Does Atheism Lead to Immoral Behavior?

[F1fan]

Wow.

The fact that you would characterise a woman recording her husband abusing her as her "trapping her husband into mistreating her" says a lot.

Good, 8th century morals that don't work in the 21st century.

If any Muslim treated their wives in how @muhammad_isa claims "pleases G_d" they could be arrested and prosecuted. But not executed.

Literally, you genuinely believe that women being abused by their husbands is their own fault.

Not long ago you were saying that men abusing their wives was immoral, and here you are making it sound as if it is entirely the woman's fault.

Unbelievable.

It's amazing how flexible "mistreatment" is to @muhammad_isa. Muslim husbands can do no wrong, but somehow they allow a wife to disagree that she is allowed a divorce? How can this be? If a husband says he is being nice and fair, and the wife is unhappy, who is correct in his mind?

If I understand this twisted "God's law", a husband can rape his wife, and if she is unhappy she can file for divorce. Is there any protection for her at that point, or can the husband continue to rape the woman until the divorce is final?

 

[muhammad_isa]

In this case, it's not a "trap." It's a woman recording the goings-on of her marriage, so that she can prove she's being abused.

No. The sexual goings on of a married couple should not be the business of the courts.
We all know that it is, in the West.
What else can be done, when marriage is only "optional" in a society?

How would you like her to prove she's being abused, exactly?

The same way that a husband who is abused would prove it .. bodily harm and witnesses.
If a woman doesn't like her husband .. doesn't like him in the bedroom .. doesn't like his discipline etc,
she needs to leave.
That's the problem with a society that doesn't value marriage .. it becomes a "fight-out" when things go wrong..
..more usually about money than any thing else.
If a woman can get rid their husband in prison, they have won the jackpot.

 

[muhammad_isa]

That's what we're talking about,.

No it isn't.
It's about a man having sex with his wife, when she said "no" .. the technical citing of a man raping his wife..

 

[ImmortalFlame]

No. The sexual goings on of a married couple should not be the business of the courts.

Abuse should be.

The same way that a husband who is abused would prove it .. bodily harm and witnesses.

Except not all abuse leaves bodily arm, and not all abuse is done in front of witnesses. So, what do they do?

If a woman doesn't like her husband .. doesn't like him in the bedroom .. doesn't like his discipline etc,
she needs to leave.

And what if she tries to leave, but she is scared because, y'know, her husband is abusive. Not to mention the fact that, in many societies, a woman leaving her husband is seen as socially shameful - and sometimes can even result in her being completely abandoned by her family.

That's the problem with a society that doesn't value marriage .. it becomes a "fight-out" when things go wrong..

I would say a society which permits abuse within a marriage doesn't value marriage either.

..more usually about money than any thing else.
If a woman can get rid their husband in prison, they have won the jackpot.

Again, you paint women as the predatory ones when we are explicitly talking about women being abused by their husbands.

You should feel ashamed.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

No it isn't.
It's about a man having sex with his wife, when she said "no" .. the technical citing of a man raping his wife..

We're talking about all abuse, including sexual abuse.

 

[muhammad_isa]

People who abuse others should be punished. End of discussion. If you disagree, you are immoral.

You are confused.
You accept the values of the society you live in.

i.e. a woman has to give consent on every occasion that she has sexual intercourse with a man

In a traditional society, marriage implies consent in law.
If a woman no longer wants to give consent, she must separate .. divorce.

A reasonable husband would treat their wives well.
..so I would say don't be married to an unreasonable husband !

 

[F1fan]

You are confused.
You accept the values of the society you live in.

Oh the iony. As if you haven't adopted your 8th century religiious beliefs that are illegal and immoral in the 21st century. Notice there are many Muslims that do not live by your obsolete ideas? Why such disagreement if they are following God?

 

[muhammad_isa]

It's amazing how flexible "mistreatment" is to @muhammad_isa. Muslim husbands can do no wrong

Of course they can .. and so can Muslim wives.
..putting "Muslim" in front of what your saying changes nothing.

.. but somehow they allow a wife to disagree that she is allowed a divorce?

That is not according to Islam .. not according to the Qur'an.
Anybody who does that, or conspires in that, it is against their own souls.

How can this be? If a husband says he is being nice and fair, and the wife is unhappy, who is correct in his mind?

Unless a woman has committed adultery, the wife is ALWAYS correct.
She is entitled to a no-fault divorce.

..can the husband continue to rape the woman until the divorce is final?

..already been answered .. No .. a man cannot have sexual intercourse with his wife, when she has
filed for divorce.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

You are confused.
You accept the values of the society you live in.

So your society thinks abuse is okay?

I'm pretty sure they don't.

i.e. a woman has to give consent on every occasion that she has sexual intercourse with a man

Yes. I live in a society where rape is generally frowned upon, yes.

In a traditional society, marriage implies consent in law.

That's not "traditional". That's just pro-rape.

If a woman no longer wants to give consent, she must separate .. divorce.

So if a woman wants her husband to stop raping her, she should be forced to go through the lengthy, emotional, and difficult process of divorce - at the end of which she is often socially shunned by society and abandoned by her family, in certain societies - while nothing bad must happen to the husband who abused her.

Sounds great.

A reasonable husband would treat their wives well.

So, what should happen to the unreasonable ones who don't, and whose wives are too afraid - or are otherwise unable - to separate from them?

..so I would say don't be married to an unreasonable husband !

So it's the women's fault, again.

 

[SkepticThinker]

No. The sexual goings on of a married couple should not be the business of the courts.
We all know that it is, in the West.
What else can be done, when marriage is only "optional" in a society?

It should if there is rape involved.

Then you say, oh well how can you prove a husband raped his wife?

Then somebody gives an example of exactly how a woman can do that. And you claim that a woman proving that her husband is abusing her by recording it, is acting immoral. Not the rape, mind you, but the recording of that rape, that's the immoral part!

A woman just can't win with you, it seems. It may have something to do with your chauvinistic attitude.

The same way that a husband who is abused would prove it .. bodily harm and witnesses.

You just claimed that the woman recording the abuse is immoral. So that's out, apparently. You really aren't leaving women with many options here.

If a woman doesn't like her husband .. doesn't like him in the bedroom .. doesn't like his discipline etc,
she needs to leave.
That's the problem with a society that doesn't value marriage .. it becomes a "fight-out" when things go wrong..
..more usually about money than any thing else.
If a woman can get rid their husband in prison, they have won the jackpot.

I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT MONEY. I'm talking about rape. Is money the only thing that matters to you?

You don't actually seem to value marriage at all. Rather, what you seem to value is a man having a woman available to him for his sexual pleasure, whenever he so pleases. And if she can't provide, he's free to take it anyway, and free to grab a few more wives to have sex with. Ugh.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Except not all abuse leaves bodily arm, and not all abuse is done in front of witnesses. So, what do they do?

Get out, and marry a better person .. before it's too late, and you end up lumping each other.

And what if she tries to leave, but she is scared because, y'know, her husband is abusive. Not to mention the fact that, in many societies, a woman leaving her husband is seen as socially shameful - and sometimes can even result in her being completely abandoned by her family.

Tell me about it .. there are all sorts of evil going on in the world.
Men have to deal with it too.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Get out, and marry a better person .. before it's too late, and you end up lumping each other.

And what if he threatens her if she tries to leave?

And what if her family disown her?

And what if divorce is costly and difficult to obtain?

And what punishment should the abusive husband face for being abusive?

Tell me about it .. there are all sorts of evil going on in the world.
Men have to deal with it too.

Yes, they do. I was in an abusive relationship. I personally know how difficult it can be to leave a woman who has a tight psychological grip on you.

But the point is, if your society calls woman immoral for wanting to expose their husbands as abusers, your society is immoral.

 

[muhammad_isa]

That's not "traditional". That's just pro-rape.

Oh well .. I explained it to you.
..I guess an atheist just can't understand .. or doesn't want to understand.

So if a woman wants her husband to stop raping her, she should be forced to go through the lengthy, emotional, and difficult process of divorce

Certainly not !
If a woman realises she has married the wrong person [ or she no longer wants to be with them][,
she is entitled to a no-fault divorce .. immediately, if she so desires.
The usual waiting period is one month, and she can change her mind if she wants.
Sexual intercourse is forbidden in the waiting period.

- at the end of which she is often socially shunned by society and abandoned by her family, in certain societies - while nothing bad must happen to the husband who abused her.

I'm sure that happens. Bad things happen in most societies.
..but as a general rule, nobody is the "winner" in a divorce.
The more family structure becomes fragmented in a society, the worse it becomes.

Nobody likes a bad man. They get what's coming to them.
You reckon they can just keep getting married again and abusing their wives?
No .. they can't. These abused women have brothers, fathers, uncles..

So, what should happen to the unreasonable ones who don't, and whose wives are too afraid - or are otherwise unable - to separate from them?

..they can get help from their local mosque.
If they will not help her, then they are not doing their duty.
You can't just marry people, and refuse pastoral care.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I would say if people go around shooting each other, because somebody has touched their wife or girlfriend, it affects us all.

And I would disagree. However much adultery is going on in the world and however many people are being shot over it is not a public problem. The mass shootings are a public problem since everybody is at risk, but not these private problems. Only those indulging in that behavior are at risk, not society at large.

Islam does not teach a Muslim to mistreat his wife.

That's a problematic statement coming from you, which has little meaning given your definition of mistreating a wife. You also never explained where you learned those moral values if not your religion despite being asked repeatedly, so I have no reason not to believe that many Muslim men are just like you because they are Muslim. That may be incorrect, but if it is, the correction won't come from you. You're simply not credible given your definitions of rape, abuse, and mistreatment and your contempt for female bodily autonomy. I'd have to hear it from a non-Muslim knowledgeable about Muslim culture.

It IS immoral for a woman to trap her husband into mistreating her.

Your version of morality and immorality was already rejected even before reading that.

I'm saying that trying to get your husband imprisoned by citing a sexual offence, is immoral.

Yes, you've said so already. Nobody here agrees with you, but I'm sure you'll find support among other Muslim men. I simply don't accept that you are a one-off and not the product of your religion.

A man who physically abuses his wife, and causes serious harm is a different kettle of fish.

And here we go again with your Muslim version of abuse. It's the same kettle. Forceable rape is physical abuse, sexual abuse, and emotional abuse in humanist ethics.

The sexual goings on of a married couple should not be the business of the courts. We all know that it is, in the West.

More of this primitive culture. Yes, crime is the bailiwick of the police and courts even when it occurs between spouses. Humanist values are different from yours.

The same way that a husband who is abused would prove it .. bodily harm and witnesses.

But you disapprove. You called a woman reporting forced sex immoral if it were her husband raping her, that such matters should be kept within the family.

I guess an atheist just can't understand .. or doesn't want to understand.

Your values are well understood. And rejected.

 

[muhammad_isa]

And what if divorce is costly and difficult to obtain?

Divorce does not require lawyers.
It is a simple procedure.

And what punishment should the abusive husband face for being abusive?

That is not your concern.
He is the father of your children.
Cool down..

But the point is, if your society calls woman immoral for wanting to expose their husbands as abusers, your society is immoral.

Oh dear .. round and round in circles we go.
A happy married couple has a satisfied sex life.

A man or woman should NOT cite a sexual offence against their partner.
In that case, they need to separate.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT MONEY. I'm talking about rape..

No .. your're talking about a woman who wants to imprison their husband, citing a sexual offence.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Your values are well understood. And rejected.

snap!

I believe a man should take responsibility for a wife and children..
..not go around with different partners causing trouble.
Your belief finds that acceptable.

 

[Revoltingest]

No .. your're talking about a woman who wants to imprison their husband, citing a sexual offence.

It seems you're fixated on that possible consequence.
The other poster is talking about the crime of rape itself.
Do you agree that a husband raping a wife is criminal, or at least wrong?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Divorce does not require lawyers.
It is a simple procedure.

It doesn't deal with the abuser, though.

And what happens, in your society, to divorced women? How are they regarded?

That is not your concern.

Yes it is.

He is the father of your children.
Cool down..

So he should just get away with it, then? Men who abuse their wives get off scott free.

Oh dear .. round and round in circles we go.
A happy married couple has a satisfied sex life.

We're not talking about happy married couples. We're talking about marriages in which there is abuse.

A man or woman should NOT cite a sexual offence against their partner.

Why not? What is wrong about revealing that your partner is abusive, dangerous and evil? Do you not think those people should be shamed and punished?

In that case, they need to separate.

And what happens to the perpetrator of the abuse?

Literally, you would not say these things in any other context. "Oh, you stabbed me? Well, guess we should just not be friends any more, then."

No, they are abusers. They committed abuse. They are violent, dangerous and evil and deserve to be punished.

So, what should happen to them?

 

[muhammad_isa]

It seems you're fixated on that possible consequence.
The other poster is talking about the crime of rape itself.
Do you agree that a husband raping a wife is criminal, or at least wrong?

It is a contradiction.
If a couple "live in sin", they are committing illegal sexual intercourse.
If they are married, they cannot be accused of an illegal sexual act.

If a wife doesn't like the attention she is getting from her husband .. why?
Is she likely to have disliked the attention when she first started having sex with him?
[rhetorical question]