Does being anti-Israel mean you're anti-semitic?

[lilithu]

Perhaps this will be of some help.

Not really, no. You think if someone said that "the U.S. govt should vanish from history" that wouldn't correctly be taken as "the U.S. should wiped off the map"? I think it's telling that it was the Iranian govt's own news agency that first translated it as thus.

Though it does remind me of people saying they "never hear moderate Muslims speak out against terrorism..."

Thanks Jamaesi. :sarcastic Nice to see that my support of Muslims is in question just because I have no trouble believing that Ahmadinejad is a scumbag.

 

[mcteethinator]

I will believe Arab and Persian leaders are truly concerned about human rights and self-determination when they propose independent states for the Kurds, Copts, Maronites, Assyrians, and other minorities in Muslim lands.

In Lebanon, the President *is* a Maronite so I don't quite see what you're getting at there. Assyrians are a religious minority group in a secular country. The Copts are a religious minority group in a non-secular country however, but

Maronites - Akin to saying that the indigenous people of Bolivia deserve their own nation-state when their president is indigenous.
Assyrians - Akin to saying religious minorities deserve their own independent nation state in the secular Christian-majority USA.
Copts - Akin to saying religious minorities deserve their own independent nation state in the non-secular Christian-majority UK.

Will we be giving California to the Mexicans soon too?

You're right about the Kurds however. Kurdistan etc.

It's not about human rights; it's about the idea that land once conquered by the Dar al-Islam cannot be allowed to fall into the hands of infidels again.

Sorry, but I've never heard any anti-Israel pro-Palestine Muslim say that was the reason for his/her views to me. They're concerned about the treatment of their Muslim brothers. We Muslims have a strong sense of solidarity with persecuted Muslims or Muslims we perceive to be persecuted.

 

[Smoke]

Sorry, but I've never heard any anti-Israel pro-Palestine Muslim say that was the reason for his/her views to me.

I have, and I'm not talking about extremists on the internet. I'm talking about perfectly sane people I've known in person.

They're concerned about the treatment of their Muslim brothers. We Muslims have a strong sense of solidarity with persecuted Muslims or Muslims we perceive to be persecuted.

Frankly, if that were true, the Muslim states would have been doing a lot more, for a very long time, about improving the lot of displaced Palestinians. The Palestinians are used as political pawns by Muslim states that oppose the establishment of the state of Israel.

 

[mcteethinator]

I have, and I'm not talking about extremists on the internet. I'm talking about perfectly sane people I've known in person.

Hm.

Frankly, if that were true, the Muslim states would have been doing a lot more, for a very long time, about improving the lot of displaced Palestinians. The Palestinians are used as political pawns by Muslim states that oppose the establishment of the state of Israel.

Jordan.

 

[Smoke]

Jordan.

Has treated the Palestinians better than any other Muslim nation, but has stringent restrictions against further Palestinian immigration, and still has over 300,000 Palestinians living in camps. Every Arab country other than Jordan has consistently treated Palestinians worse than foreigners of any other nationality, and continues to do so.

 

[mcteethinator]

Has treated the Palestinians better than any other Muslim nation, but has stringent restrictions against further Palestinian immigration, and still has over 300,000 Palestinians living in camps. Every Arab country other than Jordan has consistently treated Palestinians worse than foreigners of any other nationality, and continues to do so.

Most countries do not have the resources to cope with a massive flux of refugees.

 

[Comprehend]

Most countries do not have the resources to cope with a massive flux of refugees.

I hope you are kidding.

After more than 50 years NOBODY can find room for them? They couldn't be split up among 10 surrounding muslim nations?

I find it hard to believe that a place cannot be found for them. Isn't Saudi Arabia pulling in some nice profits? I know that Iraq and Saddam were paying $30,000 for every suicide bomber so there seems to be some resourses that could have been used from Iraq.

 

[Fluffy]

Being anti-Israel does not make you anti-semitic.

However, you can be prejudiced without being concious of it since prejudice can be passive as well as aggressive. For example, racism is not just refusing to hire people of a certain race in your company. It is also the state of mind that inhibits or prevents unbiased and consistent empathy regardless of race.

So if you find it more difficult to understand or have spent less time trying to understand the plight of the Jews yet find it readily easy to understand the plight of the Palestinians then a possible reason for this is prejudice and this can be presented unconciously without any feelings of hatred or dislike.

I find that in issues of extreme controversy, my emotions necessarily make me prejudiced. Its just not something I am able to stop. Denying that this happens would be immensely unproductive so I don't claim otherwise. I prefer to recognise this prejudice and work around it. This leads me to constantly reanalyse my positions regarding those issues. Consequently, I am far more suspicious of a person's claims that they are unprejudiced.

As far as this affects Israel/Palestine, I believe that the best policy is to analyse any statement as if it were prejudiced and see whether that makes a significant impact on how I should best respond to it.

Combatting prejudice is another subject entirely.

 

[capslockf9]

I hope you are kidding.

After more than 50 years NOBODY can find room for them? They couldn't be split up among 10 surrounding muslim nations?

I find it hard to believe that a place cannot be found for them. Isn't Saudi Arabia pulling in some nice profits? I know that Iraq and Saddam were paying $30,000 for every suicide bomber so there seems to be some resourses that could have been used from Iraq.

I hope you are kidding.

The room for them after 50 years is still palestine. The jew can be split up amoung christian nations .

 

[Smoke]

In Lebanon, the President *is* a Maronite so I don't quite see what you're getting at there. Assyrians are a religious minority group in a secular country. The Copts are a religious minority group in a non-secular country however, but

Maronites - Akin to saying that the indigenous people of Bolivia deserve their own nation-state when their president is indigenous.
Assyrians - Akin to saying religious minorities deserve their own independent nation state in the secular Christian-majority USA.
Copts - Akin to saying religious minorities deserve their own independent nation state in the non-secular Christian-majority UK.

Will we be giving California to the Mexicans soon too?

You're right about the Kurds however. Kurdistan etc.

I don't really believe all these groups should have their own independent states; as I said, I'm not convinced that religion and ethnicity are proper bases for independence. However, if the Palestinians must have an independent state, why not these groups? They're all ethnic as well as religious groups, and have all been persecuted and harassed to a greater or lesser extent by the Muslim majority.

 

[Smoke]

Most countries do not have the resources to cope with a massive flux of refugees.

It's not a question of resources; it's a question of will. All the Arab countries except Jordan have made a conscious effort not to absorb the Palestinians. There are now great-grandmothers who were born in refugee camps; they've had plenty of time, and they have the resources. Improving conditions for the Palestinians doesn't suit their purpose of using the Palestinians to pressure Israel.

 

[Smoke]

I hope you are kidding.

The room for them after 50 years is still palestine. The jew can be split up amoung christian nations .

That is exactly the attitude of the Arab League.

 

[capslockf9]

That is exactly the attitude of the Arab League.

According to the Bible, particularly in Genesis, the Land of Israel was promised as an everlasting possession to the descendants of the Jewish by "God". ....And in 1947 the europeans took that piece of land from the Palestinians. All based on mythology.

 

[Comprehend]

I hope you are kidding.

The room for them after 50 years is still palestine. The jew can be split up amoung christian nations .

The Jews aren't going anywhere.

Muslims profess to care about their brothers but have refused to take any of the palestinians when there is plenty of room.

You are ignoring my point, the Muslim neighbors refuse to look after their brothers.

 

[Comprehend]

According to the Bible, particularly in Genesis, the Land of Israel was promised as an everlasting possession to the descendants of the Jewish by "God". ....And in 1947 the europeans took that piece of land from the Palestinians. All based on mythology.

Actually, the Jews have held that land much longer than anyone else that is still a recognizeable people.

There is no such thing as a "palestinian" race or ethnicity. They are mostly Jordanians.

 

[capslockf9]

a recognizeable people.
The jew tribe originated in africa. Migration brought them to the arabian peninsula. These jew are dark-skin, brown-eyed, and black-hair.
A LIE has been perpetrated (via the Bible) because the new israeli jew is a white-skined european.
Do not lie to your parents. Do not lie to your superiors. And most important of all do not lie to yourself.

 

[Comprehend]

a recognizeable people.
The jew tribe originated in africa. Migration brought them to the arabian peninsula. These jew are dark-skin, brown-eyed, and black-hair.
A LIE has been perpetrated (via the Bible) because the new israeli jew is a white-skined european.
Do not lie to your parents. Do not lie to your superiors. And most important of all do not lie to yourself.

very nice anti-semitic garbage.

Go take your hatred somewhere else.

 

[lilithu]

a recognizeable people.
The jew tribe originated in africa. Migration brought them to the arabian peninsula. These jew are dark-skin, brown-eyed, and black-hair.
A LIE has been perpetrated (via the Bible) because the new israeli jew is a white-skined european.
Do not lie to your parents. Do not lie to your superiors. And most important of all do not lie to yourself.

Someone please tell me that this person is a troll. :cover:

 

[mcteethinator]

I don't really believe all these groups should have their own independent states; as I said, I'm not convinced that religion and ethnicity are proper bases for independence. However, if the Palestinians must have an independent state, why not these groups? They're all ethnic as well as religious groups, and have all been persecuted and harassed to a greater or lesser extent by the Muslim majority.

I don't believe necessarily Palestinians need an independent state. Hell, one nation, two cultures seemed fine to me. I think the demands of the Students for Justice in Palestine group express my sentiments well enough "the full decolonization of all illegally held Palestinian lands, the end of the Israeli occupation of the Gaza Strip, and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem; the implementation of the right of return and repatriation of all Palestinian refugees to their original homes and properties".

So if you find it more difficult to understand or have spent less time trying to understand the plight of the Jews yet find it readily easy to understand the plight of the Palestinians then a possible reason for this is prejudice and this can be presented unconciously without any feelings of hatred or dislike.

And vice-versa. A lot of pro-Israel people are quick to point out the suffering on the Israeli side, but not so quick to point out the Palestinian side. Some people even say the Palestinians deserve it.

I myself understand the nationalism, the "NEVER AGAIN" mentality of the Jewish people, and I sympathize with that. The Holocaust was one of the biggest horrors of all history.

That being said, in this day and age the Israelis are the ones with the tanks.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

That being said, in this day and age the Israelis are the ones with the tanks.

You too would do well to read the history of 1967 ...