Does being anti-Israel mean you're anti-semitic?

[lilithu]

I personally do not think so, however, a lot of people think differently

Does being anti-Israel and anti-ZIonism mean you're anti-semitic? Does being anti-Israel mean you support the terrorists? Why or why not?

What do you mean by anti-Israel? You lump anti-Israel and anti-Zionism together, which suggests that being pro-Israel is the same thing as being Zionist. I do not agree.

What do you mean by anti-Israel?

Do you mean that you are critical of the actions of the government of Israel with respect to how they've treated the Palestinians? In that case, I would say no, that's not anti-semitic. But I would also say that I wouldn't call that "anti-Israel."

Do you mean that you are against the right of Israel to exist as a nation? In that case, I would say, yes, you are anti-semitic. Or more accurately, anti-Jew, since Arabs are semitic people as well.

 

[mcteethinator]

Let me ask you as well: Do you truly maintain that children's textbooks in Gaza compare favorably with those in Jerusalem?

Wait a second. I've just done a bit more reading up on this topic.

A comic strip for children was carried in an ultra-Orthodox Jewish weekly, Sh'a Tova, that negatively depicted Arabs, and made the statement, "Yes, a good Arab is a dead Arab."

In the article "The Arab Image in Hebrew School Textbooks" by professor Dan Bar-Tal of the Tel Aviv University makes a study of 124 textbooks used in Israeli schools and reports that "over the years, generations of Israeli Jews were taught a negative and often delegitimizing view of Arabs." The two main traits of Arabs in the textbooks are "primitiveness, inferiority in comparison to Jews" and "their violence, to characteristics like brutality, untrustworthiness, cruelty, fanaticism, treacherousness and aggressiveness.". In the 1980s and 1990s "Geography books for the elementary and junior high schools stereotype Arabs negatively, as primitive, dirty, agitated, aggressive, and hostile to Jews … history books in the elementary schools hardly mention Arabs … history textbooks of the high schools, the majority of which cover the Arab-Jewish conflict, stereotype the Arabs negatively. Arabs are presented as intransigent and uncompromising.

Hmm.

 

[mcteethinator]

What do you mean by anti-Israel? You lump anti-Israel and anti-Zionism together, which suggests that being pro-Israel is the same thing as being Zionist. I do not agree.

Mmkay.

What do you mean by anti-Israel?

Do you mean that you are critical of the actions of the government of Israel with respect to how they've treated the Palestinians? In that case, I would say no, that's not anti-semitic. But I would also say that I wouldn't call that "anti-Israel."

I would.

Do you mean that you are against the right of Israel to exist as a nation? In that case, I would say, yes, you are anti-semitic. Or more accurately, anti-Jew, since Arabs are semitic people as well.

I think recognizing Israel's right to exist is getting mixed up with letting Jews live there. Jews can live there just as much as Palestinians can live there. I think the State of Israel needs serious reforming however, it might entail a name change too. My post on page one about a hypothetical "State of Israel and Palestine" sums up my views on my preferable mode of government there. Jews have just as much right to live there as Palestinians do.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Do you truly maintain that children's textbooks in Gaza compare favorably with those in Jerusalem?

No. What's your point.

That antisemitism and historical revisionism are policy.

Now since I've answered your question, care to answer mine? If you were a Palestinian, how would you feel about Jews?

That would depend entirely on the extent to which I bought into the antisemitism and historical revisionism. I hope that I would be smart enough and honest enough to condemn those responsible for my situation.

I equate all colonialism with racism.

EDIT: Well, then again, nationalism at it's most extreme form is racism. And I'd equate Zionism with being extreme (Kicking out an entire group of people because you're better than them and have more of a right to the land because your people lived there nearly 2000 years ago)

Did I mention historical revisionism?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Hmm.

"Hmm" indeed. Where is the comparable study emanating from the Arab academic world. Again we see the difference between aberration and policy. Again we see you trying blur this difference.

 

[lilithu]

Mmkay.

I would.

I think recognizing Israel's right to exist is getting mixed up with letting Jews live there. Jews can live there just as much as Palestinians can live there. I think the State of Israel needs serious reforming however, it might entail a name change too. My post on page one about a hypothetical "State of Israel and Palestine" sums up my views on my preferable mode of government there. Jews have just as much right to live there as Palestinians do.

To my mind:

Being "pro-Israel" means recognizing Israel's right to exist as a nation.
Being "Zionist" means believing that Israel should be a Jewish nation.

Being "anti-Zionist" means being against the exclusion of non-Jews.
Being "anti-Israel" means being against the existence of the state of Israel.

 

[mcteethinator]

That antisemitism and historical revisionism are policy.

Still not getting the relevance of my original thread question.

That would depend entirely on the extent to which I bought into the antisemitism and historical revisionism. I hope that I would be smart enough and honest enough to condemn those responsible for my situation.

And those would be...?

Did I mention historical revisionism?

yes.

"Hmm" indeed. Where is the comparable study emanating from the Arab academic world. Again we see the difference between aberration and policy. Again we see you trying blur this difference.

No. I'm not.

I hate all forms of racism. I am not demonizing all Israelis by those extracts, or that graffiti. I am merely using your own logic. They're both abhorrent.

 

[lilithu]

I think most people who are anti-Israel tend to be sympathetic toward the terrorists, even if they dislike their methods.

Agreed. And I hope that a number of people here who are saying that it's ok to be anti-Israel understand the full implications of that position.

I can tell you that I was anti-Israel for more than twenty years, and I still don't feel quite right about Zionism. I'm not convinced that either religion or ethnic identity is a good basis for a state. I don't believe Israel has always treated the Palestinians fairly or even humanely. What has changed my mind about Israel is the following:

• The Arab states have treated the Palestinians every bit as badly as Israel has.
• Even if I were a heterosexual Muslim Arab, I'd rather be a heterosexual Muslim Arab in Israel than in Saudi Arabia, Syria, or Iraq.
• If I were a Christian Arab, I'd rather be a Christian Arab in Israel than in any Arab country, with the possible exception of Jordan.
• If I were a gay Arab, I wouldn't want to be living in any Mideastern country but Israel.

In spite of being a Jewish state in a constant state of the threat of terrorism for almost sixty years, and in spite of admitted human rights violations on the part of Israel, Israel still manages to treat Arabs, or many of them, anyway, better than they can even hope to be treated in Arab countries. It's a long way from ideal, but under the circumstances, I think it shows a rather remarkable commitment to human rights. Imagine how the U.S., or Australia, or even Canada, would treat Arabs if they were in a situation that was even analogous to Israel's.

I think the Palestinians could be treated far better than they are. But I agree with you that they are not treated any better in neighboring countries, and often worse. And I also agree that when "judging" one has to take into account the fact that Israel has existed surrounded by countries that want to annihilate it. Just look at how the U.S. has responded after one terrorist attack. I don't just mean the two wars we've fought and Abu Grhaib and Gitmo, but also the violence committed against Arab and Muslim Americans by Americans. By comparison to us, the Israelis have exercised great restraint.

I personally like the system of governance in Israel, I just don't like how they treat Palestinians (Right of return, bulldozing unrelated Palestinians houses as a "counter terrorism measure" etc).

I agree. But as I said above, you have to take into account the environment in which they are operating. That doesn't excuse it, but a little understanding and compassion is in order on both sides.

 

[mcteethinator]

I agree. But as I said above, you have to take into account the environment in which they are operating. That doesn't excuse it, but a little understanding and compassion is in order on both sides.

I agree. What the Israelis is doing is a reaction to what the Palestinians are doing, and what the Palestinians are doing is a reaction to what the Israelis are doing. It's never ending cycle of hatred.

 

[mcteethinator]

Jay, I'm wondering, what exactly does overlooking that the Arabs attacked first in the 1948 Israeli-Arab War have to do with disagreeing with Israeli policy today?

 

[lilithu]

I agree. What the Israelis is doing is a reaction to what the Palestinians are doing, and what the Palestinians are doing is a reaction to what the Israelis are doing. It's never ending cycle of hatred.

Yes, but what the Israelis are doing is also a reaction to the other countries around them. When the president of Iran says that "Israel should be wiped off the map," he is making life harder for the Palestinians.

When you are surrounded by countries that say they want to annihilate you, you become a little more suspicious of people within your own borders who don't agree with you. You become a little more quick to use force. A little less willing to compromise. It's human nature to see things as more black and white when you feel threatened and to be more willing to empathize with "the other side" when you feel secure.

Yes, there is a cycle of hatred, which by itself would be hard enough to deal with. But there is more. The Palestinians resort to violence because they feel overpowered by the Israeli army and alone. The Israelis resort to violence because they feel surrounded by hostile armies and alone. If we want lasting peace in the region, we need to work on the surrounding countries. And no, I don't mean go to war with them; I mean getting them to acknowledge Israel's right to existence and normalizing relations between them. This has been happening, little by little over decades, but there is still much more that needs to be done.

 

[Comprehend]

And by the same token many supporters of Israel and zionism often resort to accusations of anti-semitism in order to damage their opponents credibility and gain sympathy for their cause.

The OP is asking about those who are "anti-Israel", it isn't asking about the supporters of Israel.

What is your point?

 

[Quagmire]

The OP is asking about those who are "anti-Israel", it isn't asking about the supporters of Israel.

What is your point?

That there are two sides to every story.

 

[Comprehend]

That there are two sides to every story.

Of course.

But in this thread I believe the OP asked specifically about one of them only.

 

[Quagmire]

Of course.

But in this thread I believe the OP asked specifically about one of them only.

Is it possible to talk about one side of a story without reffering to the other for a sense of perspective?

Unfortunately, all to often, it is.

 

[Smoke]

That there are two sides to every story.

Or more.

 

[Quagmire]

Or more.

Lol! Yes, I should have said, "at least two".

 

[capslockf9]

There is no such thing as "Gods' " chosen pelple.. I know europeans have no right to arab land. There is no such thing as a race of people. I know we are all brothers. And all this makes me an antagonistic to the " jew race".

 

[Mathematician]

I'm anti-Israel, anti-America, anti-Korea, anti-Iran, anti-England, anti-France, anti-Palestine, anti-Australia, anti-New Zealand, anti-China, anti-South Africa, anti-Egypt, anti-Mexico, anti-Cuba... but pro-culture. So long as you don't expect others to accept yours.

Hmm, I guess using some people's logic that makes me anti-everyone?

 

[mcteethinator]

I'm anti-Israel, anti-America, anti-Korea, anti-Iran, anti-England, anti-France, anti-Palestine, anti-Australia, anti-New Zealand, anti-China, anti-South Africa, anti-Egypt, anti-Mexico, anti-Cuba... but pro-culture. So long as you don't expect others to accept yours.

Hmm, I guess using some people's logic that makes me anti-everyone?

???

Are you like, anti-nation states in general or something?