does god exist

[Magic Man]

then my friend i will say this to you i will say a verse from the Kur'an which says

"wait because i'm waiting with you"
if that is the only evidence that will please your heart then please be patien and one day you will see but it will be too late for there is no more return to this world

So, that's supposed to "please my heart", huh? I'll stick to this place I like to call reality. Thanks for the threat, though. I'm not exactly sure the threat of eternal damnation ever really works. You either believe or you don't and if that's the only reason you do, I'd think an all-knowing Allah would be able to tell.

 

[emiliano]

easelam,
The problem that you have is that for Christians and Jews Allah is not God, with the Atheist you have the problem that Allah is a spirit and they don’t perceive spiritual beings as other people do.

 

[Magic Man]

also impressed that with nothing resembling 'proof' both theists and atheists can argue for their cause! it seems like one gets insulted when the other says 'you have no proof!' yet, how can you? proof is in the realm of empirical science, not religion.

Actually most of the arguments revolve around theists claiming that they have proof, and others (some atheists and some theists) trying to explain to them that they don't have proof or evidence for their cause because there is no such thing other than personal experience. I haven't seen many atheists claiming that they have proof that there is no God, but that there is no proof that God exists. Mostly it's just a debunking of the theists' so-called proof.

 

[Sententia]

You are confused here. She declares herself a non-theistic god believer, not a non-theist. She doesn't claim to not believe in a god. She claims to not believe in a theistic god. She does believe in a panentheistic god. You could click the link in her signature to find out more before attacking her, and then you wouldn't be so confused...or you could even ask first. She'd be glad to explain it to you, if you'd just ask.

She/he/black or white... Are you you arguing that a pantheistic god is different from a theistic god and that someone who believes in a pantheistic god can not be a theist or is very different from a theist?

I will simply say it is misleading and ultimately not kind to portray that you believe in god but not a theistic god... not to me for I have clicked on said link and already have had this argument... but to those not careful to word their response ever so carefully....

Seriously I ignore no one on these forums but have considered several times ignoring storm simply because people would call me out to defend my belief that a pantheist should not call themselves a non theist..... *sigh*

 

[Storm]

Actually most of the arguments revolve around theists claiming that they have proof, and others (some atheists and some theists) trying to explain to them that they don't have proof or evidence for their cause because there is no such thing other than personal experience. I haven't seen many atheists claiming that they have proof that there is no God, but that there is no proof that God exists. Mostly it's just a debunking of the theists' so-called proof.

It does happen, though, and did a few pages upthread.

 

[ranjana]

I haven't seen many atheists claiming that they have proof that there is no God, but that there is no proof that God exists. Mostly it's just a debunking of the theists' so-called proof.

yes, i agree. and that's fair, because thats exactly how empirical science operates. like so many have said, you cant prove something doesnt exist. So the onus is on the theist to prove God's existence. But my thought is that is impossible (even if I believe in God) so it is, how you say, 'tautological'...

 

[Gharib]

So, that's supposed to "please my heart", huh? I'll stick to this place i like to call reality. Thanks for the threat, though. I'm not exactly sure the threat of eternal damnation ever really works. You either believe or you don't and if that's the only reason you do, I'd think an all-knowing Allah would be able to tell.

if you think that i am threatining you then thats up to you i'm simply telling the truth to you so you know. the people of prophet Musa (as) (Moses) also asked the same question despite what Allah had done for them including His miracles. and he took their souls for quite some time and then returned them back then asked them for how long had they been dead and they said "for a day or for part of a day" when really only Allah knows for how long. and you are right Allah knows everything and if you think that i'm afraid of dying then you clearly are wrong Allah knows why i worship Him and no one else for He is the all knowing. and by the way reality can sometimes deceive you if you do not know which is the right path.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

Im pretty sure if you asked a biologist he could give you a pretty damn good answer. I know pretty much nothing, but im sure he/she could involve words and things to explain themselves. Physical pain can probably be explained, mental pain/anguish, probably not.

We can also see why pain affects us, where as there is 0% evidence in any situation of God. If i say i feel pain and someone says im lying, i can punch them in the knee and they will also see it. Evidence of pain.
If i say omg looks its God, how am i meant to justify God when theres nothing to justify him with but a 2000 year old book that for all we know was written by Joe Bloggs.

It would be nice if you responded to what was actually said. Better still, to address a..1's statements.

 

[Gharib]

Monkey crap. Be careful there, the very thing thats keeping you sticking to your chair might get offended and then we'll all die.
You couldnt prove it to me even if you tried.

first of all i said "monkey crap" because you insulted me and my brothers and sisters of Islam by saying that all humans evolved from monkeys. if you or anyone elses believes that then thats fine by me but do not call my great great grandparents and my ancestors monkeys because that is an offence to all muslims ok.
know heres your proof you calimed that you have been created from monkeys through evolution. then tell me this
1) who created the monkeys
2) and heres something else if you know about the creation of prophet Adem (as) the father of all humans created by Allah then you will also know that men have one less ribb on either the right or left side (not very sure on which side) because the mother of all humans and the wife of prophet Adem (as) was created form the ribb of her husband prophet Adem (as) and if you don't beleive me then go to a hospital and get some x-ray images of a man and a woman and then you will see

 

[darkendless]

It would be nice if you responded to what was actually said. Better still, to address a..1's statements.

Any evidence of God that has ever been presented needs the person who asked for it to believe, to have faith, and to take a step so to speak. You can argue that "one must reach out to God" and all that rubbish until you're black and blue but i'd much rather see some concrete physical evidence of God. Either that or im spiritually dead, either way, it doesn't make your God any more real to anyone.

We obviously don't see evidence the same way. I want physical proof and not philosophy on top of philosophy.

 

[darkendless]

first of all i said "monkey crap" because you insulted me and my brothers and sisters of Islam by saying that all humans evolved from monkeys. if you or anyone elses believes that then thats fine by me but do not call my great great grandparents and my ancestors monkeys because that is an offence to all muslims ok.
know heres your proof you calimed that you have been created from monkeys through evolution. then tell me this
1) who created the monkeys
2) and heres something else if you know about the creation of prophet Adem (as) the father of all humans created by Allah then you will also know that men have one less ribb on either the right or left side (not very sure on which side) because the mother of all humans and the wife of prophet Adem (as) was created form the ribb of her husband prophet Adem (as) and if you don't beleive me then go to a hospital and get some x-ray images of a man and a woman and then you will see

1) well we were slime and bacteria before that but ok. Im not insulting you sir, im just pointing out "strange" coincidental similarities between us and a lot of monkeys/apes whatever you want to call them. If you don't like that, stick your head back in the sand.

2) Correct well done, but that doesn't mean Allah created us. That too is a result of evolutionary processes. Humans didn't just wake up one day and go "omg *** where am i?"

 

[Gharib]

1) well we were slime and bacteria before that but ok. Im not insulting you sir, im just pointing out "strange" coincidental similarities between us and a lot of monkeys/apes whatever you want to call them. If you don't like that, stick your head back in the sand.
2) Correct well done, but that doesn't mean Allah created us. That too is a result of evolutionary processes. Humans didn't just wake up one day and go "omg *** where am i?"

what do you mean evolutionary processes? then why is it that only men have one less ribb and women don't. don't say its because of chance and it just happened. and what do you mean we didn't just wake up one day and go omg where am i. ofcourse we did. where you born in any other planet or universe to say you didn't say that everyone is born here and evryone will die here.
just because we have similarities with monkeys that doesn't mean we evolved from them because if we did then why haven't we evolved into something else (continued the evolution process) we also have similarities with alot of other creatures 2 legs, 2 arms, a brain, etc... that doesn't mean we evolved from them
and one last thing how did bacteria and slime turn into man don't say evolution again

 

[rojse]

This is a forum for those who wish to openly share beliefs in the purpose of gaining knowledge, understanding, and enlightenment. If you have nothing in those terms to offer, nor do you wish to search for that knowledge of God, then WHY are you here?

To understand the rationale behind the thought of theists.

 

[Runewolf1973]

To understand the rationale behind the thought of theists.

Which I guess is belief in something. So can you explain a bit more about this belief of yours. Can you show evidence of what it is you believe in? I'm open-minded and willing to listen to your thoughts. Sorry if I was being ignorant. I'm only human too.

 

[kai]

what do you mean evolutionary processes? then why is it that only men have one less ribb and women don't. don't say its because of chance and it just happened. and what do you mean we didn't just wake up one day and go omg where am i. ofcourse we did. where you born in any other planet or universe to say you didn't say that everyone is born here and evryone will die here.
just because we have similarities with monkeys that doesn't mean we evolved from them because if we did then why haven't we evolved into something else (continued the evolution process) we also have similarities with alot of other creatures 2 legs, 2 arms, a brain, etc... that doesn't mean we evolved from them
and one last thing how did bacteria and slime turn into man don't say evolution again

please dont tell me that you think we evolved from monkeys? that God made women out of adams rib? and i didnt wake up and say omg where am i ,til the first time i got drunk.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

Any evidence of God that has ever been presented needs the person who asked for it to believe, to have faith, and to take a step so to speak. You can argue that "one must reach out to God" and all that rubbish until you're black and blue but i'd much rather see some concrete physical evidence of God. Either that or im spiritually dead, either way, it doesn't make your God any more real to anyone.

We obviously don't see evidence the same way. I want physical proof and not philosophy on top of philosophy.

There is no debate. if God exists, he would have almost certainly built into our brains a native proclivity to believe in God and natural capacity to know him experientially. Sure enough, studies indicate religious experience is attributable something physical, a “God spot.” Our belief in God without argument, therefore, is warranted. One need not prove God existence. Moreover, God-knowingness is experiential and personal. It is not objective and not subject to being evidenced. It cannot be imposed on anyone or attained by the unwilling. The hopeless, the angry, and those contented with their material lot in life have no desire for God and therefore cannot know God. Your use of words like "all that rubbish" are indicative of someone in one of those categories.

Formal arguments and proofs do not ordinarily mean much, anyway. (Remember O.J.?) Most people who believe in God believe without knowing them. Their belief is bedrock and does not need verification because it is experiential, whether conscious or unconscious. In the latter case, things simply make sense with God in place. All the pieces of life’s puzzle fall into place giving them a panoramic view that is, to them, both beautiful and awesome. Just because one doesn't know how to write music doesn't mean they can't appreciate it, and just as people know music when they hear it--even if they don't like what they're hearing--someone who is sensitive to the Divine knows it for what it is even if they unable to articulate it or formulate cogent ideas about it.

Even so, how many musics are there? Man's hearing is finite but the Divine is infinite. It would therefore be very strange indeed if the experiences of God-knowingness were not was not expressed experienced in innumerable ways.

Where does the demand for argument come from, anyway? Who says that without evidence you’re out of line or irrational? Why shouldn’t God-awareness be counted as a properly basic attitude? Even Dennett begins with an attitude that influences his ideas, beliefs, thoughts and philosophical approach.

Like I said at the beginning: there is no debate. Argument is not an attempt to persuade, but to establish grounds. If experience is not sufficient grounds for belief in God, then neither is your claim to consciousness. For all I know, you are a zombie or mechanism that only acts the part.

 

[Sunstone]

Do gods exist? I've never come across any compelling evidence to ascribe ontological existence to deities. There does, however, seem to be a certain kind of experience or experiencing that occurs when the subject/object division in perception ceases to exist and which is sometimes called an experience of deity.

 

[Magic Man]

She/he/black or white... Are you you arguing that a pantheistic god is different from a theistic god and that someone who believes in a pantheistic god can not be a theist or is very different from a theist?

I'm not arguing that, I'm stating it. There is a huge difference between a panentheistic god and a theistic one. I encourage you to research the two, and you can see for yourself.

I will simply say it is misleading and ultimately not kind to portray that you believe in god but not a theistic god... not to me for I have clicked on said link and already have had this argument... but to those not careful to word their response ever so carefully....

No, it's just honest. You're welcome to lump all gods together and dismiss everything without learning about it, but don't make judgements about others due to your willful ignorance.

Seriously I ignore no one on these forums but have considered several times ignoring storm simply because people would call me out to defend my belief that a pantheist should not call themselves a non theist..... *sigh*

Why would someone call you out for ignoring someone? If you want to ignore her or someone else, go right ahead. You'd be losing out on a lot of good posts, but it's your call. I can't even imagine anyone would even notice unless you constantly made it abundantly clear what you were doing.

I am curious how you would explain Richard Dawkins claim that pantheism is just "sexed-up atheism". Personally, as an atheist, my views are qualitatively no different than a pantheist's. So, I'm not really sure why a pantheist should necessarily avoid the label non-theist. Maybe you are just confused about theism?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Like I said at the beginning: there is no debate. Argument is not an attempt to persuade, but to establish grounds. If experience is not sufficient grounds for belief in God, then neither is your claim to consciousness. For all I know, you are a zombie or mechanism that only acts the part.

Sure... it'd be hard to tell a person from a computer only through online interaction. It'd even be conceivable for a human-appearing robot or unconscious zombie to exist, walk and talk.

In the case of consciousness, though, there are at least attempts to ascertain whether an entity has it. Is there a "Turing Test" for the existence of God?

 

[Magic Man]

It does happen, though, and did a few pages upthread.

I know, I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but the majority of the arguing is based on one party saying "Here is the evidence/proof" and the other party saying "That's not evidence/proof".