Does Atheism Lead to Immoral Behavior?

[Trailblazer]

No, it isn't. Best explanations are based on logical analysis, not personal opinion. They are objective. There is an objective way to evaluate the likelihoods of competing claims. We have a whole field dedicated to doing this called probability theory.

I believe it is subjective, but if you think there is an objective way to evaluate the likelihoods of competing claims go ahead and try to explain how that is done.

If God is not subject to logic, then that makes God's existence impossible and therefore necessarily false, which counts as a logical proof that he does not exist. God might not be subject to logic, but proofs are.

God is not subject to logic and the logical reason is because God is and has always been immensely exalted beyond all that can ever be recounted or perceived, everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men. Such an entity can never be subject to human logic because one cannot encapsulate an infinite God with the finite human mind.

Some Baha'is have proposed logical proofs of God or proofs of God but I disagree that God can be proven to exist. There is plenty of evidence but there is no verifiable evidence, which would constitute proof.

Baha'i logical proofs of God - Google Search

If you aren't making a claim, then there's nothing to debate. We both agree that the claim that these scriptures have a divine source does not meet the burden of proof, and I'm alright ending the discussion on that agreement. The topic was only brought up because other users were implying that I should recognize that it's true that certain scriptures have a divine source, and that this is clear evidence of the existence of God, both which are claims that need to meet the burden of proof.

No, there is nothing to debate since neither side can win, since it can never be proven that the scriptures come from a divine source, nor can it be proven that they do not. All we can do is discuss the possibilities.

 

[muhammad_isa]

So you heard about these ideas at a very impressionable age..

The word "God" never entered my mind at that stage..
..just a feeling of "deja-vous" and/or "it all means something".

Religious people don’t use reason or logic to justify their beliefs..

In your opinion .. or maybe you have met so many that don't, that you assume all are the same.

 

[F1fan]

The word "God" never entered my mind at that stage..
..just a feeling of "deja-vous" and/or "it all means something".

Where did you live that the word "god" was never used around you?

In your opinion .. or maybe you have met so many that don't, that you assume all are the same.

Not an opinion, but an observation. No theist has ever presented their testimony where they use reason via facts to conclude a God exists. If that were the case then critical thinkers would acknowledge a God likely existing. As it is theists struggle to explain what their idea of God is.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Where did you live that the word "god" was never used around you?

Totally irrelevant.
I was not thinking in terms of God.

..but if you must know, I was in HongKong at the time.

It was in my early teens when I became a choir-boy in the Church of England, back in the UK.
..then I lapsed for several years .. then I discovered Islam in my early twenties.

 

[F1fan]

Totally irrelevant.
I was not thinking in terms of God.

..but if you must know, I was in HongKong at the time.

It was in my early teens when I became a choir-boy in the Church of England, back in the UK.
..then I lapsed for several years .. then I discovered Islam in my early twenties.

Who suggested you be a choir boy? What attracted you to religion?

What does it mean to "discover" Islam? Did you feel an emptiness and needed an ideology to fill yourself up and feel significant? Explain.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Who suggested you be a choir boy? What attracted you to religion?

A friend suggested it .. I gave it a trial, and it worked out OK.
I have always liked singing .. I was in the school choir as well.
My Father wasn't impressed, but my mother was in favour.

What does it mean to "discover" Islam?

It means I had little knowledge of Islam, untiI I met Muslims in Birmingham UK.

Did you feel an emptiness and needed an ideology to fill yourself up and feel significant?

I was definitely struggling, as unemployment went up from 1 million to 3 million in a short space of time .. partly to do with the "oil crisis" of the 70's [OPEC], and the govt. of the day.

Islam did indeed give me a direction, and discipline in my life at a time of need.
We all have different stories to tell.
It is a personal journey with our own experiences.

 

[F1fan]

A friend suggested it .. I gave it a trial, and it worked out OK.
I have always liked singing .. I was in the school choir as well.

That is how social influence works and religion gets spread.

My Father wasn't impressed, but my mother was in favour.

Maybe a little rebellion against dad?

It means I had little knowledge of Islam, untiI I met Muslims in Birmingham UK.

More social influence at work.

I was definitely struggling, as unemployment went up from 1 million to 3 million in a short space of time .. partly to do with the "oil crisis" of the 70's [OPEC], and the govt. of the day.

Islam did indeed give me a direction, and discipline in my life at a time of need.
We all have different stories to tell.
It is a personal journey with our own experiences.

I have seen many witness testimony of religious converts who explaind their emptiness and lack of direction in life, and they used religion for the meaning and significance they couldn;t provide for themselves. To my mind this is why many such believers are caught in a dependency and can't assess their beliefs objectively or truthfully. To criticize religious belief is to criticize the idea-of-self, and that sort of crisis of identity can be a frightening thought.

 

[muhammad_isa]

More social influence at work..

Yes .. we are social creatures .. we need one another.

I have seen many witness testimony of religious converts who explaind their emptiness and lack of direction in life, and they used religion for the meaning and significance they couldn;t provide for themselves..

A very cynical view.
A person who proudly thinks themselves to be independent is fooling themselves. We are all dependent on one another.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

“Immoral behavior” as in “sexual promiscuity”?

I would think so.. Why would they restrain themselves? “Two consenting adults, there’s nothing wrong”….right?

Now if you mean “immoral behavior” to be thievery, murder, etc., no.
Atheists, like any humans, have a conscience, and thievery, murder, etc., are viewed as aberrant
behaviors in almost any society.

So let’s get back to sexual unrestraint: quite a few people, atheists and otherwise, are recognizing the negative effect that promiscuity is having on their respective societies.

There are many articles, quite a few of them peer-reviewed scientific articles, highlighting the problems that arise from such promiscuous lifestyles:

Sexual promiscuity: knowledge of dangers in institutions of higher learning - PubMed

Knowledge of dangers of sexual promiscuity was assessed in 2 institutions of higher learning. The objectives were to find out the knowledge of medical and social consequences as well as the factors responsible for sexual promiscuity among Nigerian youths. The study also assessed the...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://osf.io/d8gq9/download/?format=pdf

How Casual Sex Can Affect Our Mental Health

A recent large-scale national study shows that casual sex can have unintended emotional consequences that persist long after the one-night stand has ended.

www.psychologytoday.com

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/336024950_CAUSES_AND_CONSEQUENCES_OF_SEXUAL_PROMISCUITY_AMONG_UNDERGRADUATES_IN_TERTIARY_INSTITUTIONS_IN_ANAMBRA_STATE

Effects of human sexual promiscuity - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

There are soo many more! Google it.

The Bible has condemned those practices for centuries…..

It is actually a good argument supporting the Bible as being from a Higher Source. — Jeremiah 10:23… “O Jehovah, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.”

What does Jehovah ask us to do?
Isaiah 48:18….”Oh, if only you would pay attention to My commandments! Then your peace would become just like a river…”

 

[Valjean]

“Immoral behavior” as in “sexual promiscuity”?

I would think so.. Why would they restrain themselves? “Two consenting adults, there’s nothing wrong”….right?

Now if you mean “immoral behavior” to be thievery, murder, etc., no.
Atheists, like any humans, have a conscience, and thievery, murder, etc., are viewed as aberrant
behaviors in almost any society.

The religious have no need to worry about cause and effect. They need only follow their rule book and have faith their behavior is right and proper. Their morality is external, and it's intended function irrelevant. If their behavior is upright, it's only because they lean on this written moral crutch, not because they're good persons.

Atheists have no external scaffolding. They're forced actually to think about function and effect; to develop an internalized morality, based on observable consequences of their behavior. This, it seems to me, is a much more robust and beneficent moral foundation than the Bible.

So let’s get back to sexual unrestraint: quite a few people, atheists and otherwise, are recognizing the negative effect that promiscuity is having on their respective societies.

There are many articles, quite a few of them peer-reviewed scientific articles, highlighting the problems that arise from such promiscuous lifestyles:

Sexual promiscuity: knowledge of dangers in institutions of higher learning - PubMed

Knowledge of dangers of sexual promiscuity was assessed in 2 institutions of higher learning. The objectives were to find out the knowledge of medical and social consequences as well as the factors responsible for sexual promiscuity among Nigerian youths. The study also assessed the...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://osf.io/d8gq9/download/?format=pdf

How Casual Sex Can Affect Our Mental Health

A recent large-scale national study shows that casual sex can have unintended emotional consequences that persist long after the one-night stand has ended.

www.psychologytoday.com

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/336024950_CAUSES_AND_CONSEQUENCES_OF_SEXUAL_PROMISCUITY_AMONG_UNDERGRADUATES_IN_TERTIARY_INSTITUTIONS_IN_ANAMBRA_STATE

Effects of human sexual promiscuity - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

There are soo many more! Google it.

Yes, the danger of disease transmission from close contact is pretty obvious -- and pretty obviously not a scourge of God. It's a medically manageable problem.
Management should encourage persons to know their venereal health status and act accordingly, eg: don't take a friend home from a bar till you've finished your course of antibiotics, and keep high school bathroom dispensers stocked with condoms.

As for social consequences, they're largely because of religion, which discourages sex ed and foments rejection, discrimination, shame and depression among the sexually active.

The Bible has condemned those practices for centuries…..

It is actually a good argument supporting the Bible as being from a Higher Source. — Jeremiah 10:23… “O Jehovah, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.”

What does Jehovah ask us to do?
Isaiah 48:18….”Oh, if only you would pay attention to My commandments! Then your peace would become just like a river…”

The biblical authors didn't know the causes of disease, but mandated draconian regulation, enforcement, punishments, and social opprobrium, justified through religion, to reduce disease, misbehavior, and other social ills.
The Bible draws on human social and hygienic engineering and attributes them to God, giving them authority, and giving people authority to enforce them.

Now that we better understand disease and epidemiology, sex may be enjoyed safely and promiscuously, without worries, as long as proper hygienic precautions are observed and others eschew useless judgement or shaming.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The religious have no need to worry about cause and effect. They need only follow their rule book and have faith their behavior is right and proper. Their morality is external, and it's intended function irrelevant. If their behavior is upright, it's only because they lean on this written moral crutch, not because they're good persons.

That's absolute nonsense.
The righteous believe in G-d, because they ARE good persons.

 

[Colt]

​

I'd suppose this depends on what you view as moral behavior but I thought I'd ask the question to see what people would say.

It is easy to justify one's personal morals but I'd like you to consider the world at large. Is the world becoming more moral or less moral?

And, does this have anything to do with the decline of religious belief?

Not necessarily, but it could lead to disqualifying the source of moral truth. Atheism defiantly rejects the existence and authority of our creator Father.

 

[Valjean]

That's absolute nonsense.
The righteous believe in G-d, because they ARE good persons.

Horsefeathers!

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

So let’s get back to sexual unrestraint: quite a few people, atheists and otherwise, are recognizing the negative effect that promiscuity is having on their respective societies.

Those mores also do harm. I was a Christian as a young man and married a woman without prior sexual experience with her. We were sexually incompatible. We were also incompatible as housemates. We also hadn't tried living together yet. Such is faith. I eventually left that religion and unhappy marriage, met a woman that I determined I was compatible with before marrying, and have been happily married for over 33 years now.

There are many articles, quite a few of them peer-reviewed scientific articles, highlighting the problems that arise from such promiscuous lifestyles:

The Abrahamic religions' interest in sexual practices was practical. They needed every fertile womb to be in production, and they were concerned about paternity and inheritance. The Hebrews were frequently at war, killing their young men prematurely. Women died in childbirth more frequently and infant mortality was high. And everybody everywhere was more likely to die of an infection such as a tooth abscess or wound infection, or from a poisoning from bad food. So, every young maiden was encouraged to marry as soon as she was fertile, and there were admonitions about withholding sex, divorce, homosexuality, masturbation, and contraceptive practices (rhythm method at first; pills, IUDs, and abortion later).

And those articles were admonitions against careless sex, not extramarital sex. The first was about Nigerians acquiring STDs, and the second about sex with strangers. There is room for safe, responsible, life-affirming, extramarital sexual relationships.

What does Jehovah ask us to do?
Isaiah 48:18….”Oh, if only you would pay attention to My commandments! Then your peace would become just like a river…”

We don't need answers from heaven to achieve peace, and the religions don't promote it except with minimal lip service. The religions with their tribal gods, and their bigotries and irrational and counterproductive moral commandments are not the answer. We need a better means of generating mutually tolerant people, and we have one - secular humanism. The US Constitution with its humanistic influences forced religious tolerance on the colonies, a step toward just that vision. Finland just joined the UN (edit: oops! NATO), the latest step toward realizing that vision.

The religions aren't part of such processes. Saying 'love one another' accomplishes nothing. And religions don't exist for mankind. They're self-licking ice cream cones: "a process, department, institution, or other thing that offers few benefits and exists primarily to justify or perpetuate its own existence." Where were they during the pandemic? It was secular governments developing and rolling out vaccines and subsidizing people and businesses, not the church. But the religions unsurprisingly continue to offer themselves as the answer.

Have you seen the Baha'i threads? And they also complain that if only people would obey their God and scriptures better, they could be united, then tell members of the other Abrahamic faiths that their religions are outdated and decadent. That wasn't very well received. I tell them the same - you don't have answers. This approach hasn't produced unity, just more tribalism.

 

[Polymath257]

“Immoral behavior” as in “sexual promiscuity”?

I would think so.. Why would they restrain themselves? “Two consenting adults, there’s nothing wrong”….right?

Well, there is always the threat of catching and spreading disease. There is also the risk of pregnancy.

That means it is intelligent to *talk to your partners* and get to know them before engaging in sexual activities.

Now if you mean “immoral behavior” to be thievery, murder, etc., no.
Atheists, like any humans, have a conscience, and thievery, murder, etc., are viewed as aberrant
behaviors in almost any society.

So let’s get back to sexual unrestraint: quite a few people, atheists and otherwise, are recognizing the negative effect that promiscuity is having on their respective societies.

There are many articles, quite a few of them peer-reviewed scientific articles, highlighting the problems that arise from such promiscuous lifestyles:

Sexual promiscuity: knowledge of dangers in institutions of higher learning - PubMed

Knowledge of dangers of sexual promiscuity was assessed in 2 institutions of higher learning. The objectives were to find out the knowledge of medical and social consequences as well as the factors responsible for sexual promiscuity among Nigerian youths. The study also assessed the...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://osf.io/d8gq9/download/?format=pdf

How Casual Sex Can Affect Our Mental Health

A recent large-scale national study shows that casual sex can have unintended emotional consequences that persist long after the one-night stand has ended.

www.psychologytoday.com

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/336024950_CAUSES_AND_CONSEQUENCES_OF_SEXUAL_PROMISCUITY_AMONG_UNDERGRADUATES_IN_TERTIARY_INSTITUTIONS_IN_ANAMBRA_STATE

Effects of human sexual promiscuity - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

There are soo many more! Google it.

The Bible has condemned those practices for centuries…..

It is actually a good argument supporting the Bible as being from a Higher Source. — Jeremiah 10:23… “O Jehovah, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.”

What does Jehovah ask us to do?
Isaiah 48:18….”Oh, if only you would pay attention to My commandments! Then your peace would become just like a river…”

Yes, irresponsible sex can spread STDs and in a society that looks askance at sexuality, it can lead to social problems.

It would be better if sex was NOT considered in such a bad light, which would remove the social stigma. Being careful about STDs is intelligent and necessary.

So, all your articles say that we should have *responsible* sex. And I agree with that. But that does NOT imply monogamy.

If you drive a car, you should do it responsibly. That doesn't mean you can only drive one car. But it does mean you should use protection and know the safety status of the car. (Yes, I know, crude analogy...sorry).

 

[Polymath257]

That's absolute nonsense.
The righteous believe in G-d, because they ARE good persons.

1. Not all good people believe in God.

2. Not all people who believe in God are good people.

And all the other logical categories: being good and believing in God are not strongly correlated. In some communities, they are inversely correlated.

 

[Valjean]

I

1. Not all good people believe in God.

2. Not all people who believe in God are good people.

And all the other logical categories: being good and believing in God are not strongly correlated. In some communities, they are inversely correlated.

I've read that one of the highest proportions of god-believers is amongst prison populations.

 

[Revoltingest]

Not necessarily, but it could lead to disqualifying the source of moral truth. Atheism defiantly rejects the existence and authority of our creator Father.

There's nothing defiant about it for me.
I've never believed.
There's no good reason to believe.
This is simply a default position....like not
believing in Santa Claus, The Easter Bunny,
fiscally conservative Democrats, & small
government Republicans.

Defiance might occur among former believers,
who discovered that they've been taught, &
believed in a religion that's fraught with myth,
hypocrisy, & even heinous prescriptions.
I don't envy them. There's is a difficult path.

 

[ChristineM]

I

I've read that one of the highest proportions of god-believers is amongst prison populations.

Certainly in America the percentage of Christian prisoners is greater than the population average. While the percentage of atheist prisoners is less than the population average.

You also find crime rates, unmarried mothers and incidence of STIs to be highly in bible belt states

 

[Polymath257]

Not necessarily, but it could lead to disqualifying the source of moral truth. Atheism defiantly rejects the existence and authority of our creator Father.

Do you defiantly reject the existence and authority of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Or do you simply not believe the FSM exists at all?