Does one ceases to be human when one dies?

[Grandliseur]

But there lies the issue. Assuming we have an incorporeal soul that exists after death and suppose our collective memories and thoughts exist along with our soul. We cease to be human but we are something else

Nonexistence is nonexistence.

If you go to the Bible this is said about the soul of Christ when he died:

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.​

His soul died. End of story.

He had to be resurrected to become alive again.

 

[Deeje]

I beg to differ. Having lived for over 45 years with a person who is almost constantly in communication with those who have "passed", I would caution you not to jump to this conclusion to rapidly. Of course, like you, I would not have believed this statement unless and until I experienced it first hand.

How do you know that the spirits who are communicating with your partner are the spirits of the dead? Did they tell you that? You believe them? How do you know?

One of the things the Israelites were forbidden to do was to try to communicate with the dead....a common practice among Canaanite pagans whom they evicted from their land. All forms of spiritism were against God's law. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) This was because demons impersonate the dead and can tell you things that only that person would know. Why would demons do that? To reinforce the first lie that their leader told in Eden..."you surely will not die". God told Adam the exact opposite. Death is the opposite of life, not a mere change in form.

In the Bible, there are no spirits in existence except God and his angels and satan and his demons. Only one in those two groups is a known liar. His minions serve his interests well. Its a clever deception.

 

[SalixIncendium]

I was wondering whether we lose our humanity when we cease to exist when we die....assuming the incorporeal soul exists, do we cease to be human or are we an undefined entity?

In my view, consciousness transcends biology. Not only do we cease be the species, we cease to be 'life,' which is the highest taxonomic rank, between rebirths and after liberation. We may be born again as human, but we may be born as something else just as well, depending on what causality dictates our duty must be to achieve liberation.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Nonexistence is nonexistence.

If you go to the Bible this is said about the soul of Christ when he died:

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.​

His soul died. End of story.

He had to be resurrected to become alive again.

Unless you're a biblical scholar not sure if what you're saying is the accurate description. The denial of a soul is contrary to Christian and Biblical beliefs. Adam had a soul as God himself breathed life into him.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

In my view, consciousness transcends biology. Not only do we cease be the species, we cease to be 'life,' which is the highest taxonomic rank, between rebirths and after liberation. We may be born again as human, but we may be born as something else just as well, depending on what causality dictates our duty must be to achieve liberation.

Then what are we then?

 

[SalixIncendium]

Then what are we then?

We are that which is aware. We are consciousness.

 

[sayak83]

Interesting...I would like to learn more on the Hindu perspective

Certainly. Ask away.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

We are that which is aware. We are consciousness.

But of what substance is consciousness made of?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Certainly. Ask away.

So do we go back to Brahman when we die or are we reborn as something else?

 

[SalixIncendium]

But of what substance is consciousness made of?

My conclusion is that it is made up of energy.

 

[sayak83]

So do we go back to Brahman when we die or are we reborn as something else?

We are born (rather manifested) as some other being. Maybe in this world, or in a different realm (heavens and hells). All such manifestations are transient. Even a lesser god will eventually die and will be reborn somewhere else. I am not certain what happens between death and rebirth. Rebirth is supposed to end only when liberation through enlightenment is achieved.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

We are born (rather manifested) as some other being. Maybe in this world, or in a different realm (heavens and hells). All such manifestations are transient. Even a lesser god will eventually die and will be reborn somewhere else. I am not certain what happens between death and rebirth. Rebirth is supposed to end only when liberation through enlightenment is achieved.

Ah I see....Interesting....so the lesser gods are finite beings?

 

[Deeje]

This is according to your belief....

What makes us human?

What makes us different to all the other creatures on this planet is our intellect, our sense of morality, our ability to imagine, and our infinite creative ability....all reflecting the qualities of the Creator in whose image we are made.

We are hominids we belong to bipedal species that exist where we can create tools to help us do things. We speak words to convey intelligent thought. We design buildings, houses, where we can live away from elements.

Please understand that being made of the same genetic material as the rest of creation, in no way makes us so different to the animals physiologically....but one major difference with humankind is that we alone possess the qualities of our Creator, which creates an unbridgeable chasm between us and the animals.

We alone were designed to live forever in our mortal flesh. Animals have a natural cycle of life and death, but death to us humans is as foreign today as it was when the first human died. We alone are programmed to go on living and God provided the means right there in the garden. Once sin entered into the world, God took that means away....so that now we die, just like the animals. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20) Our superiority in that respect was destroyed.....but not forever. God made the way for us to get back what Adam lost for his children.

We are therefore the only creatures who can contemplate our own demise....and it scares the heck out of us.

What I stating Is that when the mortal flesh dies as in our heart and brain stop functioning and cease to exist as far as mortals, what are we thereafter.

We are a memory to God. We as human beings are no longer in existence in any form. The soul, as a conscious entity, dies (Ezekiel 18:4)The spirit (not to be confused with the soul) is not a conscious entity and all prospects for future life rest with God, who is the only one who can recreate our body and restore our spirit. (breath)

There is nothing in the Hebrew scriptures to indicate that the ancient Jews ever believed in an afterlife of any sort...they believed in a physical resurrection back to this life on this earth.The Kingdom of God in the hands of his Messiah was always going to be on earth. They entertained no notion of going to heaven. Jesus' disciples had to be anointed by holy spirit in order to make them want to leave their earthly lives to rule in heaven with him. Only a few chosen ones have that privilege. God is the one who chooses them.

What did God tell Adam about eating the forbidden fruit? That he would go to heaven or hell? NO! Simply that he would go back to where he was before God created him......he simply didn't exist.

Where were we before our mothers conceived us? We didn't exist either. But humans are programmed to go on living so it is natural for them to invent ways to allow that to happen...immortal souls...reincarnation....whatever. Our brains cannot seem to process non-existence, yet that is what happens. There is a lot of misunderstanding about words that the Bible uses to describe the abode of the dead.

As far as your spiritual beliefs concerning this matter many would disagree with your interpretation. In the Bible God "breathed" into the soul of man. This breath can be interpreted as God giving mankind a soul.

Many disagreed with Jesus Christ too, what does that prove? The idea of an immortal soul came from the Platonic Greeks, not from anything in the Bible.

When man was first created, God "breathed" life into Adam and he "became" a "soul". The Hebrew word for "spirit" is ruʹach and the Greek word is pneuʹma. It isn't an entity but the lifeforce that animates a soul. God literally put breath (spirit) into Adam's lungs and made him a "soul". We understand the connection of "breath" or air when we use such English words as "pneumatic" or "pneumonia".....it is not related to a spiritual entity that dwells inside a physical vehicle. Consciousness is entirely dependent on a functioning brain.The soul cannot exist without a body and a body is not alive without spirit.

When the 'spirit' (breath) leaves the body (as we breathe our last breath,) the soul dies. All consciousness then ceases. (Psalm 146:4)

One could argue that all sentient beings come from divine providence. I would argue that if we have a soul then we too are incorporeal beings.

According to scripture (and 45 years of deep Bible study,) I can assure you that the "soul" and the "spirit" have been completely misinterpreted and misunderstood by the churches due to influences from outside of it, just as Israel did in its long and disobedient history of excursions into false religious practices. History repeats because we humans never learn the lessons from the past.

 

[sayak83]

Ah I see....Interesting....so the lesser gods are finite beings?

Yes. The epithets (Indra, Varuna, Surya etc.) are names of positions and roles (like the president, the defence minister) that survive the individual god-personalities who fill it.

Though their lifetimes are supposed to count in millions of human years. Even the great Gods eventually unmanifest themselves and merge back into Brahman after cycles of multiverses that last in the order of trillions and trillions of human years. After that only Brahman exist, unmanifest, as a form of "potential" between being and non-being. Then eventually a creative cycle of manifestation starts again. That junction between unmanifest Brahman and its creative efflorescence into being is the subject of the famous Vedic hymn translated below:-

Then even nothingness was not, nor existence,
There was no air then, nor the heavens beyond it.
What covered it? Where was it? In whose keeping?
Was there then cosmic water, in depths unfathomed?

Then there was neither death nor immortality
nor was there then the torch of night and day.
The One breathed windlessly and self-sustaining.
There was that One then, and there was no other.

At first there was only darkness wrapped in darkness.
All this was only unillumined cosmic water.
That One which came to be, enclosed in nothing,
arose at last, born of the power of heat.

In the beginning desire descended on it -
that was the primal seed, born of the mind.
The sages who have searched their hearts with wisdom
know that which is kin to that which is not.

And they have stretched their cord across the void,
and know what was above, and what below.
Seminal powers made fertile mighty forces.
Below was strength, and over it was impulse.

But, after all, who knows, and who can say
Whence it all came, and how creation happened?
the Devas (minor gods) themselves are later than creation,
so who knows truly whence it has arisen?

Whence all creation had its origin,
he, whether he fashioned it or whether he did not,
he, who surveys it all from highest heaven,
he knows - or maybe even he does not know.[11]

 

[Deeje]

In my view, consciousness transcends biology. Not only do we cease be the species, we cease to be 'life,' which is the highest taxonomic rank, between rebirths and after liberation. We may be born again as human, but we may be born as something else just as well, depending on what causality dictates our duty must be to achieve liberation.

Can I ask what leads you to believe this? What "liberation" do you speak of that is our "duty"? Just curious....

 

[Grandliseur]

Unless you're a biblical scholar not sure if what you're saying is the accurate description. The denial of a soul is contrary to Christian and Biblical beliefs. Adam had a soul as God himself breathed life into him.

Sorry to disagree when it comes to being exact, and here we must be exact.

Adam didn't have a soul, he became a living soul. That churches teach all kinds of things, I admit. I just don't agree with many of the things they claim. I am a by-the-Bible person.

Genesis 2: 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. KJV​

When a person studies at the university to become a doctor, he gets his certificate; and he, that whole person, becomes a doctor. It is not something that may be separated from what he is as an individual.

Here is a small study on the issue with Bible scriptures that should tell you exactly what is what:
Link: >Truth Seeker - Soul--Immortal? Animals?<

As to my human credentials, I have them, but the question becomes - what counts?

Here is what is important:

2 Corinthians 3: 5 not that we are competent of ourselves to think anything as of ourselves, but our competency is of God; 6 who has also made us competent, as ministers of the new covenant; not of letter, but of spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit quickens.
​

If then the scriptures that you are shown demonstrate the truth of the matter, it is up to you to determine what the truth is in this. If I am qualified in teaching you this or not - you may also judge. I, myself, am satisfied if I do what I am obliged to before the face of God.

​

 

[SalixIncendium]

Can I ask what leads you to believe this?

Years of religious study, scientific study, research in both, meditation, and reflection.

What "liberation" do you speak of that is our "duty"? Just curious....

I think you might have misread what I wrote. I mentioned our duty as determined by causality. This duty leads to achievement of liberation.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Yes. The epithets (Indra, Varuna, Surya etc.) are names of positions and roles (like the president, the defence minister) that survive the individual god-personalities who fill it.

Though their lifetimes are supposed to count in millions of human years. Even the great Gods eventually unmanifest themselves and merge back into Brahman after cycles of multiverses that last in the order of trillions and trillions of human years. After that only Brahman exist, unmanifest, as a form of "potential" between being and non-being. Then eventually a creative cycle of manifestation starts again. That junction between unmanifest Brahman and its creative efflorescence into being is the subject of the famous Vedic hymn translated below:-

Then even nothingness was not, nor existence,
There was no air then, nor the heavens beyond it.
What covered it? Where was it? In whose keeping?
Was there then cosmic water, in depths unfathomed?

Then there was neither death nor immortality
nor was there then the torch of night and day.
The One breathed windlessly and self-sustaining.
There was that One then, and there was no other.

At first there was only darkness wrapped in darkness.
All this was only unillumined cosmic water.
That One which came to be, enclosed in nothing,
arose at last, born of the power of heat.

In the beginning desire descended on it -
that was the primal seed, born of the mind.
The sages who have searched their hearts with wisdom
know that which is kin to that which is not.

And they have stretched their cord across the void,
and know what was above, and what below.
Seminal powers made fertile mighty forces.
Below was strength, and over it was impulse.

But, after all, who knows, and who can say
Whence it all came, and how creation happened?
the Devas (minor gods) themselves are later than creation,
so who knows truly whence it has arisen?

Whence all creation had its origin,
he, whether he fashioned it or whether he did not,
he, who surveys it all from highest heaven,
he knows - or maybe even he does not know.[11]

Wow...that is an interesting explanation. The gods go back to Brahman the origin then reborn elsewhere..

 

[Deeje]

Years of religious study, scientific study, research in both, meditation, and reflection.

Was that "religious study" only within Christendom, or did you extend your study to outside of what is taught by orthodox Christianity?

Did your scientific study also go outside of 'orthodoxy'? Or did you weigh what those who support ID have to say?

Meditation is very important, although a person who practices Eastern Religion may have a different concept of it.

Reflection is also an important component of study and meditation.

I think you might have misread what I wrote. I mentioned our duty as determined by causality. This duty leads to achievement of liberation.

You'll have to forgive me but I do not understand what "duty as determined by causality" means...can you explain please?

And "this duty leads to achievement of liberation".....sorry to be a pain, but liberation from what exactly?
Just trying to understand your POV.

Thanks.

 

[Deeje]

No,
but seems we cease to age until reborn to try again

Is reincarnation a Jewish belief?