Does Atheism Lead to Immoral Behavior?

[muhammad_isa]

I used extreme there to get your attention.

The woman is sick, has a headache and does not want to have sex. The man makes her anyway because he wants to have sex.

That is rape just as my extreme scenario was.

yes .. I thought that you were "playing" with me.
We all get what we deserve in the end.

Good men are for good women, and good women are for good men .. and bad women .. they devour their mate.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

In my opinion, it is vitally necessary to vehemently condemn and denounce the appalling values expressed by this other member. I believe it is abundantly clear to everyone that, as a humanist, you are considerably more moral than the person whose abhorrent values you have been challenging in your posts.

Thank you, and likewise. Your values are the same as mine. I expect that you arrived at them the same way I did mine - by listening to an empathetic conscience.

That is not your concern.

Yes it is. You were asked, "And what punishment should the abusive husband face for being abusive?"

He is the father of your children.

Are you writing this to the rape victim? OK, so what if he's their father? He's also their mother's rapist, and if she is not safe with her husband, neither are her children. She has no further duty to him once he forces himself upon her, but she does have a duty to society to report it and get this man off her neighbors' streets.

Having sexual intercourse with your wife should not be a criminal offence.

Agreed. It should be a consensual act, consensual in the Western sense.

A man or woman should NOT cite a sexual offence against their partner. In that case, they need to separate.

That's first thing she needs to do, but not the last.

Are you paying attention to all of this? You don't live in a Muslim theocracy governed by Sharia law. You live in a modern Western democracy with humanist values. Do you understand that your wife can report you if you force sex on her and that you might wind up in prison if you do and she exercises her rights?

I believe a man should take responsibility for a wife and children.. ..not go around with different partners causing trouble. Your belief finds that acceptable.

What others do sexually that is lawful is acceptable to me including adultery. I'm not religious, so why would I think otherwise? Nobody has taught me that these matters are my business or the state's, and there is no good reason to think otherwise.

Is she likely to have disliked the attention when she first started having sex with him?

Is he a man who she never had relations with before marriage who thinks that he has a right to her body against her will? If so, then yes, sex was probably never good for her.

I suggest you start praying, and asking G-d for a reasonable husband/wife.

I have a better idea. I suggest living with a prospective spouse before committing to marriage, and using good judgment. That's exactly how my first marriage went. No sex or cohabitation before marriage only for me to discover that she was incapable of love and sexually constipated. Not surprisingly, that marriage, which occurred while I was religious and taking the kind of advice you offer here, failed. The next one, which did involve premarital sex and cohabitation, has been successful - another argument for empiricism and against belief by faith.

 

[muhammad_isa]

"I don't think this happens, therefore we should carve out a special exception to decriminalizate this when it happens."

Not at all.
A man who does that, you should have nothing to do with him.
He will get what he deserves eventually .. one way or another.

I have more concern over the consequences of adultery and fornication, which the majority
in the West think is acceptable.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Do you understand that your wife can report you if you force sex on her and that you might wind up in prison if you do and she exercises her rights?

Why are you reminding me of that?
What has that got to do with the discussion?
Nothing!

We were discussing Islamic law.
..and you find adultery acceptable .. I don't.

 

[SkepticThinker]

yes .. I thought that you were "playing" with me.
We all get what we deserve in the end.

Good men are for good women, and good women are for good men .. and bad women .. they devour their mate.

Bad men don't also "devour their mate?" Just bad women?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Not at all.
A man who does that, you should have nothing to do with him.
He will get what he deserves eventually .. one way or another.

"Hey - who needs criminal laws? 'Karma' will catch up with him eventually!"

I have more concern over the consequences of adultery and fornication, which the majority
in the West think is acceptable.

Maybe stop to think how this reflects on your character.

And don't think I didn't notice the hypocrisy:

- spousal rape: "meh - bad people will get what's coming to them without making what they're doing a crime."

- adultery and fornication: "we need floggings and executions to address these scourges!"

 

[muhammad_isa]

Bad men don't also "devour their mate?" Just bad women?

as I said previously .. they need their heads banging together.
From what I can see though, men do not accuse their spouse of sexual offences.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

..it depends on the reason .. and who's doing the judging, of course.
Divorce is not desirable, but often the only solution .. particularly these days.

The main thing that a religious person cares about in finding a marriage partner,
is are they religious .. do they pray daily, and fast etc?

Do you think it is generally true or false in your society that it is shameful or, at the very least, discouraged for women to divorce their husbands?

There should be no punishment for having sexual intercourse with your partner.

ABUSE.

I am not talking about sexual intercourse. I am talking about PHYSICAL AND SEXUAL ABUSE.

Answer the question.

 

[muhammad_isa]

And don't think I didn't notice the hypocrisy:

- spousal rape: "meh - bad people will get what's coming to them without making what they're doing a crime."

If I say that there should be a crime of "marital rape" to protect women from abuse,
this implies that the institution of Islamic marriage is not enough to protect her.

..it also means that a woman that is displeased with her husband, can refuse him his conjugal rights
for an extended period of time, which might lead to a situation in which she is abused .. and then she wants him imprisoned.
..doesn't look right to me.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Answer the question.

..no need to be rude.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

..not a good start for a marriage.

I am sure it isn't for an egotistical, dominating man who believes women are beneath him because he has a penis and practices a bigoted, misogynistic religion. However, it is the perfect beginning of a beautiful marriage based on earned respect, mutual trust, and unconditional love for a man of integrity who respects his wife, loves her more than anyone else, and regards her as his equal. That is the type of marriage that I have had for the past thirty years.

 

[SkepticThinker]

as I said previously .. they need their heads banging together.

A woman being raped by her husband doesn't need her hang banged against anything. She needs to run for her life and call the police.

From what I can see though, men do not accuse their spouse of sexual offences.

Perhaps because rape tends to happen the other way around.

I guess you don't realize how chauvinistic that statement of yours was.

 

[SkepticThinker]

If I say that there should be a crime of "marital rape" to protect women from abuse,
this implies that the institution of Islamic marriage is not enough to protect her.

..it also means that a woman that is displeased with her husband, can refuse him his conjugal rights
for an extended period of time, which might lead to a situation in which she is abused .. and then she wants him imprisoned.
..doesn't look right to me.

So again, it's the woman's fault that her husband has forced himself upon her?

Something certainly doesn't look right to me, about your point of view on this.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

So again, it's the woman's fault that her husband has forced himself upon her?

Something certainly doesn't look right to me, about your point of view on this.

It's the classic dehumanizing and gaslighting tactic of blaming the rape victim for being raped.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Perhaps because rape tends to happen the other way around..

I wonder why..
Of course, we all know, don't we .. it is about the virility of the male.

 

[muhammad_isa]

So again, it's the woman's fault that her husband has forced himself upon her?

Imagine you are a policeman..
..and women keep coming to complain to you about their husbands..
..and on interviewing their husbands, they come up with some story about .. whatever..

Isn't that the job of a marriage guidance councillor?
..either a marriage will be successful .. or it has broken down irretrievably.

..and you haven't commented on my major objection..

"a woman that is displeased with her husband, can refuse him his conjugal rights
for an extended period of time, which might lead to a situation in which she is abused .. and then she wants him imprisoned."

 

[ImmortalFlame]

..no need to be rude.

No need to constantly avoid answering the question and misrepresenting what I am asking about.

I am now assuming that the only reason you cannot answer the question is because you are afraid to admit something.

Is it because you are afraid to admit that your society does not punish abuse, or is it because you are afraid to admit that you don't care if women are abused?

It can only be one or the other.

 

[SkepticThinker]

It's the classic dehumanizing and gaslighting tactic of blaming the rape victim for being raped.

Perfectly stated.

 

[ChristineM]

If I say that there should be a crime of "marital rape" to protect women from abuse,
this implies that the institution of Islamic marriage is not enough to protect her.

Correct, marriage is not enough to protest people (women or men) from sick minded people

 

[SkepticThinker]

Imagine you are a policeman..
..and women keep coming to complain to you about their husbands..
..and on interviewing their husbands, they come up with some story about .. whatever..

Isn't that the job of a marriage guidance councillor?
..either a marriage will be successful .. or it has broken down irretrievably.

..and you haven't commented on my major objection..

"a woman that is displeased with her husband, can refuse him his conjugal rights
for an extended period of time, which might lead to a situation in which she is abused .. and then she wants him imprisoned."

We're not talking about stories of "whatever."
We're talking about a husband raping a wife which should fall square in the lap of the police.

I responded directly to your "major objection" in my last post. It's chauvinistic nonsense. What you are saying is that if a woman withholds sex from her partner, that her partner is basically entitled to rape her, and that it would be the woman's fault for withholding sex in the first place. That's disgusting to me.