Does one ceases to be human when one dies?

[Epic Beard Man]

I'm sorry, sometimes I come across pretty strong....I didn't mean to.

Best wishes to you.

I am curious: what do you believe happens at death? Is there a source you base your beliefs on?

I believe all sentient life have some sort of essence or some sort of divine emanation that makes different species unique. I believe this essence is bound in matter which is us and it is released when our working body ceases to function. I believe that essence returns to its original source that being God.

 

[Thief]

Ummmm no.....I don't think he is "floating around" anywhere. I believe that Jesus, like his Father has a dwelling place that is in another realm, unseen to human eyes, and not part of the material world.

God is a spirit and so is the Word, but the man who became Jesus Christ was a mortal human being who dwelt among other humans. He is the one who told us that his Father has a place that he occupies. (Matthew 6:9) The Father is not omnipresent, but has a location...."heaven". We have no idea where that is. We just know that it is alluded to in the Bible and that spirit beings exist there. Some humans are promised life there to rule in a heavenly government over redeemed mankind with Christ, (Revelation 20:6) but the majority of humans will live forever right here where God put us all those thousands of years ago. If he had wanted us in heaven, he would have created us there, like he did the angels.

This earth is not a training ground for heaven.



That is a common misconception and a mistranslation. Jesus was addressing some Pharisees when he said that "the Kingdom of God is within you".....but he never really said what most people take those words to mean. He castigated the Pharisees at every opportunity and even said that their hearts were "far removed" from the worship of God. He never said that the Kingdom was 'within' those wicked hearts.

The word translated "within" can also be rendered "in the midst of you".....meaning that the appointed King of God's Kingdom was right there "in their midst" but they failed to recognize him. That makes more sense given the setting.

so picture the scene you refer to....a bit more personal.....as a Pharisee

the Carpenter says to you....in your face.....the kingdom is within you
and as a Pharisee.....you don't believe it

another realm?....a spiritual realm?

I strongly suspect....this life forms the basic spirit that you are
and after the last breath
you transform into whatever.....you really are
right before God and heaven

and God and heaven will be there in that hour
to see whatever stands from the dust

God and heaven will be seeking a reflection.....of heaven

training?....yeah
if you are allowed to follow
you will learn the language, the territory and the scheme of things

but that reflection.....needs to be there when you die

 

[Milton Platt]

I agree. However our atomic makeup will always be unaffected as far as I can tell. I tend to think we come about through arranging and rearranging of atoms. I tend to view it as a cyclic process. Life comes, life goes.

That goes without saying....or at least it should. I did not imply that death had the power to directly disintigrate atoms.

 

[Milton Platt]

Assuming you read the OP entirely, if we have a soul then again do we cease to be human and becoming something else or do we continue being a human just in another form?

Sure, I read it. Although I do not believe in a soul, why would the possession of one mean we do not cease to exist at death. Perhaps the postulated but unproven soul also dissipates at death.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Sure, I read it. Although I do not believe in a soul, why would the possetion of one mean we do not cease to exist at death. Perhaps the postulated but unproven soul also dissipates at death.

If I postulate the claim that the soul is incorporeal, then the soul is not subjected to the laws of physicality. Things composed of substance (matter) dissipates over time something incorporeal does not.
.

 

[Deeje]

I have to admit @Thief that your posts are often difficult for me to understand when you use such phraseology, but I will try to respond as best as I understand what you are saying....

so picture the scene you refer to....a bit more personal.....as a Pharisee

the Carpenter says to you....in your face.....the kingdom is within you
and as a Pharisee.....you don't believe it

another realm?....a spiritual realm?

Jesus was telling those Pharisees (of whom he already said that their hearts were far removed from God) that concerning the kingdom that they expected in the future under Messiah's rulership...its appointed King, their Messiah whom they were denying, was staring them in the face....right there among them, rescuing the "lost sheep" from their evil grip.

The Kingdom is a government ruling from heaven over a cleansed earth. God will rip human rulership from corrupt humans and give it to Christ. That is what the Bible teaches. (Daniel 2:44)

I strongly suspect....this life forms the basic spirit that you are
and after the last breath
you transform into whatever.....you really are
right before God and heaven

The difference between the "soul" and the "spirit" is clearly outlined in scripture. They are not one and the same thing, nor are the terms interchangeable. The soul is the living, breathing creature (be it animals or human) and the "spirit" is the lifeforce that animates the body, assuring oxygen delivery to every cell with every breath.

training?....yeah
if you are allowed to follow
you will learn the language, the territory and the scheme of things

but that reflection.....needs to be there when you die

If there is a language to learn, it will be learned by countless millions, not just by one isolated person, concerned with just their own ideas. Christ's teachings were spread by the ones he personally trained. What did they believe?

God formed his people into a nation and dealt with them through human representatives appointed by him. They had earthly hopes, not heavenly aspirations. God put humans on earth, not to train them for heaven, but to carry out his first purpose to "fill the earth and subdue it". If he had wanted spirits in heaven, why not just put them there to begin with, like he did the angels? They didn't need to train for heaven. They are sons of God and free willed beings just like we are. They just have a different realm to inhabit.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It seens to me that anti-abortion people who insist that a fetus is a human should also be agreeing that a freshly deceased person is a human on roughly the same basis.

 

[Milton Platt]

If I postulate the claim that the soul is incorporeal, then the soul is not subjected to the laws of physicality. Things composed of substance (matter) dissipates over time something incorporeal does not.
.

I had to scroll back to the OP and look at it again. Why does the word “incorporeal” necessarily require immortality of some kind?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I had to scroll back to the OP and look at it again. Why does the word “incorporeal” necessarily require immortality of some kind?

Because the soul has no substance like material things....Thus not subject to any universal laws that effect material things.

 

[Deeje]

It seens to me that anti-abortion people who insist that a fetus is a human should also be agreeing that a freshly deceased person is a human on roughly the same basis.

Isn't that the reason why they try so hard to resuscitate them? Life is precious and should be preserved if at all possible.

 

[Thief]

If there is a language to learn, it will be learned by countless millions, not just by one isolated person, concerned with just their own ideas. Christ's teachings were spread by the ones he personally trained. What did they believe?

God formed his people into a nation and dealt with them through human representatives appointed by him. They had earthly hopes, not heavenly aspirations. God put humans on earth, not to train them for heaven, but to carry out his first purpose to "fill the earth and subdue it". If he had wanted spirits in heaven, why not just put them there to begin with, like he did the angels? They didn't need to train for heaven. They are sons of God and free willed beings just like we are. They just have a different realm to inhabit.

We are here to learn all that we can before we die
the body does nothing more

if we suspect a life after death ( I do)
then I do as I believe to be the manner of heaven

you can't follow someone else into heaven.....unless they allow it
and they would need that reflection of heaven upon them to lead the way
otherwise you both stand at the Door.....knocking

here in this world, I post, you read
likewise in return
if we were closer....I speak, you listen
and the same in return

but dead men neither write or speak
and there are many who do neither.....though the opportunity is here and now

in the next life, communication is dealt mind to mind....heart to heart
you cannot hide whatever you really are

we came into this life naked
we leave.....even more so

you cannot hide your dreams
you have to share them

 

[Deeje]

Because the soul has no substance like material things....Thus not subject to any universal laws that effect material things.

Where did you get that idea...that the soul can exist without the body? There is no such teaching in scripture.
The soul is the whole person. The spirit is what animates the soul. Breathing is what keeps us alive. The soul dies when breathing stops.

Psalm 115:17 ASV says....."The dead praise not Jehovah, Neither any that go down into silence"

"The dead know nothing at all" (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)

 

[Milton Platt]

Because the soul has no substance like material things....Thus not subject to any universal laws that effect material things.

Well, if you are going to make up something and call it a soul, I guess you are free to make up any attributes you wish, as well. Didn’t mean to sidetrack things from the question in the OP

 

[Thief]

Where did you get that idea...that the soul can exist without the body? There is no such teaching in scripture.
The soul is the whole person. The spirit is what animates the soul. Breathing is what keeps us alive. The soul dies when breathing stops.

Psalm 115:17 ASV says....."The dead praise not Jehovah, Neither any that go down into silence"

"The dead know nothing at all" (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)

it is written .....
Let the dead bury the dead.

you can be dead while still breathing

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Where did you get that idea...that the soul can exist without the body? There is no such teaching in scripture.
The soul is the whole person. The spirit is what animates the soul. Breathing is what keeps us alive. The soul dies when breathing stops.

Psalm 115:17 ASV says....."The dead praise not Jehovah, Neither any that go down into silence"

"The dead know nothing at all" (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)

You do realize I'm not Christian, nor do I subscribe to the Christian Bible. You do realize there are other faiths that subscribe to the soul existing outside the body.

"On the other hand, many Talmudic Rabbis taught that the soul not only exists separately from the body, but also exists in a fully conscious state in an ethereal realm (Ketubbot 77b, Berakhot 18b-19a, and elsewhere)."

"
Islamic tradition discusses elaborately, almost in graphic detail, as to what exactly happens before, during, and after death. The Angel of death, often called Azrael, assigned by God for taking out or extracting the soul of the dying.

Usually death is portrayed as a terrifying and painful event for sinner's or a disbeliever.[10][11] Thus the angels of punishment arrive and take position in front of him. Then, the angel of death arrives and tells the soul to come out to the wrath of God. Being terrified, the soul desperately tries to hide itself in the body. Thereupon, the angel of death starts beating the soul and extracts it from the body in a most painful way. The painful process of taking out a sinner's soul has been compared with "the dragging of an iron skewer through moist wool, tearing the veins and sinews."[12] The soul is then wrapped in a dirty cloth which emits bad smell. Carrying the soul, the angels head towards the sky. On the way, other angels inquire about this wicked soul. They are told that this is the soul of that and that sinner person. The angels then arrive at the upper sky, but its doors are not opened for the evil soul. Consequently, the soul is then thrown in lowest stage of the earth called 'Sijjin' where it is punished until the Day of Judgment.[13]

On the other hand, for true believers and the righteous, death will cause a feeling of love, then it's arrives and their souls will be aparted tender.[14] When a righteous believer dies, bright-faced angels from heaven descends with divine perfume and shroud. Then the angel of death comes, and tells the soul to come out to the pleasure and mercy of God. The soul is then extracted as easily as water comes out from the pitcher. The soul is then wrapped in the perfumed shroud and is taken up to the seventh heaven where God declares: 'write down his name in 'Illiyin' and take him back to earth. I created him from earth, and I will raise him second time from this very earth.' The soul is then pushed back into the body and is interrogated by two angels called Munkar and Nakir. He succeeds in answering the questions, and is blessed with heavenly rewards.[12][15]

Muhammad is reported as saying that 'When the ruh (soul) is taken out, the eyesight follows it' (Sahih Muslim)."[16]

So again, in other traditions the soul and the body although one in time, are seperate.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Well, if you are going to make up something and call it a soul, I guess you are free to make up any attributes you wish, as well. Didn’t mean to sidetrack things from the question in the OP

Apparently you've never studied philosophy....

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Isn't that the reason why they try so hard to resuscitate them? Life is precious and should be preserved if at all possible.

I'm talking about a point after that: it's clear that the person can't be revived, but the corpse still has unique human DNA, a nervous system with the capacity for feelings (whether or not it's currently being used for this), etc... all the things that they claim entitle a fetus to "personhood."

So if the "the fetus is a person" crowd aren't complete hypocrites, they would acknowledge the personhood of a corpse on the same basis that they claim personhood for a fetus.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I had to scroll back to the OP and look at it again. Why does the word “incorporeal” necessarily require immortality of some kind?

Incorporeal or not, you might be surprised by these Scriptures (they actually state differently than what is taught in Christendom, namely, that the soul is immortal):

Ezekiel 18:4; Ezekiel 18:20. "The soul that sinneth, it will die."

It's quite plain.

 

[Deeje]

You do realize I'm not Christian, nor do I subscribe to the Christian Bible. You do realize there are other faiths that subscribe to the soul existing outside the body.

Since you define yourself as "One that which the Creator made"....there are not many faiths outside the Abrahamic ones that believe in a Creator. Can I ask what faith you subscribe to?

"On the other hand, many Talmudic Rabbis taught that the soul not only exists separately from the body, but also exists in a fully conscious state in an ethereal realm (Ketubbot 77b, Berakhot 18b-19a, and elsewhere)."

Ancient Judaism taught no such thing. King Solomon is the one who wrote Ecclesiastes where he tells us about the condition of those in "sheol". And since the Greek equivalent to "sheol" is "hades" there has been a lot of twisting of the scriptures to incorporate Greek teachings of an immortal soul. Greek influence affected both Judaism and later Christianity.

So again, in other traditions the soul and the body although one in time, are seperate.

In original Christianity there was no immortal soul, just as there was none in the original Jewish faith.

Christendom has followed the same path as her predecessor.....favoring man-made traditions over the word of God....and fashioning scripture to suit its new adopted beliefs.....it was foretold to happen this way.

 

[Deeje]

I'm talking about a point after that: it's clear that the person can't be revived, but the corpse still has unique human DNA, a nervous system with the capacity for feelings (whether or not it's currently being used for this), etc... all the things that they claim entitle a fetus to "personhood."

I'm sorry but I don't follow your reasoning. The fetus, in utero is a living entity attached to an umbilical chord that is feeding it and making it grow because of attachment to its mother who is providing it with nourishment. It has a heartbeat at a few weeks gestation.

A dead person is just a piece of flesh, like the carcass of a dead animal. When the body ceases to breathe, the person is dead. Unless you can revive that body in a short space of time, cells will begin to die....brain cells first. The body will begin to decay if it is buried, or hasten to dust if it is cremated.

Life is started by the meeting of two components, an egg and a sperm....and once they attain union, that life must perpetuate itself by dividing and becoming a human embryo.....as it continues to grow, its features become more and more human......once it is born, a human baby needs to grow by by eating, drinking, breathing, sleeping and learning which should be provided by the ones who caused its birth.

The fetus in the womb is not dead because it is receiving its oxygen and nourishment from the person who is supposed to love it and protect it.....its mother. There is no stronger bond.

So if the "the fetus is a person" crowd aren't complete hypocrites, they would acknowledge the personhood of a corpse on the same basis that they claim personhood for a fetus.

I'm sorry but that makes no sense at all.

I am not talking about "personhood"...I am talking about the Bible's definition of life, not man's definition with a view to justifying abortion.
To God a fetus has all the genetic information that its cells need to determine its hair color and texture, its eye color, its stature and build, personality traits inherited from its gene pool.....how can anyone say that this living thing can be denied life when all it will be at birth is already programmed? Nothing will justify elective abortion to me....it is pre-meditated murder IMV.

If a woman does not want the child, give it to someone who does.