Does Atheism Lead to Immoral Behavior?

[SkepticThinker]

I can only agree with one of the three i.e. punishment for sex outside marriage.

However, this doesn't happen very often.
The same as hands don't get cut off very often.

That doesn't mean that there are no thieves or fornicators.
Perhaps people are careful not to be caught .. but if they are..

The "beating one's wife" is illegal, unless like spanking a child for being naughty.
I suppose you'll be telling me that it is psychological violence.

"unless like spanking a child for being naughty... "

So a man can spank his wife "like a child for being naughty" ?????

That's messed up!

I do not agree with it being illegal to spank a child, either.
I understand why it is illegal .. because a line has to be drawn.
There are too many mad people around losing control, and that is not acceptable.

However, we are not winning the battle against evil .. many children are growing up with no respect
for their elders.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I'm not talking about a single act..
I'm talking about carrying children, 'time of the month' etc.

A woman can still have sex during both of those times.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I have already made myself clear.
Mistreatment of wives is not condoned by G-d.

The "consent" laws are only there because the institution of marriage has collapsed.
There is nothing else that can be done.
In practice, it does not protect women from abuse.
It is not easy to prove that a husband has not got consent when sleeping in the same bed.
It's a nonsense.

Well, unless you have to spank your wife "like a naughty child" or if she doesn't want to have sex with you one time you can marry another woman who will.

 

[muhammad_isa]

A woman can still have sex during both of those times.

Great !
..so why would it be that the issue we are discussing, is about wives who are forced by their husbands to have sex?
Why isn't it the other way round?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

When we live in a society where it is commonplace, we don't see it for what it is.

This is part of you explaining why adulterers should be put to death. I think it's you who doesn't see adultery for what it is. It's married people having sex with other partners, and it is irrelevant to me if they do. If people do harm to their marriages, that's unfortunate, but for them and maybe others in their household, not for the rest of us. There is no benefit in putting such people to death unless you imagine that it would please the deity you worship.

says the atheist

You could learn a lot from humanists, whose moral system is based in reason applied to love, so there are no brutal, primitive ideas like killing people for having sex outside of marriage to please an imagined god.

"these things" have consequences that are far-reaching. They destroy the very fabric of our society, but we might not perceive.

No, sexual behavior is not harming society. Individuals may harm themselves and those that trust them, but as I said, that's irrelevant outside of those households. It doesn't harm those who are uninvolved. Just as long as they keep working if their jobs impact our lives. If my trash collector cheats on his wife and it ends up ruining his marriage but he continues picking up the trash, that's unfortunate, but as I said, for him. The fabric of society, which depends more on him continuing working but not on whether he lives with a wife and kids or alone, is still just fine.

Like the Abrahamic religions, you place more emphasis on child rearing than I do, as if the primary function of any society were to reproduce and the primary purpose of government were to facilitate childbirth. Right now, we need fewer people on the planet, not more. What's tears the fabric of society are things like war, pandemic, prolonged and widespread extreme weather, racism, and severe economic downturns - not who's having sex with whom. That's a religious conceit.

Rape is when a woman is attacked by a predator that they are not married to.

I assume that that is from the Qur'an. I've asked you a few times where that idea came from for you, and you have declined to answer, so until I know otherwise, I will assume that you learned that in mosque along with millions of other Muslim men, and you are ashamed to say so.

The original understanding of rape was when a woman was attacked or coerced to have sex outside of marriage.

Irrelevant, except to underline how primitive that conception of rape is.

I also asked you, "Why? Do other Muslims reject your values? Or is it only the fact of it going public from the mouth of the wife that's the disgrace?" in response to, "It would be a disgrace for a Muslim and his family." You also declined to answer that, so I'll assume that it's because it's the latter. If you choose to let such questions go unanswered, I choose to answer them tentatively according to what I think is most likely to be the case. You are always free to input your own answers, but you need not.

My working assumption is that you didn't just make all of this up independently, but learned it from your religion, that your opinions are commonplace among Muslim men, and that Muslim households commonly feature men abusing women and women afraid to report it for fear that the men would inflict physical violence if not honor killing to save face. If that's not correct, change my mind.

 

[SkepticThinker]

As I think I mentioned before, the attitudes you've expressed are things I've never gotten from the Muslims I know in real life.

Regardless of whether you feel like your views are religiously motivated, this really does seem to be a "you" thing, not an "all Muslims" thing.

I work with several Muslim men, and all of whom I'm quite sure, would be absolutely appalled by the sentiments being expressed here in regards to the treatment of their wives. Whew, to that!

 

[SkepticThinker]

Go and ask a policeman..
When is it reasonable to prosecute your husband for violent assault?
What evidence do I need etc.

The exact same evidence you'd need if you'd been raped by anyone else.

 

[SkepticThinker]

That's it .. Muslims are all monsters .. we don't care about our families

No one has said that. In fact, most have gone to great lengths to point out that it's not all Muslims and seems to be something very specific to your attitudes and beliefs. So you can give that a rest. Or perhaps put some thought into the way you are trying to represent Islam on this thread and how it comes off to those replying to it.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I see .. so what you are suggesting is that the "abused" woman gets video/audio evidence set up in the bedroom,
and then provoke her husband into sexual intercourse against her will.
That is evil. She will be held accountable for that by G-d.

If a woman fears violence from her husband, she should leave and seek divorce..
..not play silly games.


That won't do. It is not very convincing .. "heard stories".


I understand that. That is a good thing. I'm in total agreement with it.
A woman shouldn't be forced to live with a man who she doesn't approve of.

Why did you put "abused" in quotations?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Yes.
..but that has little to do with truth.

If a woman dislikes her husband, she should not be with him.
Setting up audio/video in a marital bedroom to use in a court against him in a "marital rape" charge is immoral.

So wait a minute here. You just asked what kind of evidence could be used to prove that a woman is being abused by her husband. Someone provided you with an example, and you've declared that to be immoral. Not the abuse from the husband mind you, but the method by which the wife could choose to prove that she's being abused. So you want to leave women with no way in which to prove they're being abused, in a situation where you don't real feel they're being abused anyway (you did put it in quotes ' "abused") because wifely duties and all that. This just gets worse and worse.

 

[muhammad_isa]

No, sexual behavior is not harming society. Individuals may harm themselves and those that trust them, but as I said, that's irrelevant outside of those households. It doesn't harm those who are uninvolved.

Does it not?
I would say if people go around shooting each other, because somebody has touched their wife or girlfriend,
it affects us all.

I also asked you, "To be accused of forcing his wife to have sex? Why? Do other Muslims reject your values? Or is it only the fact of it going public from the mouth of the wife that's the disgrace?" in response to, "It would be a disgrace for a Muslim and his family." You also declined to answer that, so I'll assume that it's because it's the latter.

You may assume whatever you like.
I have answered these questions so many times in this thread .. or do you only read the posts that I reply to you?

Islam does not teach a Muslim to mistreat his wife.
Naturally, a man is in disgrace if he does things that displease G-d.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Why did you put "abused" in quotations?

..because it always seems to be about blame.
A woman that no longer honours and respects their husband makes it all about blame.

 

[muhammad_isa]

So wait a minute here. You just asked what kind of evidence could be used to prove that a woman is being abused by her husband. Someone provided you with an example, and you've declared that to be immoral..

It IS immoral for a woman to trap her husband into mistreating her.

She is using the very thing that she liked when she married him [ his virility ] to use against him.

 

[ChristineM]

It IS immoral for a woman to trap her husband into mistreating her.

She is using the very thing that she liked when she married him [ his virility ] to use against him.

It is immoral for a husband to mistreat his wife in any circumstances. And if he has to be trapped for evidence in court then so what.

In muslim courts a woman needs a witness to confirm her testimony. Do you think any cowardly man who mistreats his wife is going to do it in front of a witness? Then video evidence is the next best thing

And love is a great deal more than virility. Virility is ok for a quicky every now and again but hoe about the time between bouts of sexual ecstasy?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

It IS immoral for a woman to trap her husband into mistreating her.

Wow.

The fact that you would characterise a woman recording her husband abusing her as her "trapping her husband into mistreating her" says a lot.

She is using the very thing that she liked when she married him [ his virility ] to use against him.

Literally, you genuinely believe that women being abused by their husbands is their own fault.

Not long ago you were saying that men abusing their wives was immoral, and here you are making it sound as if it is entirely the woman's fault.

Unbelievable.

 

[SkepticThinker]

..because it always seems to be about blame.
A woman that no longer honours and respects their husband makes it all about blame.

If a woman is raped by her husband, all the blame falls onto her husband.

 

[SkepticThinker]

It IS immoral for a woman to trap her husband into mistreating her.

She is using the very thing that she liked when she married him [ his virility ] to use against him.

In this case, it's not a "trap." It's a woman recording the goings-on of her marriage, so that she can prove she's being abused.

How would you like her to prove she's being abused, exactly?

It's disgustingly bizarre to me that in this situation, you are harping on the woman for being immoral for trying to prove she's being abused, but you don't seem to consider the abusive man to be immoral at all.

 

[F1fan]

Islam does not teach a Muslim to mistreat his wife.
Naturally, a man is in disgrace if he does things that displease G-d.

Do I remember you saying that you were not raised Muslim, but converted at some point?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Literally, you genuinely believe that women being abused by their husbands is their own fault.

No.

Not long ago you were saying that men abusing their wives was immoral, and here you are making it sound as if it is entirely the woman's fault..

I'm not saying that at all.
I'm saying that trying to get your husband imprisoned by citing a sexual offence, is immoral.
A man who physically abuses his wife, and causes serious harm is a different kettle of fish.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

No.

Then do not characterise a woman recording her husband abusing her as "trapping her husband into abusing her".

I'm not saying that at all.
I'm saying that trying to get your husband imprisoned by citing a sexual offence, is immoral.

That's utterly disgusting.

People who abuse others should be punished. End of discussion. If you disagree, you are immoral.

A man who physically abuses his wife, and causes serious harm is a different kettle of fish.

That's what we're talking about, and you suggested that her revealing his abuse - and seeking punishment for him - is immoral. You're explicitly justifying wife abuse.

Please explain to me how the things you have said are not explicitly protecting wife abuse.