does owning a pet seem sinful?

[oldbadger]

kloth....... hello again.

You need to decide what you think about your thread, whether owning a pet is sinful or not, and then we can move forward ........ with how to move forward.

Obviously if owning a pet is sinful.... not covered in the bible like you have pointed out, we need to decide how to end pet ownership.

But more than that, we need to decide whether keeping working pets is sinful. I mean, keeping a pet like our little miniature dachshund, Smew, who doesn't 'do' mornings, wolfs her grub up, swims in the sea and refuses to come out when we call her, etc is quite a different life to that of her ancestors who were sent underground to chase badgers to the surface for extermination...... they worked or died. Sometimes they died as they worked.... badgers are tough. How do you feel about dogs kept to work..... slavery and an early death when they were too old to carry on? Sinful?

How about animals kept for their meat? any ideas on that?

I'm here, waiting to read your words and philosophy about not only pets-at-home, but working animals, food-provision animals...... the lot. I need to read your wisdom. Can't wait.

 

[YmirGF]

I can't quite get past the idea that anything is sinful let alone owning a fricken dog.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I can't quite get past the idea that anything is sinful let alone owning a fricken dog.

Yes, my poor dog. All the hardships she endures on a daily basis of having acres upon acres of field to run around on, other dogs to play with, never having to worry about clean water or food, she gets to go on car rides, she gets to lie on my bed on night, she never has to worry about fleas, ticks, heart worms...god it must be such a miserable and unbearable life for her and I should feel guilty because she's romping around in three acres of yard with my parent's dogs right now.
And that isn't even addressing the cats, who without question think they get to have the run of the place and that I should be serving them. And I had a cat who was so protective of her home, she used to patrol the yard from the roof of my house.

 

[Quagmire]

The synergistic relationship between dogs and humans has been going on for so long now (some experts say more than 30,000 years, which would be something like at least 2000 canine generations), and considering how far removed modern canines are instinctively from their pre-pet ancestors, you could almost call it natural.

Also, when you consider that the whole synergistic partnership thing was the canines' idea in the first place (the dogs' wild ancestors started following our ancestors in order to scavenge their left-overs), I'd say no, it isn't unethical.

It's completely wrong to keep some species as pets though.

 

[Penumbra]

I loved having pet animals when I was little, but I can't justify it anymore. I can't buy a bred animal, have its reproductive system surgically neutered, and then spend resources keeping it fed and content in an artificial environment. So, I probably won't have any more pets.

If a farmer keeps a dog for practical purposes, or a family takes in a pet from a shelter, that seems all positive. Buying a bred little toy dog and cutting his testicles off, or keeping a cat and cutting her ovaries out, seems pretty wrong in most cases.

 

[Koldo]

I loved having pet animals when I was little, but I can't justify it anymore. I can't buy a bred animal, have its reproductive system surgically neutered, and then spend resources keeping it fed and content in an artificial environment. So, I probably won't have any more pets.

If a farmer keeps a dog for practical purposes, or a family takes in a pet from a shelter, that seems all positive. Buying a bred little toy dog and cutting his testicles off, or keeping a cat and cutting her ovaries out, seems pretty wrong in most cases.

You don't have to cut his testicles off...
You only have to do that if you let your dog wander around without supervision.

 

[oldbadger]

.............................So, I probably won't have any more pets.
If a farmer keeps a dog for practical purposes............... that seems all positive.

Hello! Plx excuse me hacking up your post....

It's possible that you might (one day) need a pet dog. In the situations I have in mind it will certainly be neutered, it's very life will rise and fall with your own, it will be like a slave to your every need, whim and wish...... and it will love every minute of its life. Plx let me explain: In Britain we have many dogs who live in homes as pets.
1. Hearing dogs for the deaf, to warn owners of traffic, fire and other risks; to advise about visitors, callers, computer messages... etc
2. Guide dogs for the blind. Self explanatory.
3. Medical Alert dogs. To warn owners of impending epileptic seizures and other conditions which a dog can sense more quickly than a human.
4. Canine Partners type A: Who accompany owners everywhere and help them to cope with disabilities such as agoraphobia, crowds, noisy environments etc.
5. Canine Partners type B: Who accompany physically disabled people and reach up for them, press bell-pushes, carry items, etc etc.

There are more, but those I can remember now. Now, if you would accept that the above types of dog, in addition to your farm-hounds, hunting hounds, sniffer-digs, security-dogs, guard-dogs, police-dogs, cart-dogs etc etc are acceptable, then Mrs Badger, who could not have children of her own and so focuses most of her love and affection on two little miniature dachshunds that we own...might plead 'Why, oh why can't I have these little darlings to live with me?'

And if you would accept her wish and understand it, then the next dog owner will make pleas, and on, and on.... until we are where we are now, with loyal canine friends and other pets around us.

The only dogs that I would not wish to see are those that the street yobos use to frighten or attack people with.

 

[Thief]

And God seems to have done so unto us?.....let's shift perspective....

The Old Book claims God made Man a little less than the angels.(written)
and then to the angels He said....
Man is less than you so seek after him a make certain he would not dash his toe or his head.(not written)

One third of the angelic said ..'nay..
Man is less than we are and therefore should be made to serve us.'

There's nothing wrong with that logic.
We humans do so unto everything less than we are.
We saddle horses and break their spirit.
We force the animal to take us wherever we care to go.

It is the nature of the dog to roam in packs and hunt at will.
We humans chain the animal, and forbid that it might bite the hand that feeds it.
We then expect it affection and loyalty.

We cage little birds for their love songs.
But the creature will never fins the mate he sings for.
No nest, no offspring and he will die in solitude.

We kill insects on sight.

We do unto lesser life as we see fit.
Even unto each other.

To whom do we bear resemblance?

The story I got.....a fight broke out.
Brother angel against brother angel.
One third of heaven fell.
They lost their position over an argument about something that looks like us.
They want us dead.
Two thirds of heaven lost their brothers over an argument...about us.
They might not care.

To whom do we bear resemblance?

btw....we have a dog...and enough ground to chase Frisbee.
Never have seen a happier puppy.

 

[Penumbra]

You don't have to cut his testicles off...
You only have to do that if you let your dog wander around without supervision.

Most pet owners get their dogs and cats spayed or neutered, because even if you keep it inside, it starts expressing generally undesirable behaviors. Plus, the other option (unless one is breeding the pet, which very few do) from cutting off the testicles or ovaries, is to just keep the animal with its full mating drive intact in an environment where it can't possibly mate for its entire life.

A female cat in heat, for example, will become extra affectionate, start making noises, lick herself more, and go into mating position and spray a foul-smelling substance on surfaces. This cycle repeats itself every few weeks over the course of several months per year, over and over. Pet owners generally don't want that, especially the spraying of foul-smelling substances, and the cat is clearly desiring something she can't have unless she's allowed to mate, so a lot of cats and dogs end up neutered/spayed.

And I had a very, very horny parrot once. :areyoucra

Hello! Plx excuse me hacking up your post....

It's possible that you might (one day) need a pet dog. In the situations I have in mind it will certainly be neutered, it's very life will rise and fall with your own, it will be like a slave to your every need, whim and wish...... and it will love every minute of its life. Plx let me explain: In Britain we have many dogs who live in homes as pets.
1. Hearing dogs for the deaf, to warn owners of traffic, fire and other risks; to advise about visitors, callers, computer messages... etc
2. Guide dogs for the blind. Self explanatory.
3. Medical Alert dogs. To warn owners of impending epileptic seizures and other conditions which a dog can sense more quickly than a human.
4. Canine Partners type A: Who accompany owners everywhere and help them to cope with disabilities such as agoraphobia, crowds, noisy environments etc.
5. Canine Partners type B: Who accompany physically disabled people and reach up for them, press bell-pushes, carry items, etc etc.

There are more, but those I can remember now. Now, if you would accept that the above types of dog, in addition to your farm-hounds, hunting hounds, sniffer-digs, security-dogs, guard-dogs, police-dogs, cart-dogs etc etc are acceptable,

Much like farm dogs, I don't have any ethical issues with the above dogs that serve important purposes.

They're bred for functionality. It's closer to the earlier symbiotic human/dog relationships that developed due to utility. There are still ethical issues with the breeding/neutering practice imo, but the positives outweigh the drawbacks. Many dogs and cats are bred for non-functional purposes that end up having health problems because of how they are bred. In those cases, the humans favor external features over robust health of the animal, and then they usually cut the testicles/ovaries out as well. For example, I have known a lot of teacup yorkies in my life, and they are tiny non-functional dogs that all got the same health problems.

then Mrs Badger, who could not have children of her own and so focuses most of her love and affection on two little miniature dachshunds that we own...might plead 'Why, oh why can't I have these little darlings to live with me?'

I didn't say anyone else can't. I said I won't.

Also, I did mention in my post that if someone gets a nice pet from an animal shelter, there aren't really ethical downsides to that. So if someone really wanted a pet, I'd recommend going to animal shelters first to try to find an affectionate animal that needs a home.

And if you would accept her wish and understand it, then the next dog owner will make pleas, and on, and on.... until we are where we are now, with loyal canine friends and other pets around us.

The "if I don't do it, someone else will" argument generally is not a valid one. The same logic could be applied to factory farms and other things. People can't make decisions for each other; they can only make decisions for themselves. If enough people make the decision (for any given issue), then the result can occur.

 

[Knight of Albion]

Some instances, for example keeping birds in cages and goldfish in tiny bowls, are indefensible. And there are some other moral issues already touched upon.
But overall I am in favour of companion animals

Certainly on the spiritual level it has great potential benefits for both sides.

As Anatole France famously said "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened."
(And I could spin that around and say that 'Until one has been loved by an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened.')

That close friendship and companionship with one of another species gives you a different understanding and perspective on life, and the world around us, and those other ensouled beings we share this beautiful planet with.

Being exposed to love and positive association with humans helps the animal immeasurably too. For they too experience, learn and grow - the very purpose of incarnation.
And vitally they attain individualisation, which they retain after 'death'.

Animals have souls as we do, and are on their own evolutionary path. With love 'you' can lift their soul to the heavens...

All of which reminds me of my favourite excerpt from a NDE...
'Horses and dogs were playing together and when they stopped they seemed to stare a hole right through me and then went back to playing.
I was told they were checking to see if I was the person they were waiting for that had loved them while on earth.'

 

[Koldo]

Most pet owners get their dogs and cats spayed or neutered, because even if you keep it inside, it starts expressing generally undesirable behaviors. Plus, the other option (unless one is breeding the pet, which very few do) from cutting off the testicles or ovaries, is to just keep the animal with its full mating drive intact in an environment where it can't possibly mate for its entire life.

A female cat in heat, for example, will become extra affectionate, start making noises, lick herself more, and go into mating position and spray a foul-smelling substance on surfaces. This cycle repeats itself every few weeks over the course of several months per year, over and over. Pet owners generally don't want that, especially the spraying of foul-smelling substances, and the cat is clearly desiring something she can't have unless she's allowed to mate, so a lot of cats and dogs end up neutered/spayed.

And I had a very, very horny parrot once. :areyoucra

I barely know anything about cats. Never had one.

However, I know quite a bit about dogs since I have lived with them ever since my childhood. It is perfectly doable to keep dogs inside without neutering them. Many times people just want an easy and simple solution. So, rather than neutering their animals as a last resort, they do it right away.

 

[oldbadger]

...................... Many dogs and cats are bred for non-functional purposes that end up having health problems because of how they are bred. In those cases, the humans favor external features over robust health of the animal, and then they usually cut the testicles/ovaries out as well. For example, I have known a lot of teacup yorkies in my life, and they are tiny non-functional dogs that all got the same health problems.

Ahhh. Now, that's a very good point..... my wife works for a veterinary surgeon, and can tell you about scores of breeds that have very bad health problems which simply repeat from generation to generation. Everything from skin conditions to weak hearts, and on and on.

Our English bulldogs can no longer give birth because their heads are so big, and some vets specialise in cesarean-section births because of this. Nobody will stop this genetic deterioration because a bulldob puppy is worth £2000 and I know a bloke who has bred bulldogs for decades and charges £5000, sending most of his puppies, sedated in crates, to Japanese buyers.

And so......... yes....... there is lots of sin within the pet world, and the breeder's organisations, etc. This point is yours, won hands down. But please do let as many dogs and cats be neutered because otherwise there will be so many more euthanases than at present..... our dog charities have to kill thousands and thousands of dogs at present. I don't know the stats, but they would be shocking.

 

[Me Myself]

I loved having pet animals when I was little, but I can't justify it anymore. I can't buy a bred animal, have its reproductive system surgically neutered, and then spend resources keeping it fed and content in an artificial environment. So, I probably won't have any more pets.

If a farmer keeps a dog for practical purposes, or a family takes in a pet from a shelter, that seems all positive. Buying a bred little toy dog and cutting his testicles off, or keeping a cat and cutting her ovaries out, seems pretty wrong in most cases.

My dog has his testicles intact and he is still a virgin. He is what? 7years now?

Havent had any problems really.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

My dog has his testicles intact and he is still a virgin. He is what? 7years now?

Havent had any problems really.

The movement for vasectomies over traditional neutering is gaining momentum, especially regarding the feral cat population.
Vasectomies Could Cut Feral Cat Population

Getting snipped and tying tubes isn't just for people anymore: Vasectomies and hysterectomies may be a solution for keeping free-roaming domestic cats in the United States in check, a new study says.
Feral cats live in groups that are controlled by a dominant male. A vasectomy cuts the tube that carries sperm without removing a cat's testicles, so a vasectomized cat retains its sexual hormones. Thus, it can also keep its dominant position in the colony, so it's able to mate with females without producing kittens.

 

[Me Myself]

The movement for vasectomies over traditional neutering is gaining momentum, especially regarding the feral cat population.
Vasectomies Could Cut Feral Cat Population

He has never gotten a vasectomy

 

[Koldo]

The movement for vasectomies over traditional neutering is gaining momentum, especially regarding the feral cat population.
Vasectomies Could Cut Feral Cat Population

That's quite interesting.
Thanks for sharing.

 

[Quagmire]

My dog has his testicles intact and he is still a virgin. He is what? 7years now?

That may be even more cruel.

 

[Me Myself]

That may be even more cruel.

He gets quite. Pleasure licking himself anyways xD

 

[Katzpur]

I think most of these dogs have a great life, probably better than many humans, if there is such thing as an after life, I hope to come back as one of those animals.

I actually take such good care of my pets that their vetrinarian (who is an atheist) has joked that if there is such a thing as life after death, she hopes to come back as one of my pets.

 

[Penumbra]

I barely know anything about cats. Never had one.

However, I know quite a bit about dogs since I have lived with them ever since my childhood. It is perfectly doable to keep dogs inside without neutering them. Many times people just want an easy and simple solution. So, rather than neutering their animals as a last resort, they do it right away.

My dog has his testicles intact and he is still a virgin. He is what? 7years now?

Havent had any problems really.

Here's what happens when a cat isn't spayed:

[youtube]_gQFB_Utuf0[/youtube]
Cat in heat - frog pose and yowling - YouTube

Receptive mounting postures, loud vocalizations (especially towards the end of the video) to call a potential mate that will never come, and the video doesn't show it, but they spray bad smelling stuff on walls to attract mates too.

There are basically three ways to deal with that.

-Do nothing. Deal with the vocalizations and the bad spray. The cycle will repeat for years and years, with the cat calling out for a mate that never comes. The cat often will lose weight and sleep while in heat, and unspayed cats generally don't live as long because the stress and anxiety from constantly doing that without any mating takes a toll.

-Let the cat mate. Of course most cats shouldn't do this, because cat populations would explode. Especially because kitten survival rates are much higher in captivity than in the wild. Even then, that would only help relieve horniness in one year.

-Cut out the reproductive system.


When I was a little kid, my father bought me a parrot, which I had for most of my life until I found another home for her (went to college, and then lived in an apartment; can't have the parrot there, so she lived with my father for a while). We did everything we could do to make her happy- tons of food, tons of affection, and although she has a cage, the cage is never closed, so she can sleep inside of it where she feels secure and stay on top of it during the day, or occasionally leave the cage entirely. But after several years (you generally can't neuter/spay a bird), she became extremely horny. Every time I pet her, after a few minutes, she would turn around and lean over and open herself up in a receptive posture and start making cooing sounds and being visibly extremely aroused. Every time. I'd be staring at a wide open bird vagina and be like, "uh... could you not?" So that made me feel awkward when simply trying to pet her, and more importantly it made me feel bad because she clearly had a strong instinct to mate, and she never would mate, and was mistaking human affection for some sort of mating attention. So I had to make sure to discourage her when she did that, and eventually to only pet her a little bit on her head to avoid getting her excited. Bird owners sometimes have to do things to discourage mating behaviors or laying eggs, like carefully controlling the environment, avoiding certain types of petting, and so forth. Basically they're animals with fully intact mating urges that will never mate in the decades of their life. Kind of sad, overall.

Different species and different genders respond in different ways and with different magnitudes, but a common aspect among most pets is that they're animals that live in an environment where one of the strongest urges that all creatures have (sex, reproduction) is either forever denied to them or cut out of them.