Does God exist?

[Autodidact]

Oh. Well there are ways you can come to this knowledge, but they would require doing things that may make you look foolish, like talking to someone who may not be there. Also, you would have to overcome the fear that if it turns out that God does exist, you may have to change some things in your life, great or small. Also, you might have to admit to yourself that you were wrong, which can be hard.

Well, like most people, I started out assuming that God does exist, so neither of the last two would have applied. I'm not worried about looking foolish, but about being wrong.

Aside from the circular logic, it seems to me that because of the way human brains work, your approach is much more likely to yield a false answer than a true one, especially for someone who, like me, was raised to be religious. It's very likely that my brain would trick me into believing that "God" was answering me, when it was actually the god-module my upbringing implanted in my brain, combined with my evolutionary predisposition to accept such ideas as real and explanatory. So that seems like a really bad way to go about it to me.

 

[MW0082]

Oh. Well there are ways you can come to this knowledge, but they would require doing things that may make you look foolish, like talking to someone who may not be there. Also, you would have to overcome the fear that if it turns out that God does exist, you may have to change some things in your life, great or small. Also, you might have to admit to yourself that you were wrong, which can be hard.

Speaking to someone who is not there (god) does not mean it exists. it means you're talking to yourself, which may be helpful I don't know...

I have absolutely no fear of there being a god. if there is and I respect them, great more power to them. yet all the gods I come across do not speak to me. Meaning I don't feel a connection to anything else out there. i don't feel I am made in someone elses image, and I a gay man who had a horrible childhood, will not beleive someone supposedly cares for me but puts me through hell to beleive that...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What's wrong with circles?

That depends; do you want to get anywhere?

 

[tomato1236]

So are you saying that prayer is a source of knowledge about God?

Yes. I am.

 

[Onkara]

That depends; do you want to get anywhere?

No, because this is already "God".


Where do think there is to go?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That's exactly what it is. You're acting without perfect knowledge. But what do you have to lose? If He isn't there, then nothing happens.

Why would you assume that? People's minds play tricks on them all the time. Why would we assume that any effect of prayer must have come from God?

It's not like the Gods of logic and evidence will smite you for trying. If He is there, well you've just learned something pretty important. Not trying because it seems logically fallacious to do so sounds a lot to me like reasoning your way out of doing the one thing you can do to find out if God exists. And what would be someone's motive for trying not to find out?

In all seriousness, I really don't see how prayer has any relevance to the question of whether God exists.

And presumably, any god that's capable of speaking to someone when they're praying is capable of speaking to them when they're not.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes. I am.

Okay... why? And what sort of knowledge?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, because this is already "God".


Where do think there is to go?

A well-supported conclusion, hopefully. And we can't get there if our arguments are circular.

 

[tomato1236]

Speaking to someone who is not there (god) does not mean it exists. it means you're talking to yourself, which may be helpful I don't know...

Prayer doesn't make God exist. The idea is that if He speaks to you, this is a way to know He exists, and always existed independent of your belief or lack thereof.

I have absolutely no fear of there being a god. if there is and I respect them, great more power to them. yet all the gods I come across do not speak to me. Meaning I don't feel a connection to anything else out there. i don't feel I am made in someone elses image, and I a gay man who had a horrible childhood, will not beleive someone supposedly cares for me but puts me through hell to beleive that...

Fair enough. I'm sorry you had bad experiences as a kid, and with religious people. We all arrive at our beliefs based on our experience, and I don't diminish your position.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Prayer doesn't make God exist. The idea is that if He speaks to you, this is a way to know He exists, and always existed independent of your belief or lack thereof.

What do you mean by "if He speaks to you"? Are you talking about an actual voice? An intuitive feeling? Some physical sign that you take as a response? Something else?

 

[Autodidact]

Yes. I am.

Well, have you tried praying to all the Gods you don't believe in?

What religion was your family of origin? Your community?

 

[tomato1236]

Why would you assume that? People's minds play tricks on them all the time. Why would we assume that any effect of prayer must have come from God?

If prayer had an affect, what affect could it have other than one from God? Self-delusion?

In all seriousness, I really don't see how prayer has any relevance to the question of whether God exists.

I'm sorry to hear that. This statement actually boggled my mind. It's still boggling. I'm trying to stop the boggle.

And presumably, any god that's capable of speaking to someone when they're praying is capable of speaking to them when they're not.

I absolutely agree. God can talk to people who haven't prayed.

 

[The_Evelyonian]

What's wrong with circles?

"The Bible is the word of God."
"How do you know?"
"Because the Bible says so."
"But why believe the Bible?"
"Because the Bible is infallible."
"How do you know?"
"Because the Bible is the word of God."

Continue ad infinitum.

 

[tomato1236]

What do you mean by "if He speaks to you"? Are you talking about an actual voice? An intuitive feeling? Some physical sign that you take as a response? Something else?

Sure. Any of the above.

 

[Autodidact]

Prayer doesn't make God exist. The idea is that if He speaks to you, this is a way to know He exists, and always existed independent of your belief or lack thereof.

One problem with this approach is that unless you believe you're unique, then all the other Gods that speak to other people when they pray must also exist.

Otherwise you're committing the second most popular theist fallacy, special pleading.

Fair enough. I'm sorry you had bad experiences as a kid, and with religious people. We all arrive at our beliefs based on our experience, and I don't diminish your position.

However, we can take steps to reduce the effects of our limited experiences, and increase the role that reason and evidence have in our conclusions.

 

[Onkara]

"The Bible is the word of God."
"How do you know?"
"Because the Bible says so."
"But why believe the Bible?"
"Because the Bible is infallible."
"How do you know?"
"Because the Bible is the word of God."

Continue ad infinitum.

Lol I like this example.
I promise not to use scripture.

 

[Breathe]

"The Bible is the word of God."
"How do you know?"
"Because the Bible says so."
"But why believe the Bible?"
"Because the Bible is infallible."
"How do you know?"
"Because the Bible is the word of God."

Continue ad infinitum.

Better shown as a picture!

 

[Autodidact]

If prayer had an affect, what affect could it have other than one from God? Self-delusion?

Pretty much. If you do much reading about brain development, created memory, and how we perceive reality, I think it becomes clear that this effect is likely when you combine:
childhood indoctrination +
temporal lobe stimulation.

I'm sorry to hear that. This statement actually boggled my mind. It's still boggling. I'm trying to stop the boggle.

I generally try to use reasoning and evidence to base my conclusions on, not assuming what I'm trying to figure out.

 

[The_Evelyonian]

Better shown as a picture!

Nice

 

[tomato1236]

Well, have you tried praying to all the Gods you don't believe in?

What religion was your family of origin? Your community?

My family is the same religion I am. The community I was raised in was mostly non-religious (Washington State).

Though I was taught what I now believe, I went through a conversion process in my teenage years independent of any prodding. I had to know for myself. It's not a religion that is easy to casually adhere to. I would soon have to spend 2 years of my young life teaching the stuff, putting off (scary) dating and college and going far from my family and home. So I see your point, but I want you to know that I exercised my faith in prayer to the same degree that a non-believer would have to to learn if God is there. And I learned. And I've continued to pray as a method for validating things I learn from religious docrines to the direction I should go with my secular education to whether to marry my wife, to little things like should I make this large purchase, etc.

I played a lot of chess growing up. If I had never made the first move in my first game for fear that I might make the wrong one, or might lose the game, I never would have gotten great at it. I lost thousands of games on my way to being the best. Do I regret playing because I lost sometimes? No. I put myself in the vulnerable position of being the worst player in the club. Learning from others where I could, and most importantly gaining experience. I think taking stabs in the dark is a terrific way to eventually find what works, and start winning games.