Does Atheism Lead to Immoral Behavior?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

One death by violence is more than enough.

Sure, but how do you think this is relevant to my reply to @muhammad_isa ?

 

[YoursTrue]

Sure, but how do you think this is relevant to my reply to @muhammad_isa ?

Oops, sorry, I can't remember the responses. If you can, please reiterate the gist of the matter.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Odd how different Gods are only known to their specific tribe members, and no one else. Almost as if there's vivid imaginations being mistaken for reality. Note that facts are evident to anyone, and don't require special assumptions or beliefs. As I said, Gods are not known to exist.

God by definition is above our level to be known and comprehended. We would not be able to know if there is a God or not. However, He may choose to make Himself known, only to some. But, because those others, who, He has shown Himself to them, have no way to prove it the rest, others also cannot believe that, just maybe He has chosen only some, to know Him.

Until they provide exceptional evidence there is no reason to trust what believers claim.

Correct

Believers don't seek truth, they seek reasons to believe.

Many Religious people are like that. But, not all of them are like that, but you cannot tell who is who. That's understandable.

Those are not limited to religions. They are virtues that any decent person will pursue.

I would argue those virtues originated from God.
but, beside that, of course most people know the good virtues, yet, they do not practice them as often. Then, immorality increases when the virtues are not manifested.

They are virtues many believers lack.

Many Religious people lack those virtues.

How would the Baha'i describe their feelings towards gays? I doubt any of your "spiritual
laws" allows them any of your virtuous words.

Bahais treat gay people just like any other human beings.

Too late to put that toothpaste back in the tube. You have a choice to think for yourself, but you gave up your freedom of though to a religion.

What is wrong with following Bahai teachings?

And for what? Most atheists on this forum have superior morals in this regard, as we recognize the rights for gays to have equality and freedom.

As I said, Baha'is treat all human beings equally including gays. I am not sure where you get your ideas from. Probably other Religions?

Odd why anyone would want to follow a religious dogma when they are capable of free throught and their own journey? Look at what is risked, hoping it's all true, and never knowing for certain.

Nobody is following their own thoughts. That's including Atheists. They follow the cultural ideas. People are not brought up in a vacuum. They are brought up in a culture specific to the location and time they live in. Atheism is just one of the many beliefs or ways of life. Also, many Atheists are different from many other Atheists. It has alot to do with family culture, nationality, etc.
So, why not choosing the best one?

And what is wrong with pleasure?

Too much of anything is bad.
And there are different types of pressure.
Alcohol, drugs, fornication, child pornography are also pleasure for some people. But we need to what are the healthy choices of pleasure, and also be moderate.

It's the boogeyman of many religions that want to control the masses. And you bought into it. The Enlightenment exposed the nonsense of such archaic prohibitions, and the Baha'i missed out on being a modern religion that has tolerance and wisdom.

And look at what you do with your fellow competing religions. You have a greed for "truth" and you argue with others who claim they have it. So you are so absorbed in your dogma you can't reflect on your hypocrisy. That's the liability of being an empty agent for a religion, and having no freedom of thought.

It is good to be greedy about spiritual things. Like, be the most kind, the most generous, etc. It is never enough to have these virtues. The more the better. But, with worldly and materialistic pleasures, greed is wrong. It becomes harmful.

 

[paarsurrey]

First violent crime is way way down.
The Middle Ages were a dangerous time to live, with some historians suggesting that violent crime was at least 10 times higher than it is today. For example, in 13th century England, there was roughly one murder per 20 villages each year. In the 1340s, Oxford had a homicide rate of 110 per 100,000, which was considered unacceptably high by contemporaries. In comparison, the UK's homicide rate in 2011 was 1 per 100,000.


Being religious certainly doesn't stop it. Covering up crime is also immoral.



About 250,000 cases of child sexual abuse in the church. But just what we know about in modern times.


The global scale of child sexual abuse in the Catholic Church


France


"An independent inquiry on Tuesday said it had concluded there were about 216,000 victims of sexual abuse carried out by the French Catholic Church’s clergy between 1950 and 2020."


Australia


It found that 4,444 alleged incidents of child sexual abuse had been reported to Church authorities. In some dioceses, more than 15 percent of priests were perpetrators.


Germany


It revealed that 314 minors, mostly boys under the age of 14, were sexually abused there between 1975 and 2018.

A German Bishops’ Conference study in 2018 had previously revealed widespread sexual abuse by German clergy.


United States


According to lawyers, more than 11,000 complaints have been lodged in the US by victims of priests. Dioceses have paid out hundreds of millions of dollars in out of court settlements.


Ireland


Accusations of large-scale sex crimes in Ireland’s Catholic institutions go back decades, with the number of underage victims estimated at nearly 15,000 between 1970 and 1990 alone. Several bishops and priests accused of covering up abuse have been punished.


The official Ryan Commission report in 2009 found widespread abuse of children in Catholic-run institutions between the 1930s and the 1970s.

It said church-run orphanages and industrial schools were places of fear, neglect and endemic sexual abuse.

The 2009 Murphy report into the Dublin archdiocese said that between 1975 and 2004 the Church had “obsessively” concealed abuse.

And after another highly critical report in 2011, into the Cloyne diocese, the Vatican recalled its ambassador after the then Irish premier accused it of obstructing investigations into sexual abuse by priests.

What is one's suggestion for its cure, please, right?
Does one has the statistics for the Atheism(et al) for the corresponding period, right, please?

Regards

 

[Tinker Grey]

It is about how immoral every single person on earth is.

If everyone is immoral, then the term has no meaning.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

We would not be able to know if there is a God or not.

Then there is no reason to give the matter a second thought or to believe that such a thing exists.

He may choose to make Himself known, only to some.

I guess you changed your mind about knowing about this god. Suddenly, you know it reveals itself selectively.

If you're correct, then for the rest of us, there's no reason to worship such a deity. You've described a god not only not worth thinking about and then one unworthy of respect.

I would argue those virtues originated from God.

That's not an argument. It's just another unfalsifiable claim that neither of us has a reason to believe, but you don't seem to need a reason better than the will to believe on faith. The skeptic does.

As best we can tell, the conscience is a gift of evolution. Why do I say that? Because we are here as are our consciences, but not any gods, and we know that evolution occurs in human beings as well as the rest of the tree of life.

As I said, Baha'is treat all human beings equally including gays. I am not sure where you get your ideas from.

I learned about Bahai homophobia right here on RF from people like you. You all deny that you opinions about homosexuals are bigotry, but you've seen many tell you that those beliefs are bigoted and destructive even if you don't feel hate. Another Baha'i here has a gay son. You cannot make me believe that that doesn't negatively color his opinion of his son or affect the way he interacts with him.

Alcohol, drugs, fornication, child pornography are also pleasure for some people.

Those are foolish people.

Here's a post I left on another thread recently.

Joy, pleasure, happiness, contentment, and satisfaction are things to pursue, not avoid. They are not found with selfish or impetuous hedonism.

Wisdom is the knowledge that brings one to such a place, whereas intelligence is knowledge of how to achieve immediate goals such as accumulating wealth.

Long term satisfaction includes love - both giving it and receiving it. Love is expressed by promoting the welfare of others, which is the opposite of selfish, but rewards the one being of service or being kind or charitable.

Live an upright life, be fair, be a friend, be kind, be a good citizen and neighbor, be an asset to your community, seek beauty and serenity, have humble tastes, and you'll probably be happy.

And anybody that tries to disparage you for seeking such a life instead of one of abstinence, austerity, strict rules for you follow, service to his cause, or suffering is not your friend.
​

Regarding that last sentence, anti-pleasure Abrahamic religions want you to focus on them, not yourself. They promote submission and sacrifice in service of their agendas, which are to grow in number and influence and to accumulate wealth.

 

[Trailblazer]

Regarding that last sentence, anti-pleasure Abrahamic religions want you to focus on them, not yourself. They promote submission and sacrifice in service of their agendas, which are to grow in number and influence and to accumulate wealth.

No, those religions teach us to focus on God, not on self. They promote submission and sacrifice for the sake of God.

“By self-surrender and perpetual union with God is meant that men should merge their will wholly in the Will of God, and regard their desires as utter nothingness beside His Purpose….. The station of absolute self-surrender transcendeth, and will ever remain exalted above, every other station.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 336-338

reference.bahai.org

Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

No, those religions teach us to focus on God, not on self.

Maybe you misunderstood. I didn't say that the religions promote self-focus. They want your resources for themselves. They like you posting scripture like above. They like you teaching positive things about your religion and theirs.

They'd like more from you, but circumstances don't permit it as I understand from your previous posting. They'd like you meeting with them regularly. They'd like you to volunteer on their behalf. And they'd like your regular contributions. I don't know about the Baha'i, but American Christianity also wants your vote to help them establish a theocracy.

They promote submission and sacrifice for the sake of God.

But the deity doesn't benefit from that. They do. They benefit from your submission and sacrifice. Maybe you do as well, but only psychologically. They benefit materially.

 

[F1fan]

God by definition is above our level to be known and comprehended.

That is what humans decided when they designed their gods. What you say here is not factual about actual gods. No gods are klnown to exist, and there is no knowledge about gods.

We would not be able to know if there is a God or not.

Then no one can even say they exist outside of their imagination. You can't say anything about a God or gods and be truthful since there isn't any knowledge about them.

However, He may choose to make Himself known, only to some.

This is a false claim since you already said we can't know if there is a God. If you want to be honest admit you guess what a God might be. You can't state any declarative.

But, because those others, who, He has shown Himself to them, have no way to prove it the rest, others also cannot believe that, just maybe He has chosen only some, to know Him.

You are like many believers who are split knowing there are no facts about any God, but want to be special and have exclusive knowledge. Your words here show your neediness and desire, but also that you have no actual knowledge. I've never understood this fantasy, nor wanted the delusional excuses to justify belief.

Many Religious people are like that. But, not all of them are like that, but you cannot tell who is who. That's understandable.

We can tell those who seek truth versus those who seek justifications to believe based on their comments. You are a seeker of justification. Look at the confused and contrary wording in your posts as I just pointed out. You admit humans can't know a God exists and then explain that a God can reveal itself. Can't have it both ways.

I would argue those virtues originated from God.

A baseless effeort UNTIL you can demonstrate that a God exists, and THEN that any virtues come from it. So you have no argument, just another dead claim that seeks justification for your beliefs. Seekers of truth follow facts, not religious lore.

but, beside that, of course most people know the good virtues, yet, they do not practice them as often. Then, immorality increases when the virtues are not manifested.

Social norms are what dictate values, virtues and morals. Look at how far the socal norms have fallen among conservatives. They tolerate lies, corruption, fraud, cheating, and racism because their conservative neighbors agree that those are OK now. There is no longer any judgment or condemnation that pressures a conservative to have better values as they all have agreed to a cruder form of rules. Does it matter that democrats maintain a higher level of social normas? No, democrats are vilified, thus dismissed. Let's note that most conservatives categorize themselves as Christian.

Look at your own bigotry against gays. You claim to be accepting but you have a history of making comments that Baha'i has taught you that are discriminatory against gays. That is your choice to align with a bigoted religion, you don't get to hide behind what the dogma says.

Many Religious people lack those virtues.

Which gives atheists and skeptics plenty of examples of why religion is not an effective tool for humans in any society. By definition virtues are concepts that require a nuanced understanding, and the greedy and selfish won't understand what a virtue is. In the end it's on each individual to manage their own moral path. Dogma is a serious distraction for some folks, and it offsets their moral sense.

Bahais treat gay people just like any other human beings.

That might be in the general sense, that baha'i won't execute them, or imprison them. But you do cause harm because Baha'i have revealed that they accept the condemnation that the dogma proclaims. It's been revealed that the Baha'i organization had the chance to eliminate this pvrejudice but decided not to. That is a not treating gays like others.

What is wrong with following Bahai teachings?

Because it requires belief in ideas that not only lack evidence, but are implausible. Why would any seeker of truth assume a God exists, and has messengers? What does the dogma offer that a sound thinker can't do for themselves? I say me being an independent, non-religious thinker allows me a superior framework than anything Baha'i have stated. I am free to accept gays. I have no burden to defend a dogma from some organization that doesn't care about me. From what I have seen of the Baha'i is not impressive, and actually left me with a lower opinion of the religion.

As I said, Baha'is treat all human beings equally including gays. I am not sure where you get your ideas from. Probably other Religions?

No you don't. And it's been you Baha'i explaining and defending your religion that has infomred me of your bias. You as a human being might not have a bias against gays, but you have volunteered to adovt a dogma that is vrejudiced against gays, and that is your flaw. I haven't seen you or any other Baha'i openly condemn the prejudice that your religion promotes. Failure of virtue and courage. When individuals surrender their own moral sense to their dogma then they can do all sorts of bad things, yet be unaware. Look at how easy it was for Lutehrans and Catholics to commit the Holocaust. Only after the war did they feel regrets.

Nobody is following their own thoughts. That's including Atheists. They follow the cultural ideas. People are not brought up in a vacuum. They are brought up in a culture specific to the location and time they live in.

This is true, as everyone grows up in a culture that teaches norms. Most will adopt most everything without question, including religious belief. One thing that isn't taught is critical thinking skill. That is something individuals do, and when they apply this skill they chave the tools to reject ideas that are questionable. I had a natural inclination to question ideas around me, which was why I was only 8 when I had serious doubts about Christianity. I didn't know why I had doubts, but I could recognize inconsistencies from the ideals to the ctions of those around me. I'm an atheist because I asked questions while my cousins did not. I'm one of 13 grandkids and only two of us are atheists. The rest believe in some form of religion. One is even a priest.

Atheism is just one of the many beliefs or ways of life.

False. There is no atheist way of life or beliefs.

Also, many Atheists are different from many other Atheists.

Sure, there are blondes and brunettes. There are males and females, and perhaps trans, etc. Most are liberal and some are conservative. Do I need to go on?

It has alot to do with family culture, nationality, etc.
So, why not choosing the best one?

The best one of what? I'm an atheist by default. It just happens to be the category I fall into since I have yet to see any argument for the truthfulness of any religious claims.

Too much of anything is bad.
And there are different types of pressure.
Alcohol, drugs, fornication, child pornography are also pleasure for some people. But we need to what are the healthy choices of pleasure, and also be moderate.

To my mind forcing children into religion is a form of abuse. Telling them that a certain God exists and can do XYZ is a corruption of their intellectual develpment. They learn that untruths are OK, and that means that any sort of fraud, deception, lie, cheating, etc. is OK as long as it is justified.

It is good to be greedy about spiritual things.

See what I mean. Above you say "Too much of anything is bad." and now you state this. See how untruths and deception creeps in to your thinking without you knowing it? You can't help it.

Like, be the most kind, the most generous, etc. It is never enough to have these virtues. The more the better. But, with worldly and materialistic pleasures, greed is wrong. It becomes harmful.

You seem to explain a mind that struggles with virtue and morality, and normalcy. A few days ago I arrived at a Costco, and as I got out of my car I saw a runaway shopping cart rolling down the parking lot. I sprinted about 120 feet to grab it before it hit the car it was heading towrds. It was an immediate response that didn't require any thought on my part, I just acted. But I read your posts and you seem confused and limited in your options , and seem to lack any natural inclination. Norms are one guiding element, but they don't force us to behave in any particular manner. I reject conservative norms because they are morally and intellectually inferior to my moral framework. You seem lost between conflicting ideals, and your religion offers you no tools to find a comfortable balance.

 

[Trailblazer]

Maybe you misunderstood. I didn't say that the religions promote self-focus. They want your resources for themselves. They like you posting scripture like above. They like you teaching positive things about your religion and theirs.

They'd like more from you, but circumstances don't permit it as I understand from your previous posting. They'd like you meeting with them regularly. They'd like you to volunteer on their behalf. And they'd like your regular contributions. I don't know about the Baha'i, but American Christianity also wants your vote to help them establish a theocracy.

But the deity doesn't benefit from that. They do. They benefit from your submission and sacrifice. Maybe you do as well, but only psychologically. They benefit materially.

Who are they and how do they benefit from all the things you mentioned above?
That might apply to some leaders within the Christian faith but it does not apply to anyone in the Baha'i Faith.

If Baha'is like other Baha'is posting scripture it is only because they like how it benefits the Cause of Baha'u'llah.
If Baha'is like other Baha'is showing up at meetings it is only because they like how it benefits the Cause of Baha'u'llah.
It is not them that they care about. It is the Cause of Baha'u'llah.

 

[Massimo2002]

​

I'd suppose this depends on what you view as moral behavior but I thought I'd ask the question to see what people would say.

It is easy to justify one's personal morals but I'd like you to consider the world at large. Is the world becoming more moral or less moral?

And, does this have anything to do with the decline of religious belief?

Yes being an atheist leads to selfish hedonistic behavior.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes being an atheist leads to selfish hedonistic behavior.

It might lead to that or it might not.
Moreover, many believers are selfish and hedonistic, so belief in God does not protect people from selfishness and hedonism.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Who are they and how do they benefit from all the things you mentioned above?

As I said, the church and its clergy.

If Baha'is like other Baha'is posting scripture it is only because they like how it benefits the Cause of Baha'u'llah.

And the heads of the religion like it because it benefits them. I don't expect the faithful to see fault in their institutions.

Yes being an atheist leads to selfish hedonistic behavior.

Yucch.

The best people I know are atheists. Some of the worst people are religious.

Look at America and the kind of Christians it has to contend with today. Assuming that it's not sarcasm, look at how bigoted and unfriendly your comment is. If you actually believe that, I know where you learned it.

Let me share some of that bigotry and hatred from the Christian scriptures:

[1] "The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.' They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good" - Psalm 14:1

[2] "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone." - Revelation 21:8

[3]"Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?"- 2 Corinthians 6:14

[4] Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ." - 1 John 2:22

[5] "Whoever is not with me is against me" - Luke 11:23

[6] "They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity." - Ephesians 4:18-24
​

I find that grossly immoral. Altogether, they depict unbelievers as corrupt, vile, wicked, abominable, godless vessels of darkness in the service of evil, not one of which does any good, all greedy, to practitioners every kind of impurity, to be shunned, fit to be burned alive forever as enemies of a good god, and the moral equivalent of murderers and whoremongers.

Is that where you learned to defame atheists - in a church? Whatever your answer, is it any surprise why so many have no respect for such a religion and actively denounce it? I'm one of them, and whenever I read the kind of mean-spirited bigotry you posted, it renews my resolve to point out what it actually is and teaches.

As I implied, I'll take a humanist over somebody who thinks like you do. They are much more just, kind, and loving.

The Christian church has very little effect on me any more (we left America), but it does affect us a little. Today is the feast day of Saint Alberto Hurtao Cruchaga, and the local parish church is firing off bottle rockets, which have my dogs terrified (the little white one is trembling) and forced me to close the doors cutting them off from their dog door and the yard. You can only imagine the obscenities going through my head. What terrible neighbors. How selfish is that?

 

[Trailblazer]

And the heads of the religion like it because it benefits them. I don't expect the faithful to see fault in their institutions.

No, it does not benefit the institutions of the Baha'i religion in any personal way...
Sometimes I do find fault with the institutions.

Yucch.

The best people I know are atheists. Some of the worst people are religious.

I will second the Yucch and the sentence that followed.
Some of the best people I know are atheists and some of the worst people are religious.

Moreover, none of the good deeds done by atheists are for a reward whereas the good deeds of believers are usually done with the reward in mind.

 

[F1fan]

No, those religions teach us to focus on God, not on self.

Yet any given God depends on the believer (self) to learn about conceptually (because no one actually interacts with any actual God), and then to visualize a relationship. Since the God is imagined how does the self see itself? Inevitably this religious mind set is all about the self

They promote submission and sacrifice for the sake of God.

Submit to what, exactly? And why sacrifice anything to Gods not known to exist? It's all quite dubious, and any believer with a scrap of doubt will have to work on their denial. No one wnats to be a sucker, and any time a believer is questioned about ehri god's existence they have to manage doubt and inner conflict.

“By self-surrender and perpetual union with God is meant that men should merge their will wholly in the Will of God, and regard their desires as utter nothingness beside His Purpose….. The station of absolute self-surrender transcendeth, and will ever remain exalted above, every other station.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 336-338

reference.bahai.org

Union with God? What does that mean? How does a mortal do this? What is the will of God and how does a believer know they are merged and aren't just deceiving themselves? I want to see all the Baha'i instructions that anyone can apply and get results. I'm sure @It Aint Necessarily So would be willing to test the instructions along with me and other atheists.

Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Why aren't you in a close and personal relationship with Jesus?

 

[Trailblazer]

Yet any given God depends on the believer (self) to learn about conceptually (because no one actually interacts with any actual God), and then to visualize a relationship. Since the God is imagined how does the self see itself? Inevitably this religious mind set is all about the self

I do not visualize a relationship with God. I believe that having a relationship with God is impossible and that we can only relate to God through His messengers, although I don't believe we can relate personally to the messengers.

Submit to what, exactly? And why sacrifice anything to Gods not known to exist?

Submit to the Will of God. I do not need forensic evidence for God to know that God exists.
Submitting to the Will of God means I accept what happens to me, which I believe is God's will...

Sacrifice for the Cause of God, which I believe was revealed to humanity through Baha'u'llah. The Cause of God is God's Will for humanity in this age.

It's all quite dubious, and any believer with a scrap of doubt will have to work on their denial. No one wnats to be a sucker, and any time a believer is questioned about ehri god's existence they have to manage doubt and inner conflict.

Having been a Baha'i for almost 54 years, I do not have a scrap of doubt. There is nothing else in this life that I am so sure of.

Union with God? What does that mean? How does a mortal do this?

Union with God is means that we merge our will with the Will of God, and regard our desires as utter nothingness compared to God's Purpose for us.
The way we do this is to sacrifice what we want for ourselves for the Cause of God, as it was revealed by Baha'u'llah.

What is the will of God and how does a believer know they are merged and aren't just deceiving themselves? I want to see all the Baha'i instructions that anyone can apply and get results. I'm sure @It Aint Necessarily So would be willing to test the instructions along with me and other atheists.

The Will of God for us in this age was revealed by Baha'u'llah. We cannot know if we are perfectly following God's Will.
All we can do is our best to follow His teachings and laws, according to our understanding of them.

I would not expect anyone who is not a Baha'i to follow Baha'u'llah's instructions and expect results.
Why would they, if they don't even believe He is who He claimed to be?

Why aren't you in a close and personal relationship with Jesus?

I am not in a close personal relationship with Jesus or Baha'u'llah, although I feel close to them in my heart.
I am only in close personal relationships with people I can relate to in person.

 

[F1fan]

I do not visualize a relationship with God. I believe that having a relationship with God is impossible and that we can only relate to God through His messengers, although I don't believe we can relate personally to the messengers.

You learned a different approach, but you still assume a God exists like any other religion. And the Abrahamic religions claim xzthey di have a direct relatinship with God, so what's the problem with Baha'i?

Submit to the Will of God. I do not need forensic evidence for God to know that God exists.

Because believers don't use reason and logic when they decide a God exists. And while you claim knowledge, you never can't demonstrate your claim is true.

Submitting to the Will of God means I accept what happens to me, which I believe is God's will...

That's quite passive and sounds irresponsible.

Sacrifice for the Cause of God, which I believe was revealed to humanity through Baha'u'llah. The Cause of God is God's Will for humanity in this age.

There is no rational basis to believe this. What is a "sacrifice for the cause of God"? All these little phrases sound good in a religious context, but not in a real world, practical sense.

Having been a Baha'i for almost 54 years, I do not have a scrap of doubt. There is nothing else in this life that I am so sure of.

I can how difficult it would be for someone who has committed so many years to suddenly start questioning the truth of it all. The habit of belief can itself be the comfort a religious person seeks.

Union with God is means that we merge our will with the Will of God, and regard our desires as utter nothingness compared to God's Purpose for us.

This sounds like imagination at work. I never have found this sort of illusion attractive,

The way we do this is to sacrifice what we want for ourselves for the Cause of God, as it was revealed by Baha'u'llah.

So you give up some talent or desire because you give your life up to a religious dogma?

The Will of God for us in this age was revealed by Baha'u'llah. We cannot know if we are perfectly following God's Will.
All we can do is our best to follow His teachings and laws, according to our understanding of them.

This is a claim that has no evidence, nor basis in reality. This is typical of religious replies to questions. We critical thinkers ask questions and want truthful answers, and of course believers don't have true answers, they recite their dogma. I often wonder if believers can't understand this, and are just responding without thought. I'd call it disrespectful but I'm not sure believers are even aware of what they are doing.

I would not expect anyone who is not a Baha'i to follow Baha'u'llah's instructions and expect results.

How would a person following the instructions NOT be a Baha'i? What makes a Baha'i something that isn't merely a follower? Are you aware that you implied there's something special about being a "Baha'i"?

Why would they, if they don't even believe He is who He claimed to be?

Why would any rational mind believe? You have yet to provide any evidence that rational minds find adequate.

I am not in a close personal relationship with Jesus or Baha'u'llah, although I feel close to them in my heart.
I am only in close personal relationships with people I can relate to in person.

Yeah, but just as you have beliefs about Baha'i submitting to the will of God Christians have their beliefs that are equally implausible and imaginative. You think Baha'i is awesome, but Christians have a direct relationship with God, you have to go through a middleman.

 

[Trailblazer]

You learned a different approach, but you still assume a God exists like any other religion. And the Abrahamic religions claim xzthey di have a direct relatinship with God, so what's the problem with Baha'i?

I do not assume that a God exists, I believe that God exists.... That can be a comfort but not always.
I many ways it would be easier to be an atheist.

Because believers don't use reason and logic when they decide a God exists. And while you claim knowledge, you never can't demonstrate your claim is true.

I cannot speak for other believers, only for myself. Reason and logic are exactly what I used in order to believe that God exists.
I do not claim knowledge, I only have a belief. I cannot demonstrate that it is true, people have to demonstrate that to themselves.

I can how difficult it would be for someone who has committed so many years to suddenly start questioning the truth of it all. The habit of belief can itself be the comfort a religious person seeks.

I can understand how difficult it would be for someone who has committed so many years to non-belief to suddenly start questioning the truth of it all. The habit of non-belief can itself be a comfort, since it has no requirements.

This sounds like imagination at work. I never have found this sort of illusion attractive,

It is not my imagination, it is just what Baha'u'llah wrote that I believe. You can call it an illusion if you want to.

So you give up some talent or desire because you give your life up to a religious dogma?

I did not give anything up. I did everything that I set out to do, over 15 years of college and three degrees and a profession I like very much.
I did not give up sexual desires because I had plenty of sex when I was married, but I no longer have any desire for it, so not having it is not really a sacrifice.

What I have sacrificed for the Cause of God is a lot of my free time.

This is a claim that has no evidence, nor basis in reality. This is typical of religious replies to questions. We critical thinkers ask questions and want truthful answers, and of course believers don't have true answers, they recite their dogma. I often wonder if believers can't understand this, and are just responding without thought. I'd call it disrespectful but I'm not sure believers are even aware of what they are doing.

There is evidence that indicates that Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be, you just don't accept the evidence.
I'd call it disrespectful when atheists say we believers have no evidence and that we have a belief that is not based in reality, but I'm not sure atheists are not even aware of what they are doing. I often wonder if atheists even try to understand believers or if they are just responding without thought.

How would a person following the instructions NOT be a Baha'i? What makes a Baha'i something that isn't merely a follower? Are you aware that you implied there's something special about being a "Baha'i"?

One would not be a Baha'i simply because they were following the instructions of Baha'u'llah.
To be a Baha'i one has to believe that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger/Manifestation of God but that does not mean Baha'is are something special.

Why would any rational mind believe? You have yet to provide any evidence that rational minds find adequate.

I have yet to provide any evidence that YOU and others find adequate, so it is not adequate for YOU.
Why wouldn't a rational mind believe in the Baha'i Faith? It is the most rational religion that exists, which is why I believe in it.

Yeah, but just as you have beliefs about Baha'i submitting to the will of God Christians have their beliefs that are equally implausible and imaginative. You think Baha'i is awesome, but Christians have a direct relationship with God, you have to go through a middleman.

Christians BELIEVE that they have a direct relationship with God, and I consider that a false belief, but you are free to believe it if you want to.
Any rational person who knew what God is would understand why it is impossible for anyone to have a direct relationship with God.
Not even the messengers had a direct relationship with God, they only heard His voice through the Holy Spirit.

 

[F1fan]

I do not assume that a God exists,

Of course you do.

I believe that God exists....

You have no evidentiary basis to conclude a God exists, this is why it's an assumption.

That can be a comfort but not always.
I many ways it would be easier to be an atheist.

Following facts and evidence is always easier for a mind that seeks truth.

I cannot speak for other believers, only for myself. Reason and logic are exactly what I used in order to believe that God exists.

Not in any way that is obvious. You seem to confuse your thinking with reasoning, and your beliefs as being logical. They aren't.

I do not claim knowledge, I only have a belief.

Yet you wrote this:

I do not need forensic evidence for God to know that God exists.​

I cannot demonstrate that it is true, people have to demonstrate that to themselves.

A sound thinker will have a high stardard that other recognize. If you can't convince others, but you convinced yourself, you have a bad standard.

I can understand how difficult it would be for someone who has committed so many years to non-belief to suddenly start questioning the truth of it all. The habit of non-belief can itself be a comfort, since it has no requirements.

More of your games. Non-belief is not a belief.

It is not my imagination, it is just what Baha'u'llah wrote that I believe. You can call it an illusion if you want to.

What you describe is illusion.

There is evidence that indicates that Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be, you just don't accept the evidence.

Because it is implausible and lacks any factual basis. No rational mind would accept what you call evidence.

I'd call it disrespectful when atheists say we believers have no evidence and that we have a belief that is not based in reality, but I'm not sure atheists are not even aware of what they are doing. I often wonder if atheists even try to understand believers or if they are just responding without thought.

It's not disrespectful to point out the truth. Some theists do get offended that anyone dare question what they claim in an open forum.

Let's note how your refusal to accept Christian concepts could be considered disrespectful, bevause you chose some other religious dogma as truth. Why would you reject other religions? Must be a lack of evidence.

One would not be a Baha'i simply because they were following the instructions of Baha'u'llah.
To be a Baha'i one has to believe that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger/Manifestation of God but that does not mean Baha'is are something special.

No more absurd than belief that Jesus died for the sins of mankind. But just as implausible.

I have yet to provide any evidence that YOU and others find adequate, so it is not adequate for YOU.

And I am one of numerous critical thinkers who have a normal and high standard for truth. Religions get a pass in regards to what they claim due to them being cultural norms.

Why wouldn't a rational mind believe in the Baha'i Faith? It is the most rational religion that exists, which is why I believe in it.

Because it makes extraordinary claims that lack evidence. It's like any other Abrahamic religion that you reject. You have a pattern of behavior that ignores the critique presented about your claims and beliefs. You offer no adequate answers to the questions raised.

Christians BELIEVE that they have a direct relationship with God, and I consider that a false belief, but you are free to believe it if you want to.

And they offer the same level of evidence that you do: texts, claims by believers, history, tradition, etc. Not enough factual evidence that any God exists, or that a supernatural is at work in the universe. It is reasonable to reject any religious claim.

Any rational person who knew what God is would understand why it is impossible for anyone to have a direct relationship with God.

No one knows that any God exists, and certainly can't show they know any God exists. So it is irrelevant what any given believer claims. The other Abrahamic religions believe they can interact with God. Baha'i, in their very small minority, disagree.

Not even the messengers had a direct relationship with God, they only heard His voice through the Holy Spirit.

That's the Baha'i story line. It's no more factual than those who claim a close, personal relationship with Jesus.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's not disrespectful to point out the truth. Some theists do get offended that anyone dare question what they claim in an open forum.

It's not disrespectful to point out the truth.
Some atheists are annoyed and critical of believers because they cannot see what is so obvious to the believers, but it is not our problem that they cannot see what is so well evidenced.