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Does Islam Need a Reformation?

Does Islam Need To Be Fundamentally Reformed?

  • Yes

    Votes: 27 62.8%
  • No

    Votes: 9 20.9%
  • Other (Explain)

    Votes: 7 16.3%

  • Total voters
    43

mahasn ebn sawresho

Well-Known Member
So there is no reform neccessary of Islam, but a creationist revival now and then is needed.
This answer is clear
A Muslim does not want to reform Islam
But wants development
And the meaning of development is spreading
Through the exploitation of freedom in the West
But there is the fact
Islam does not believe in the freedoms
 

Pastek

Sunni muslim
Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the Somali-Dutch-American ex-Muslim who has been vilified as an Islamophobe by her opponents, has called on atheists to recognize that while all religions may have problems, not all religions are equally bad. As she explains in an excerpt of her new book Heretic:

Are you a partisan of Ali? Do you agree that there is a fundamental problem with Islam, and that Islam needs fundamental reform?

By the way, what do you think about Ayan working with Theo Van Gogh ?

"There is no doubt that van Gogh relished an argument, but he was also capable of making outrageously offensive statements. One example will give a flavour of his retaliatory style. After he had been criticised by the Jewish historian Evelien Gans, he wrote in Folia Civitatis magazine: 'I suspect that Ms Gans gets wet dreams about being ****ed by Dr Mengele.' In 1991 he was fined for anti-Semitism following comments he had made about gas chambers in Moviola magazine."

Amsterdamned, part one | From the Observer | The Observer

"When the novelist and filmmaker Leon de Winter, whose work often revolves around his Jewish family background, managed to get public money for his projects, van Gogh detected cynical manipulation and sentimental cant. “Hey, it smells like caramel today—well then, they must be burning the diabetic Jews,” he wrote, mocking what he saw as a Jewish cult of victimhood.

He described the Jewish historian Evelien Gans as “having wet dreams” about the Auschwitz doctor Josef Mengele. In the guilt-ridden land of Anne Frank, there is a certain amount of strained piety about such topics, but van Gogh’s response had all the subtlety of the Dutch football hooligans who find it amusing to abuse an Amsterdam soccer club known as “the Jews’ club” by mimicking the sound of escaping gas.
Van Gogh seemed to regard delicacy as a sign of fraudulence, and in this he spared no one; Jesus, in his book, was “that rotting fish in Nazareth.”

Final Cut - The New Yorker


Don't put words on my mouth, i was against his killing.


On women :

"Anja Meulenbelt quotes Theo van Gogh, who said that feminists should stop campaigning against husbands' violence in marriages: "Gentlemen who give a tough hiding are quite attractive to some ladies really."

On muslims :

"Van Gogh routinely substituted “goat****er” for “immigrant to The Netherlands from an Islamic country.” Including in his book Allah knows best, 2001: "There is a Fifth Column of goat****ers in this country, who despise and spit at its native people. They hate our freedom." "Soon, the Fifth Column of goat****ers will hurl poison gas, diseases and atomic bombs at your children and my children.” "

Indymedia NL (Nederland) - Theo van Gogh: his views; and after

There's some links from articles in dutch but no translation.

When Dieudonné said those kind of things (while he is a comedian) he was condemned and people said he was racist, antisemite and nobody invated him on TV.
Imagine someone making a movie with Dieudonné about judaism (as he is obsessed with it) and ask people to reform or doing this or that about their community/religion. Would you listen ?

It's the same with Ayan, muslims don't want to listen to her.

I'm ok that she tries to find a solution for helping women against mutilation, against forced mariage (both of them are cultural not islamic and happening in also in some christian communities in africa) in her countries (Kenya/Somalia) or in general.
I think that it's good if she also denounces terrorism or any extremism. But her opinion about Islam reformation, no thanks.

PS : Again i was not talking about the killing of Theo VG that i disaproove but about the kind of person he was - for me a racist, antisemite, islamophobe and mysogine -
And the fact that someone (Ayan) collaborated with this kind of person don't give me any interest to her ideas. But like i said i think she is an opportunist.
 

Mohammad Nur Syamsu

Well-Known Member
This answer is clear
A Muslim does not want to reform Islam
But wants development
And the meaning of development is spreading
Through the exploitation of freedom in the West
But there is the fact
Islam does not believe in the freedoms

It's not correct. Islam, like Christianity, accepts free will is real, as shown by it's acceptance of subjectivity, faith.

It is atheists, evolution scientists, communists, nazi's who do not accept freedom is real, and reject subjectivity. So in the West people's emotions are not acknowledged, because they don't accept subjectivity, and herein lies the problem between Islam and the West.

You should understand that communism and nazism were essentially Western inventions, and while these ideologies are now very much in retreat, there is still this ideological current in the West of denying free will is real, and rejecting subjectivity, now more expressed in new atheism, and evolution theory.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
There are Christian denominations which do not believe in free will and verses in the Quran which show Allah subverts human's free will. Again talking about something you do not understand
 

miodrag

Member
The last thing you heard was in the early part of the past century.
In fact it was about 2 weeks ago, from a Sorbonne graduate psychiatrist and professor. It was not in a flaming mood, but rather as a conclusion that in spite of all recent human rights development, profession has no choice but to positively identify homosexuality as a disorder. Since psychology is not an exact science, I was hoping to learn more about other scientific arguments.
 

gsa

Well-Known Member
In fact it was about 2 weeks ago, from a Sorbonne graduate psychiatrist and professor. It was not in a flaming mood, but rather as a conclusion that in spite of all recent human rights development, profession has no choice but to positively identify homosexuality as a disorder. Since psychology is not an exact science, I was hoping to learn more about other scientific arguments.

Really? So French psychiatry treats homosexuality as a disorder?
 

miodrag

Member
Really? So French psychiatry treats homosexuality as a disorder?
Don't know about that. I have no answers, but questions. And I do not need opinions, but arguments. Since this is offtopic, I would also welcome a private message or a link.
 

OneTwo

Member
As an academic I think it's axiomatically wrong for someone to believe truly that they are in a position to prove the need to change ideology. Almost as if one of my students drops out of class and then decides to write a book about how my class needs reforming and henceforth becomes an expert on the topics we cover. This is absurd!

The underlying issue with religious debates is people continue to think they are experts in this field. Religion to me anyway is probably one the most complex subjects to become educated in. i don't need to remind us of the quote: wouldn't ask a medical dropout on how to perform complex heart surgery.

Understanding a religion takes years and years and years, it's not mathematics where you type into a forumula and its not science where there are fixed components, religion is based on belief and belief cannot be physically tested as it is something inside you.

I fear religion becoming extinct and it would be a great shame for Islam to fall to the extremists, Muslims (not Islam) need to unite and be a voice United. Unfortunately until there becomes a representative body for Islam, there is a very real danger of Islam dissolving to factions of absent direction.

I guess the greatest shame would be to monumentus achievements by their prophet Muhammed all those years ago. Although I cannot remember an empire to exist and continue to grow for this many years, credit given.

To me, I'd happily enter into a debate with someone on Islam as it is a very topical issue currently but I hold no claims to be a religious scholar or even a passionate! However I can say this, Islam is a miracle. Truly. I read about their prophet Muhammed and I was left embarrassed, a man in his position to achieve what he did with such little that he had, may possiblly justify the title of a messenger of God.
 
Although I cannot remember an empire to exist and continue to grow for this many years, credit given.

Which empire?

To me, I'd happily enter into a debate with someone on Islam as it is a very topical issue currently but I hold no claims to be a religious scholar or even a passionate! However I can say this, Islam is a miracle. Truly. I read about their prophet Muhammed and I was left embarrassed, a man in his position to achieve what he did with such little that he had, may possiblly justify the title of a messenger of God.

Why do you think this? If you talk about being the founding figure of a religion, Jesus achieved more with less. If you are talking about empire building in his lifetime, he ranks nowhere near the top of any list.
 
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miodrag

Member
As an academic I think it's axiomatically wrong for someone to believe truly that they are in a position to prove the need to change ideology.

Nothing can be proven to a radical skeptic. We do not have a proof here, but a consensus. Islam is in a desperate need for reformation. Like when Christians changed their ways in the Age of Rationalism, and the world became a better place to live. But they missed the opportunity to keep up to date with critical thinking. Thus today a sober intellectual cannot be persuaded into a Christian theology. Christianity is in a deep crises, even if the numbers tell otherwise. A couple of centuries ago most of the mankind did not knew how to read, but today more and more people spend their time at computers, reading scriptures, thinking freely and creatively and asking provocative questions. Islamic culture never experienced individualism, skepticism, logic... It is hermetic and valid only within the fences it builds around itself. And everything seem to be just fine from the Muslim perspective, while the rest of the world sees that something is so very wrong. So, from the Muslim perspective, there is no need for reformation, since they have a perfect revelation. Times are changing fast. I remember time when Chinese used to proudly present a wrist watch to visitors, who wondered if that was some local custom and what was it supposed to mean. Modern China is unrecognizable, steadily shifting towards capitalism. I remember when Romanian citizens, during the revolution against Ceaușescu, used to eat bananas without peeling the skin, since they never saw it before. That was in 1989, today Romania is in European Union and the member of NATO. I lived in a communist country, now in a democratic, so many changes during my lifetime that I can hardly keep up the pace. I forgot how to write letters by hand, and even if I try, I tend to put smilies. Even the way I think changed. But Muslims seem to be happily stuck in the Middle Ages. Iranian revolution against dictator soon ended with just another, ever-fresh fundamentalism. Frozen for life. That is not how a catholic religion would appear. Catholic means universal, and that means for everyone, in every place, at all times. That means presenting the same essence but adapting to time, place and circumstances. Heck, this sounds like evolution. Seems like Islam never had the ambition to become a catholic religion. Unless there is an ambition to conquer the entire Universe, forever. Do I hear "what a wonderful idea" from the Muslims, taking notes? Without reformation, Islam will isolate itself from the rest of the world and will exist only on it's own planet of the righteous. And even if Muslims achieve all the glory and prosperity and joy on that planet, one thing will still be missing - appreciation from the rest of the world.

Almost as if one of my students drops out of class and then decides to write a book about how my class needs reforming and henceforth becomes an expert on the topics we cover. This is absurd!

Your students would be silly to criticize you if your classes were up to date, but if you would be teaching that the Earth was flat, then you would be silly. Your example is thus not valid and your logic is absurd.

Understanding a religion takes years and years and years...
Understanding religions is as easy as drinking a glass of water.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Muslims seem to be happily stuck in the Middle Ages

Not all. But sadly, and I don't want to agree. The cultures are adhering to what many claim as mythology, much tighter then any other religion.

The lack of moderation, and no control or central structure and the secular infighting, leaves some of the less educated and civilized countries in a state of peril IMHO.

Ive said it once, ill say it again. Its my opinion they need to go back 1100 years to the time when they were the center for scientific knowledge and education, before they can move forward.
 

mahasn ebn sawresho

Well-Known Member
It's not correct. Islam, like Christianity, accepts free will is real, as shown by it's acceptance of subjectivity, faith.

It is atheists, evolution scientists, communists, nazi's who do not accept freedom is real, and reject subjectivity. So in the West people's emotions are not acknowledged, because they don't accept subjectivity, and herein lies the problem between Islam and the West.

You should understand that communism and nazism were essentially Western inventions, and while these ideologies are now very much in retreat, there is still this ideological current in the West of denying free will is real, and rejecting subjectivity, now more expressed in new atheism, and evolution theory.
I offer you a state of the Koran
It is in the words and their meaning is clear also
Every human being written on his neck happiness in this world
And also his condition
In Surah al-Isra In the thirteenth and fourteenth verse which says:

)okl Man Olzimnah his neck in a plane and get out his doomsday book gets published
 

mahasn ebn sawresho

Well-Known Member
It is atheists, evolution scientists, communists, nazi's who do not accept
Nazism and communism, imperialism and capitalism
Is a humanitarian ideas
It is separate from the Christian religion
If you want to compared a Nazi with Islam
it is a good Search this
Because Islam is a religion of Nazism
German nationalism and Nazism is Nazism
 

mahasn ebn sawresho

Well-Known Member
To me, I'd happily enter into a debate with someone on Islam as it is a very topical issue currently but I hold no claims to be a religious scholar or even a passionate! However I can say this, Islam is a miracle. Truly. I read about their prophet Muhammed and I was left embarrassed, a man in his position to achieve what he did with such little that he had, may possiblly justify the title of a messenger of God.
Do you think that Muhammad was a good man ??
Do you think that murder , slaughter, plunder and spoils of the qualities of good man ??
Do you think that the qualities of good man to kill a man and marry his wife in the same day
You are a sinner in the greatness of Muhammad gauges ??
If you put businessman Mohammed
And its military and sexual relations ?
You will know what kind of men is Muhammad ?
؟؟
 

mahasn ebn sawresho

Well-Known Member
The success of the military leaders does not mean they are the prophets ?
Do you think that George Bush is a prophet ?
Because he was a military commander ??
And also is the leader of the Americans who control the world today ???
Do you think that Winston Churchill was a prophet as well ??
Because he succeeded in achieving military victories ?? you have to know the difference between a prophet and military leader ??
Prophet is published love and peace ??
I personally considered Gandhi best of Muhammad ??
 

mahasn ebn sawresho

Well-Known Member
I guess the greatest shame would be to monumentus achievements by their prophet Muhammed all those years ago. Although I cannot remember an empire to exist and continue to grow for this many years, credit given.
When due to battles Mohammed
You'll learn that he was a military commander and a bloody and terrorist ??
He was present when it was cut Raeads Jews in the Khyber ??
Do you believe in the prophet of this model ??
You have to examine the works of Mohammed terrorist and compare it with the bloody leaders in history
Yes Muhammad was a terrorist from first class
And his followers were also terrorists
That is why Islam has continued strongly terrorism
 

mahasn ebn sawresho

Well-Known Member
Curious exactly what the deep crisis may be.

If this is even true, islam will probably follow the same path in time, or implode upon itself.
When there is real freedom to humans in the dialogue and speech
Islam breaks down automatically
That which makes Islam stand is the absence of intellectual freedom
 
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