does god exist

[9-10ths_Penguin]

what do you mean evolutionary processes? then why is it that only men have one less ribb and women don't. don't say its because of chance and it just happened.

Umm... men and women have the same number of ribs. You can find more detailed discussion here.

From the links on that page:

Normal female rib cage - 12 ribs: link
Normal male rib cage - 12 ribs: link

BTW: when you or anyone else claims that well-supported scientific knowledge like the theory of evolution is false, that makes me (and likely many others) automatically skeptical of what you tell us. Why should I accept your word about the existence of god, the truth of Islam, or other matters where your claims aren't well-supported by evidence when I see that on the matters where there is good evidential support for me to confirm or deny what you say, you're clearly wrong?

 

[Magic Man]

first of all i said "monkey crap" because you insulted me and my brothers and sisters of Islam by saying that all humans evolved from monkeys. if you or anyone elses believes that then thats fine by me but do not call my great great grandparents and my ancestors monkeys because that is an offence to all muslims ok.
know heres your proof you calimed that you have been created from monkeys through evolution.

No one called your ancestors monkeys. Humans are apes. You can't get away from that. Somewhere along the line we split off from other ape species to become our own species. If you don't believe in evolution, that's your call, but we're not calling you or your family monkeys and you'd have to try pretty hard to be insulted by evolution.

then tell me this
1) who created the monkeys
2) and heres something else if you know about the creation of prophet Adem (as) the father of all humans created by Allah then you will also know that men have one less ribb on either the right or left side (not very sure on which side) because the mother of all humans and the wife of prophet Adem (as) was created form the ribb of her husband prophet Adem (as) and if you don't beleive me then go to a hospital and get some x-ray images of a man and a woman and then you will see

1) As has been said before, random chance/unintelligent forces probably created the monkeys. Aside from that, it could have been Yahweh or any of the other hundreds or thousands of god ideas out there.
2) What are you trying to prove here?

 

[Magic Man]

don't say its because of chance and it just happened.

and one last thing how did bacteria and slime turn into man don't say evolution again

First, punctuation is helpful. Maybe try some capital letters, too. It makes your posts a lot more credible and a lot easier to decipher.

Now, I could do the same thing to you. What created the universe? And don't say Allah. It's not much of a debate if you don't even want the other person to say an answer because it disagrees with what you believe. The answers to your questions are evolution and unintelligent forces like nuclear fusion and fission among others. If you don't want to hear those answers, then a debate forum probably isn't the best place for you.

 

[Runewolf1973]

There can never be any true Knowing in that God exists. It can only ever be a belief. In ALL knowing there is truth, it is only in our perception of it wherein lies the flaws. We can not know ALL. But that being said, considering before humans existed or any other Things with the sense and capacity to Know sound, or SEE light, does that mean that sound and light did not exist? If it did, then for what purpose? I believe that it is something only the ALL Knowing can possibly Know. But that is just my personal belief.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

There can never be any true Knowing in that God exists. It can only ever be a belief.

And it would be a baseless belief, if the existence of God can never be truly known.

 

[Runewolf1973]

And it would be a baseless belief, if the existence of God can never be truly known.

I guess that's why they say that in truth, it is not a belief, it is merely a "Knowing".

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I guess that's why they say that in truth, it is not a belief, it is merely a "Knowing".

Now you're contradicting yourself:

There can never be any true Knowing in that God exists.

If a belief is baseless, that doesn't stop it from being a belief.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Now you're contradicting yourself:



If a belief is baseless, that doesn't stop it from being a belief.

When we achieve "stillness of mind" is when we achieve "knowing". Our false sense of "knowing" is where we find our faults.

 

[autonomous1one1]

Greetings Darkendless. May it respectively be submitted that there is concrete evidence mentioned in this thread that is still on the table - it has not been answered. This evidence is the example of beings that have awakened and the consistency of their stated perspectives offering non-dualism and oneness with God. (See posts #263, #138, #97 and #160.)

Regards,
a..1

Im sorry but if you could provide concrete evidence atheism would have died by now, however you cant. What you think evidence is will be different to what i think evidence is.

But of course that in no way provides a discussion to win a debate (and my apology is offered for bringing this out).

Any evidence of God that has ever been presented needs the person who asked for it to believe, to have faith, and to take a step so to speak. ....

May a different opinion be offered that one need only have an open mind and seek understanding.

..... There does, however, seem to be a certain kind of experience or experiencing that occurs when the subject/object division in perception ceases to exist and which is sometimes called an experience of deity.

Exactly, Sunstone! This unique experience which has non-dual wisdom is the evidence referred in my posts.

Let me ask 9-10ths_Penguin, mball1297, BalanceFx, Kai, Darkendless, or Autodidact if anyone would do me the honor to discuss my ten points previously posted (as noted above in this post) so that we may see exactly where our difference of opinion on evidence lies?

Regards,
a..1

 

[Rolling_Stone]

Do gods exist? I've never come across any compelling evidence to ascribe ontological existence to deities. There does, however, seem to be a certain kind of experience or experiencing that occurs when the subject/object division in perception ceases to exist and which is sometimes called an experience of deity.

As a..1 said, "Exactly!"

Properly understood, an argument is not an attempt to persuade, but rather an attempt to establish a rational ground for one's belief. Asked specifically for positive arguments for disbelief in God, responses goes something like this:

1. The burden of proof is on the other side.
2. Entities shouldn’t be multiplied beyond necessity.
3. Scientific naturalism is a sufficient explanation.
4. There is no need to posit God since there are natural explanations for why people historically evolved belief in God.
5. Philosophically, the problem of evil has to be dealt with to the critic's satisfaction.
6. Since there is no positive evidence for God’s existence, there is no rational reason to believe in whatever God or gods you may believe in.
7. One might as well believe in the flying spaghetti monster since no on can disprove its existence, either.

All of this sounds perfectly logical, but they deal with only the lack of evidence coming to us through the physical senses—but the absence of physical evidence is not evidence of absence. Moreover, the range of human experience is not limited to the objective world or to things of which we’re consciously aware.

a...1, I don't think you will any of those you mentioned to discuss, let alone honor, the points you listed.

 

[Storm]

autonomous, would you mind reposting the points you want addressed?

 

[autonomous1one1]

As a..1 said, "Exactly!"

......a...1, I don't think you will any of those you mentioned to discuss, let alone honor, the points you listed.

Perhaps you are right, my view is ignored often.

.....Now that the discussions on the Bible, faith, and rational 'proofs' of God have slowed, permit me to offer a different basis for concluding God is - evidence one can find that there is God comes from one's own personal experience and is found within. There is one particularly significant experience for evidence and once experienced can be proof for one's own self. That experience might be expressed as awakening and has been repeated and documented many times throughout history. It is more readily available to us today than ever before.

Here are ten points posted in other threads about this experience:
Quote:
Originally Posted by autonomous1one1
....
1)there is an experience that some interpret as an 'awakening'
2)there are many examples documented and described throughout history
3)there is some consistency of characteristics among the 'awakened' persons
4)these characteristics result from the being that has believed and interpreted the experience and been transformed by it
5)if the experience is actually real as believed, the 'awakening' is of immense importance (e.g.'s, realization of eternal life, loss of fear, knowing a higher reality, etc.)
6)the experience is evidence in favor of God
7) Even one example of awakening that proved to be true would be significant.
8) Case studies of potentially awakened beings can be conducted to 'learn from others' and help collect evidence for our own experiment. (Literature research is essential in scientific investigation. )
9) One should verify and validate the findings of others through one's own study and experimentation.
10)The founders of religion each have pointed us in the same direction to begin our experiment. (See post #42 in thread Pitch your religion!) Yes, we must use ourselves in the experiment to 'know' for sure.:angel2:.

autonomous, would you mind reposting the points you want addressed?

Greetings Storm. The points are one through ten given in the list above. They are given in post #97 (pg. 10) with additional explanatory information in #263 (pg. 27) and #342 (pg. 35).

 

[Storm]

Well, while I agree with you that such things are evidence, I don't think they're compelling evidence, much less proof.

 

[autonomous1one1]

Well, while I agree with you that such things are evidence, I don't think they're compelling evidence, much less proof.

Yes, they definitely are not meant to be proof. One must proceed with number 10 and find proof for themself. My axiom is don't take my word or anyone else's word for it, experience it for yourself. However, all point 1-10 are irrefutable except 6 and 10 in my view.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

Well, while I agree with you that such things are evidence, I don't think they're compelling evidence, much less proof.

It's certainly compelling for the experiencer.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes, they definitely are not meant to be proof. One must proceed with number 10 and find proof for themself. My axiom is don't take my word or anyone else's word for it, experience it for yourself. However, all point 1-10 are irrefutable except 6 and 10 in my view.

What do you see as the characteristics you refer to in point 3?

 

[Runewolf1973]

I would like to speak on behalf of Atheism.
It hold's strong validity. It is not ALL knowledge, but is it nonetheless part of it. All things have truth, we just need to have the "stillness of mind" to realize it.
The atheists need no God or belief to know that they here and that they exist. To an atheist, that is all they Need to know. They believe in what is HERE NOW, but in "stillness of mind" you realize that That is all anything really is. Have you ever blacked out or been knocked unconscious? Do you remember how long you were blacked out for? When we lose that mind, time for us does not exist. You wake up feeling like you've lost not even a second. That in itself is sort of an unintentional "stillness of mind" of sorts that we have all experienced. Have you ever experienced the feeling of deja vu? Perhaps that's another form of "stillness of mind". When you were completely unconscious did you need to believe in God? Did the thought even cross your mind? Time is relevant only to those who need it. A tree or an animal neither knows nor do they need to know time, they are in the HERE NOW. An animal does not need a belief in God to exist, they merely exist. The need to believe in anything is something concocted in our minds by our own thinking that we "need" to know EVERYTHING. In "stillness of mind" we realize that we really need to know nothing in order to have everything become known to us. I don't need to believe in God to know that I exist. I know there is more out there than just myself as well. For an animal that has that "stillness of mind" any belief or notions of God become irrelevant. It just exists and survives not really needing to know.....WHY? They are merely content in their own existence, even if they don't even know what that "existence" is. There will always be more out there than what we know. In "stillness of mind" it is in the epiphany or realization of accepting simply that we ARE part of EVERYTHING. Nothing more. All that exists is ONE. When you take matter and energy down to it's core and simplest state of being comprised of basically everything that exists, we find that it is ALL the same. All energy and all forms of energy are simply, Energy. There is no "void" in space, we only perceive it as that. The Sun and the Moon affect us because we are ultimately the same and connected. It is ALL energy. Even though we retain our separateness and uniqueness, we are still connected. We are affected by the Sun and in some unknown way we affect it. We are only part of that something which is bigger than us. Ever wonder why so many different people claim to be Cleopatra or Napoleon, or another famous person in a past life? Because we ARE all ONE and the SAME. Different, yet the same. Our energy is their energy. Our essence is their essence. What made THEM is what makes US. Pure energy, ALL the same. Energy itself seems to have a "memory". Why? Then in all of THIS, do we really Need a God? I Don't think so. All we need is the"Stillness of Mind" to know we are ONE.

Maybe some of this did not make any sense at all, but in My "stillness of mind" it really does not matter. I AM PART OF ALL. The believing and the disbelieving, the knowing and the unknowing. It makes no difference, it's all in how your mind perceives it.

 

[Autodidact]

dear Autodidact
if you have understood what i have written then this is what you would know
im not saying that pain doesn't exist even though we canot see it or describe it we know it exists because we can feel it. just as Allah exists we cannot see Him because He hasn't made himself visible to us but we can feel Him through his power and through His ruling of the earth and the skye for He is the the greates Ruler. you can see how he makes the day into night and the night into day you can see that everything in this world has been created only to serve us. why are we the only creatures in this world who have the power of thought and none of the other animals. why do we humans have free will and nothing else does who gave us that free will. there are many other things that we cannot see but we do know that they exist because we can feel them. i personally have never seen Allah but if you want proof of his existence then i can give you examples that lead to him.

Understanding is not the same thing as agreeing. For me to agree, you would need to be right. Pain is nothing like God, in that pain is a sensation that we (almost) all feel. No one feels God. As for the rest of your primitive myths, please spare me.

 

[Runewolf1973]

As you see, I don't disagree with Atheists, I just have a different take on their views. I guess I could call myself a sort of open-minded atheist. It's not a matter of what you know or what you believe, it's just how you're mind perceives it. In "stillness of mind" everything becomes clear. Cheers!

I hope I didn't offend anyone an any of my previous posts. I apologize for MY OWN ignorance.
May you find YOUR "stillness of mind".

 

[Storm]

No one feels God.

Really? No one at all? What ARE we experiencing, then?

EDIT: Not that I don't sympathize with your frustration, but you know I can't let a remark like that pass without comment.