Does God exist?

[tomato1236]

O.K., I will pray with utter sincerity and attention. Can we agree in advance that whatever response I get or don't get should be evidence for or against the existence of God?

Well no. It won't be evidence to me. I don't know the affairs of your heart. It would be easy for me to assume you didn't pray sincerely, etc., or that you didn't really want to know, bla bla bla, because I don't know what's in you. But you do. So if you don't get an answer, and you're satisfied with your effort, then I suppose you could consider that evidence. I didn't get my answer my first time asking. Another reason I could discount your results. It's really up to you.

I'll have you know that you didn't pray in time. I didn't get Boardwalk.

 

[Falvlun]

O.K., I will pray with utter sincerity and attention. Can we agree in advance that whatever response I get or don't get should be evidence for or against the existence of God?

Come on, Auto. You should know better than that. If God doesn't answer, it's because you weren't being sincere enough. Or maybe it wasn't God's will to answer you at that time.

 

[tomato1236]

Come on, Auto. You should know better than that. If God doesn't answer, it's because you weren't being sincere enough. Or maybe it wasn't God's will to answer you at that time.

True.

 

[Autodidact]

Well no. It won't be evidence to me. I don't know the affairs of your heart. It would be easy for me to assume you didn't pray sincerely, etc., or that you didn't really want to know, bla bla bla, because I don't know what's in you. But you do. So if you don't get an answer, and you're satisfied with your effort, then I suppose you could consider that evidence. I didn't get my answer my first time asking. Another reason I could discount your results. It's really up to you.

I'll have you know that you didn't pray in time. I didn't get Boardwalk.

So if God answers, it's evidence that He exists, but if He doesn't, it's not evidence that He doesn't exist? Do I have to point out the problem with your methodology or is it glaringly obvious?

I haven't prayed yet; I was waiting for you to reveal whether you sincerely endorse this method. Apparently you only endorse it if it gives the results you want. FAIL.

Had you said yes, I would have prayed with all the sincerity of which I am capable, in the hopes we would learn something from it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Oh, well I was just answering the questions about how prayer works, as a valid means of gaining knowledge. I believe you can gain knowledge about stuff through emotional responses, and I believe that applies to prayer, too. I don't think it's my job to convert you to anything. If you're truly looking for an answer to "Does God exist", this is the only way I know how to find it.

See... I'm more interested in how you know that it's a way to find the answer at all.

And I think that while emotional responses can be illuminating, they mainly tell us about ourselves, not the external world.

I do believe that if you pray, you do risk being converted, so you might want to stay away from it.

Hey - if you can convince me that it's a valid source of knowledge, I might change my mind about it.

 

[Autodidact]

True.

tomato: do you see what you're saying here? You're saying, "I, tomato, am a great big liar-head. I have decided in advance only to consider the result if it confirms my pre-existing conclusion. I actually have no faith in my prescribed method at all, and will only consider it if it gives the answer I want."

btw, would you please respond to my posts about early religious training? Thanks.

 

[tomato1236]

So if God answers, it's evidence that He exists, but if He doesn't, it's not evidence that He doesn't exist? Do I have to point out the problem with your methodology or is it glaringly obvious?

I haven't prayed yet; I was waiting for you to reveal whether you sincerely endorse this method. Apparently you only endorse it if it gives the results you want. FAIL.

Had you said yes, I would have prayed with all the sincerity of which I am capable, in the hopes we would learn something from it.

My point was that your prayer, and the results thereof have nothing to do with me. For you, yes, like I said, if you're satisfied with how you approached it and you don't get an answer, you can take that as evidence.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

tomato: do you see what you're saying here? You're saying, "I, tomato, am a great big liar-head. I have decided in advance only to consider the result if it confirms my pre-existing conclusion. I actually have no faith in my prescribed method at all, and will only consider it if it gives the answer I want."

I don't think it says that at all. Consider the exercise in a more general way:

His experience is one sample set; your experience is another sample set. Both will have some level of error (though how much error we don't know yet) between them and reality. A small sample set is generally going to have poor correlation with the actual population of the thing being tested.

I mean, if you were an ecologist trying to figure out the wild population of some animal, you wouldn't conclude that they're extinct just because you didn't find them on your first look. Maybe more searching will uncover some. Maybe you're looking in the wrong place.

Of course, there is a certain limit when, after looking in enough place enough times, it's reasonable to conclude that the animal really is extinct.

 

[tomato1236]

This is the single most common life pattern I have encountered among religionists. 9/10 adhere to the religion they were raised in as children, but all assert that these two facts are independent of each other. Does that seem very likely to you? That by sheer coincidence you just happened to strike it lucky and get brainwashed into the one religion that is also correct? And just too bad for all those people who were raised in all those other religions that just happen to be wrong?

The most common pattern is:
1. Raised in religion X by parents who practice religion X.
2. Doubt, question or stray from religion X as teen or young adult.
3. Return to religion X.

Do you honestly believe that had you been raised Muslim in Peshawar you'd be Mormon today? Had you followed your same methodology?

O.K., well, following your own approach, as a teen/young adult, did you pray to a lot of other Gods? Have you ever prayed to Allah?

Oh. I missed this post. I've answered this exact question from you in a thread before. And um, yes, I consider myself lucky.

 

[MurphtheSurf]

This thread is to debate the question of the existence of God.
I hope we can have reasoned, civilized conversation about this important issue.

So:
Does God exist?

Jehovah does exist, yes. Can I prove it to you atheists? Probably not ever, but I'm satisfied.

 

[dust1n]

God is a number we cannot count to...

Or on, for that matter.

 

[Autodidact]

My point was that your prayer, and the results thereof have nothing to do with me. For you, yes, like I said, if you're satisfied with how you approached it and you don't get an answer, you can take that as evidence.

Well God either exists or not, right? If prayer is evidence, isn't it evidence regardless of who prays?

 

[Willamena]

Yes, but that's not what the thread is about. The thread is about how we can figure out whether what you believe is true or not.

Of course, that couldn't be stated in the OP.

Well, for this (new) topic, first we would have to consider the question of whether existence is true.

 

[Autodidact]

I don't think it says that at all. Consider the exercise in a more general way:

His experience is one sample set; your experience is another sample set. Both will have some level of error (though how much error we don't know yet) between them and reality. A small sample set is generally going to have poor correlation with the actual population of the thing being tested.

I mean, if you were an ecologist trying to figure out the wild population of some animal, you wouldn't conclude that they're extinct just because you didn't find them on your first look. Maybe more searching will uncover some. Maybe you're looking in the wrong place.

Of course, there is a certain limit when, after looking in enough place enough times, it's reasonable to conclude that the animal really is extinct.

Well it may not be dispositive, but it's still evidence, no?

 

[Willamena]

What's wrong with circles?

They're evil.

Witches stand in them.

 

[tomato1236]

Well God either exists or not, right? If prayer is evidence, isn't it evidence regardless of who prays?

If it were, you would be converted by my conversion, no? I have received evidence of God through my effort to learn of him and prayers to him. That's great for me, but why isn't every person I tell amazed by that evidence? Each person has to discover it themselves. It's faith. I'm not carrying a sign from God around everywhere I go. Even if I were, many would still not believe. Nobody will make you believe against your will. It doesn't work like that.

 

[tomato1236]

You still haven't prayed, huh.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well it may not be dispositive, but it's still evidence, no?

Sure - one data point is evidence, but it's not much to go on.

 

[Autodidact]

If it were, you would be converted by my conversion, no? I have received evidence of God through my effort to learn of him and prayers to him. That's great for me, but why isn't every person I tell amazed by that evidence? Each person has to discover it themselves. It's faith. I'm not carrying a sign from God around everywhere I go. Even if I were, many would still not believe. Nobody will make you believe against your will. It doesn't work like that.

I think it's evidence, but not dispositive evidence. I believe there is a more reasonable explanation for your result, and your answers to the questions give us some hints of what that is. I find it very telling that the God that you believe "answered your prayer" was the God that your parents created in your brain before you had the ability to reason. This is almost always the case.

In general, I'm much more impressed by evidence that everyone can see or hear. Otherwise I would have to pay a lot of attention to the being who talk to schizophrenics. Do you hold these experiences in high regard?

Also, you did not answer the question about what form the answer comes in--a feeling, a voice, an action--what?

And you never told us whether you prayed to Allah, let alone Krishna and Kuan-Yin.

Which is it, faith, or evidence?

How do you decide what God to have faith in, the one you happened to be inculcated with as a small child?

 

[Autodidact]

To be more clear and specific, tomato, I have gathered a lot of evidence from a lot of people who had experiences similar to yours, and I have tried to come up with the best explanation for them. I have also read what research is out there about it. Of particular interest is the research about creating false memory, and about religious experiences as associated with temporal lobe epilepsy and stimulation and how it relates to childhood religious training.

There seems to be a simpler and more coherent explanation than a quirky, inconsistent God who only appears to tomato and other Mormons.