleasure, and also be moderate.
See what I mean. Above you say "Too much of anything is bad." and now you state this. See how untruths and deception creeps in to your thinking without you knowing it? You can't help it.It is good to be greedy about spiritual things.
You seem to explain a mind that struggles with virtue and morality, and normalcy. A few days ago I arrived at a Costco, and as I got out of my car I saw a runaway shopping cart rolling down the parking lot. I sprinted about 120 feet to grab it before it hit the car it was heading towrds. It was an immediate response that didn't require any thought on my part, I just acted. But I read your posts and you seem confused and limited in your options , and seem to lack any natural inclination. Norms are one guiding element, but they don't force us to behave in any particular manner. I reject conservative norms because they are morally and intellectually inferior to my moral framework. You seem lost between conflicting ideals, and your religion offers you no tools to find a comfortable balance.Like, be the most kind, the most generous, etc. It is never enough to have these virtues. The more the better. But, with worldly and materialistic pleasures, greed is wrong. It becomes harmful.
Who are they and how do they benefit from all the things you mentioned above?Maybe you misunderstood. I didn't say that the religions promote self-focus. They want your resources for themselves. They like you posting scripture like above. They like you teaching positive things about your religion and theirs.
They'd like more from you, but circumstances don't permit it as I understand from your previous posting. They'd like you meeting with them regularly. They'd like you to volunteer on their behalf. And they'd like your regular contributions. I don't know about the Baha'i, but American Christianity also wants your vote to help them establish a theocracy.
But the deity doesn't benefit from that. They do. They benefit from your submission and sacrifice. Maybe you do as well, but only psychologically. They benefit materially.
Yes being an atheist leads to selfish hedonistic behavior.I'd suppose this depends on what you view as moral behavior but I thought I'd ask the question to see what people would say.
It is easy to justify one's personal morals but I'd like you to consider the world at large. Is the world becoming more moral or less moral?
And, does this have anything to do with the decline of religious belief?
It might lead to that or it might not.Yes being an atheist leads to selfish hedonistic behavior.
As I said, the church and its clergy.Who are they and how do they benefit from all the things you mentioned above?
And the heads of the religion like it because it benefits them. I don't expect the faithful to see fault in their institutions.If Baha'is like other Baha'is posting scripture it is only because they like how it benefits the Cause of Baha'u'llah.
Yucch.Yes being an atheist leads to selfish hedonistic behavior.
No, it does not benefit the institutions of the Baha'i religion in any personal way...And the heads of the religion like it because it benefits them. I don't expect the faithful to see fault in their institutions.
I will second the Yucch and the sentence that followed.Yucch.
The best people I know are atheists. Some of the worst people are religious.
Yet any given God depends on the believer (self) to learn about conceptually (because no one actually interacts with any actual God), and then to visualize a relationship. Since the God is imagined how does the self see itself? Inevitably this religious mind set is all about the selfNo, those religions teach us to focus on God, not on self.
Submit to what, exactly? And why sacrifice anything to Gods not known to exist? It's all quite dubious, and any believer with a scrap of doubt will have to work on their denial. No one wnats to be a sucker, and any time a believer is questioned about ehri god's existence they have to manage doubt and inner conflict.They promote submission and sacrifice for the sake of God.
Union with God? What does that mean? How does a mortal do this? What is the will of God and how does a believer know they are merged and aren't just deceiving themselves? I want to see all the Baha'i instructions that anyone can apply and get results. I'm sure @It Aint Necessarily So would be willing to test the instructions along with me and other atheists.“By self-surrender and perpetual union with God is meant that men should merge their will wholly in the Will of God, and regard their desires as utter nothingness beside His Purpose….. The station of absolute self-surrender transcendeth, and will ever remain exalted above, every other station.”
Why aren't you in a close and personal relationship with Jesus?Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
I do not visualize a relationship with God. I believe that having a relationship with God is impossible and that we can only relate to God through His messengers, although I don't believe we can relate personally to the messengers.Yet any given God depends on the believer (self) to learn about conceptually (because no one actually interacts with any actual God), and then to visualize a relationship. Since the God is imagined how does the self see itself? Inevitably this religious mind set is all about the self
Submit to the Will of God. I do not need forensic evidence for God to know that God exists.Submit to what, exactly? And why sacrifice anything to Gods not known to exist?
Having been a Baha'i for almost 54 years, I do not have a scrap of doubt. There is nothing else in this life that I am so sure of.It's all quite dubious, and any believer with a scrap of doubt will have to work on their denial. No one wnats to be a sucker, and any time a believer is questioned about ehri god's existence they have to manage doubt and inner conflict.
Union with God is means that we merge our will with the Will of God, and regard our desires as utter nothingness compared to God's Purpose for us.Union with God? What does that mean? How does a mortal do this?
The Will of God for us in this age was revealed by Baha'u'llah. We cannot know if we are perfectly following God's Will.What is the will of God and how does a believer know they are merged and aren't just deceiving themselves? I want to see all the Baha'i instructions that anyone can apply and get results. I'm sure @It Aint Necessarily So would be willing to test the instructions along with me and other atheists.
I am not in a close personal relationship with Jesus or Baha'u'llah, although I feel close to them in my heart.Why aren't you in a close and personal relationship with Jesus?
You learned a different approach, but you still assume a God exists like any other religion. And the Abrahamic religions claim xzthey di have a direct relatinship with God, so what's the problem with Baha'i?I do not visualize a relationship with God. I believe that having a relationship with God is impossible and that we can only relate to God through His messengers, although I don't believe we can relate personally to the messengers.
Because believers don't use reason and logic when they decide a God exists. And while you claim knowledge, you never can't demonstrate your claim is true.Submit to the Will of God. I do not need forensic evidence for God to know that God exists.
That's quite passive and sounds irresponsible.Submitting to the Will of God means I accept what happens to me, which I believe is God's will...
There is no rational basis to believe this. What is a "sacrifice for the cause of God"? All these little phrases sound good in a religious context, but not in a real world, practical sense.Sacrifice for the Cause of God, which I believe was revealed to humanity through Baha'u'llah. The Cause of God is God's Will for humanity in this age.
I can how difficult it would be for someone who has committed so many years to suddenly start questioning the truth of it all. The habit of belief can itself be the comfort a religious person seeks.Having been a Baha'i for almost 54 years, I do not have a scrap of doubt. There is nothing else in this life that I am so sure of.
This sounds like imagination at work. I never have found this sort of illusion attractive,Union with God is means that we merge our will with the Will of God, and regard our desires as utter nothingness compared to God's Purpose for us.
So you give up some talent or desire because you give your life up to a religious dogma?The way we do this is to sacrifice what we want for ourselves for the Cause of God, as it was revealed by Baha'u'llah.
This is a claim that has no evidence, nor basis in reality. This is typical of religious replies to questions. We critical thinkers ask questions and want truthful answers, and of course believers don't have true answers, they recite their dogma. I often wonder if believers can't understand this, and are just responding without thought. I'd call it disrespectful but I'm not sure believers are even aware of what they are doing.The Will of God for us in this age was revealed by Baha'u'llah. We cannot know if we are perfectly following God's Will.
All we can do is our best to follow His teachings and laws, according to our understanding of them.
How would a person following the instructions NOT be a Baha'i? What makes a Baha'i something that isn't merely a follower? Are you aware that you implied there's something special about being a "Baha'i"?I would not expect anyone who is not a Baha'i to follow Baha'u'llah's instructions and expect results.
Why would any rational mind believe? You have yet to provide any evidence that rational minds find adequate.Why would they, if they don't even believe He is who He claimed to be?
Yeah, but just as you have beliefs about Baha'i submitting to the will of God Christians have their beliefs that are equally implausible and imaginative. You think Baha'i is awesome, but Christians have a direct relationship with God, you have to go through a middleman.I am not in a close personal relationship with Jesus or Baha'u'llah, although I feel close to them in my heart.
I am only in close personal relationships with people I can relate to in person.
I do not assume that a God exists, I believe that God exists.... That can be a comfort but not always.You learned a different approach, but you still assume a God exists like any other religion. And the Abrahamic religions claim xzthey di have a direct relatinship with God, so what's the problem with Baha'i?
I cannot speak for other believers, only for myself. Reason and logic are exactly what I used in order to believe that God exists.Because believers don't use reason and logic when they decide a God exists. And while you claim knowledge, you never can't demonstrate your claim is true.
I can understand how difficult it would be for someone who has committed so many years to non-belief to suddenly start questioning the truth of it all. The habit of non-belief can itself be a comfort, since it has no requirements.I can how difficult it would be for someone who has committed so many years to suddenly start questioning the truth of it all. The habit of belief can itself be the comfort a religious person seeks.
It is not my imagination, it is just what Baha'u'llah wrote that I believe. You can call it an illusion if you want to.This sounds like imagination at work. I never have found this sort of illusion attractive,
I did not give anything up. I did everything that I set out to do, over 15 years of college and three degrees and a profession I like very much.So you give up some talent or desire because you give your life up to a religious dogma?
There is evidence that indicates that Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be, you just don't accept the evidence.This is a claim that has no evidence, nor basis in reality. This is typical of religious replies to questions. We critical thinkers ask questions and want truthful answers, and of course believers don't have true answers, they recite their dogma. I often wonder if believers can't understand this, and are just responding without thought. I'd call it disrespectful but I'm not sure believers are even aware of what they are doing.
One would not be a Baha'i simply because they were following the instructions of Baha'u'llah.How would a person following the instructions NOT be a Baha'i? What makes a Baha'i something that isn't merely a follower? Are you aware that you implied there's something special about being a "Baha'i"?
I have yet to provide any evidence that YOU and others find adequate, so it is not adequate for YOU.Why would any rational mind believe? You have yet to provide any evidence that rational minds find adequate.
Christians BELIEVE that they have a direct relationship with God, and I consider that a false belief, but you are free to believe it if you want to.Yeah, but just as you have beliefs about Baha'i submitting to the will of God Christians have their beliefs that are equally implausible and imaginative. You think Baha'i is awesome, but Christians have a direct relationship with God, you have to go through a middleman.
Of course you do.I do not assume that a God exists,
You have no evidentiary basis to conclude a God exists, this is why it's an assumption.I believe that God exists....
Following facts and evidence is always easier for a mind that seeks truth.That can be a comfort but not always.
I many ways it would be easier to be an atheist.
Not in any way that is obvious. You seem to confuse your thinking with reasoning, and your beliefs as being logical. They aren't.I cannot speak for other believers, only for myself. Reason and logic are exactly what I used in order to believe that God exists.
Yet you wrote this:I do not claim knowledge, I only have a belief.
A sound thinker will have a high stardard that other recognize. If you can't convince others, but you convinced yourself, you have a bad standard.I cannot demonstrate that it is true, people have to demonstrate that to themselves.
More of your games. Non-belief is not a belief.I can understand how difficult it would be for someone who has committed so many years to non-belief to suddenly start questioning the truth of it all. The habit of non-belief can itself be a comfort, since it has no requirements.
What you describe is illusion.It is not my imagination, it is just what Baha'u'llah wrote that I believe. You can call it an illusion if you want to.
Because it is implausible and lacks any factual basis. No rational mind would accept what you call evidence.There is evidence that indicates that Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be, you just don't accept the evidence.
It's not disrespectful to point out the truth. Some theists do get offended that anyone dare question what they claim in an open forum.I'd call it disrespectful when atheists say we believers have no evidence and that we have a belief that is not based in reality, but I'm not sure atheists are not even aware of what they are doing. I often wonder if atheists even try to understand believers or if they are just responding without thought.
No more absurd than belief that Jesus died for the sins of mankind. But just as implausible.One would not be a Baha'i simply because they were following the instructions of Baha'u'llah.
To be a Baha'i one has to believe that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger/Manifestation of God but that does not mean Baha'is are something special.
And I am one of numerous critical thinkers who have a normal and high standard for truth. Religions get a pass in regards to what they claim due to them being cultural norms.I have yet to provide any evidence that YOU and others find adequate, so it is not adequate for YOU.
Because it makes extraordinary claims that lack evidence. It's like any other Abrahamic religion that you reject. You have a pattern of behavior that ignores the critique presented about your claims and beliefs. You offer no adequate answers to the questions raised.Why wouldn't a rational mind believe in the Baha'i Faith? It is the most rational religion that exists, which is why I believe in it.
And they offer the same level of evidence that you do: texts, claims by believers, history, tradition, etc. Not enough factual evidence that any God exists, or that a supernatural is at work in the universe. It is reasonable to reject any religious claim.Christians BELIEVE that they have a direct relationship with God, and I consider that a false belief, but you are free to believe it if you want to.
No one knows that any God exists, and certainly can't show they know any God exists. So it is irrelevant what any given believer claims. The other Abrahamic religions believe they can interact with God. Baha'i, in their very small minority, disagree.Any rational person who knew what God is would understand why it is impossible for anyone to have a direct relationship with God.
That's the Baha'i story line. It's no more factual than those who claim a close, personal relationship with Jesus.Not even the messengers had a direct relationship with God, they only heard His voice through the Holy Spirit.
It's not disrespectful to point out the truth.It's not disrespectful to point out the truth. Some theists do get offended that anyone dare question what they claim in an open forum.