Does God exist?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If prayer had an affect, what affect could it have other than one from God? Self-delusion?

Sure. Or just an honest mis-perception. I know that I've seen and heard things that just ended up being a trick of the light or a rustle of the wind; haven't you?

Or... maybe it's from Satan. Or a tree spirit. Or some other entity from beyond the pale. If we're allowing for the existence of supernatural entities like God, then we can't really exclude these other possibilities, can we?

I'm sorry to hear that. This statement actually boggled my mind. It's still boggling. I'm trying to stop the boggle.

I don't see why that would be. Look at the possibilities:

Say a person's prayer works:
- maybe it was God
- maybe it was something else
- maybe it was all in the person's head

Say a person's prayer doesn't work:
- maybe God exists but just didn't answer it
- maybe God answered it, but the person didn't realize
- maybe God doesn't exist at all

Before prayer, you might think that maybe God exists and maybe He doesn't. After prayer, whatever happens, you're still left with the possibility that God might exist or He might not. You've added no knowledge.

I absolutely agree. God can talk to people who haven't prayed.

So why not consider a lifetime of not hearing God despite not praying as evidence?

Sure. Any of the above.

And these impart knowledge to you? In what way?

 

[MW0082]

Prayer doesn't make God exist. The idea is that if He speaks to you, this is a way to know He exists, and always existed independent of your belief or lack thereof.



Fair enough. I'm sorry you had bad experiences as a kid, and with religious people. We all arrive at our beliefs based on our experience, and I don't diminish your position.

Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger

 

[Autodidact]

My family is the same religion I am. The community I was raised in was mostly non-religious (Washington State).

Though I was taught what I now believe, I went through a conversion process in my teenage years independent of any prodding. I had to know for myself. It's not a religion that is easy to casually adhere to. I would soon have to spend 2 years of my young life teaching the stuff, putting off (scary) dating and college and going far from my family and hom. So I see your point, but I want you to know that I exercised my faith in prayer to the same degree that a non-believer would have to to learn if God is there. And I learned. And I've continued to pray as a method for validating things I learn from religious docrines to the direction I should go with my secular education to whether to marry my wife, to little things like should I make this large purchase, etc.

I played a lot of chess growing up. If I had never made the first move in my first game for fear that I might make the wrong one, or might lose the game, I never would have gotten great at it. I lost thousands of games on my way to being the best. Do I regret playing because I lost sometimes? No. I put myself in the vulnerable position of being the worst player in the club. Learning from others where I could, and most importantly gaining experience. I think taking stabs in the dark is a terrific way to eventually find what works, and start winning games.

This is the single most common life pattern I have encountered among religionists. 9/10 adhere to the religion they were raised in as children, but all assert that these two facts are independent of each other. Does that seem very likely to you? That by sheer coincidence you just happened to strike it lucky and get brainwashed into the one religion that is also correct? And just too bad for all those people who were raised in all those other religions that just happen to be wrong?

The most common pattern is:
1. Raised in religion X by parents who practice religion X.
2. Doubt, question or stray from religion X as teen or young adult.
3. Return to religion X.

Do you honestly believe that had you been raised Muslim in Peshawar you'd be Mormon today? Had you followed your same methodology?

O.K., well, following your own approach, as a teen/young adult, did you pray to a lot of other Gods? Have you ever prayed to Allah?

 

[tomato1236]

Sure. Or just an honest mis-perception. I know that I've seen and heard things that just ended up being a trick of the light or a rustle of the wind; haven't you?

Or... maybe it's from Satan. Or a tree spirit. Or some other entity from beyond the pale. If we're allowing for the existence of supernatural entities like God, then we can't really exclude these other possibilities, can we?


I don't see why that would be. Look at the possibilities:

Say a person's prayer works:
- maybe it was God
- maybe it was something else
- maybe it was all in the person's head

Say a person's prayer doesn't work:
- maybe God exists but just didn't answer it
- maybe God answered it, but the person didn't realize
- maybe God doesn't exist at all

Before prayer, you might think that maybe God exists and maybe He doesn't. After prayer, whatever happens, you're still left with the possibility that God might exist or He might not. You've added no knowledge.


So why not consider a lifetime of not hearing God despite not praying as evidence?


And these impart knowledge to you? In what way?

Heh heh. If I solve all of these problems, are you going to pray?

 

[Autodidact]

Heh heh. If I solve all of these problems, are you going to pray?

Heck, I'll pray right now--would you like me to? Anything in particular you want me to ask?

 

[tomato1236]

I'm going to get some lunch. Good luck all in your honest searches for the existence of God.

 

[tomato1236]

Heck, I'll pray right now--would you like me to? Anything in particular you want me to ask?

Oh, don't pray on my behalf, I can do it myself. If you have something to pray about, pray.

 

[tomato1236]

McDonald's monopoly today. Hopefully I'll get Boardwalk.

 

[Autodidact]

Oh, don't pray on my behalf, I can do it myself. If you have something to pray about, pray.

Not on your behalf, on mine. Anything special I should pray? Or just ask God whether He exists?

 

[Autodidact]

McDonald's monopoly today. Hopefully I'll get Boardwalk.

You could try praying. Bada-bing.

 

[MW0082]

McDonald's monopoly today. Hopefully I'll get Boardwalk.

good luck!!!

 

[tomato1236]

Not on your behalf, on mine. Anything special I should pray? Or just ask God whether He exists?

Well, if that's what you want to find out, yes. You don't have to say anything fancy. You don't have to pray in latin or anything. It certainly will help if you're sincere. Imagine calling your parents and pretending to care how they're doing when they can tell the intent of your heart.

 

[tomato1236]

You could try praying. Bada-bing.

No wait. On second thought, add this to your prayer when you're asking God if he exists. Maybe me getting Boardwalk will be the answer.

 

[The_Evelyonian]

Oh, don't pray on my behalf, I can do it myself. If you have something to pray about, pray.

One thing I've noticed about prayer is that people tend to pray for things that will probably happen anyway. If things turn out good, then obviously god answered their prayers. If things turn out not so good, then it must have been something else.

"I have a big exam coming up today so I spent all night last night studying and then, this morning, I prayed that god would help me pass."

I pass the exam. - "See, God answered my prayer!"

I don't pass the exam. - "Well, I should have studied harder."

Or, to look at it another way:

1) Grandma was sick.
2) I prayed to Jesus to make Grandma better.
3) The Doctors gave Grandma this nasty medicine and her sickness went away.
4) See, Jesus answered my prayer.

 

[tomato1236]

One thing I've noticed about prayer is that people tend to pray for things that will probably happen anyway. If things turn out good, then obviously god answered their prayers. If things turn out not so good, then it must have been something else.

"I have a big exam coming up today so I spent all night last night studying and then, this morning, I prayed that god would help me pass."

I pass the exam. - "See, God answered my prayer!"

I don't pass the exam. - "Well, I should have studied harder."

Or, to look at it another way:

1) Grandma was sick.
2) I prayed to Jesus to make Grandma better.
3) The Doctors gave Grandma this nasty medicine and her sickness went away.
4) See, Jesus answered my prayer.

You're right. I'm going to win Boardwalk anyway.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Heh heh. If I solve all of these problems, are you going to pray?

In all honesty, probably not. Not to see whether it's effective, anyhow. I see prayer as something like acupuncture: a habit that many people consider beneficial, but in actuality is generally benign and occasionally quite harmful.

If it really works, it'll have evidence that we can see without actually engaging in it ourselves.

Frankly, I think that what you're doing is trying to set up a situation where I might be convinced of something based on an emotional response instead of real evidence or knowledge.

 

[tomato1236]

In all honesty, probably not. Not to see whether it's effective, anyhow. I see prayer as something like acupuncture: a habit that many people consider beneficial, but in actuality is generally benign and occasionally quite harmful.

If it really works, it'll have evidence that we can see without actually engaging in it ourselves.

Frankly, I think that what you're doing is trying to set up a situation where I might be convinced of something based on an emotional response instead of real evidence or knowledge.

Heaven forbid.

 

[Autodidact]

Well, if that's what you want to find out, yes. You don't have to say anything fancy. You don't have to pray in latin or anything. It certainly will help if you're sincere. Imagine calling your parents and pretending to care how they're doing when they can tell the intent of your heart.

O.K., I will pray with utter sincerity and attention. Can we agree in advance that whatever response I get or don't get should be evidence for or against the existence of God?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Heaven forbid.

Well, what's this about for you? Demonstrating that prayer is a valid form of knowledge, or winning a convert? You can do the former without me praying, and I'm not interested in the latter.

 

[tomato1236]

Well, what's this about for you? Demonstrating that prayer is a valid form of knowledge, or winning a convert? You can do the former without me praying, and I'm not interested in the latter.

Oh, well I was just answering the questions about how prayer works, as a valid means of gaining knowledge. I believe you can gain knowledge about stuff through emotional responses, and I believe that applies to prayer, too. I don't think it's my job to convert you to anything. If you're truly looking for an answer to "Does God exist", this is the only way I know how to find it. I do believe that if you pray, you do risk being converted, so you might want to stay away from it.