Does Paul demand obedience to the Commandments?

[sandy whitelinger]

It is absolute, because it implies deeds without belief, which is not valid regardless of whether one practices the 'laws'.

Could you show me the verses which show the relationship to this verse that implies this?

 

[Desert Snake]

Similar to baptism without belief is useless, and baptism alone is meaningless, but with belief it is valid.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Similar to baptism without belief is useless, and baptism alone is meaningless, but with belief it is valid.

Show me the verses!

 

[Desert Snake]

Show me the verses!

Verses showing what? The Torah laws without belief don't 'do' anything in and of themselves, they aren't magical rites, Judaism and Christianity both require belief for any adherence to Torah to mean anything, they are theistic religions, the commandments, part of the OT, state as such.
Saul-Paul was writing to Christians, explaining why the 'laws' although justified by belief, are not valid in and of themselves, this isn't something new to the Bible, the only difference being that for Christians, they are not bound by the OT laws, except for the Commandments and whatever other OT laws Christians might follow for cultural or personal reasons, it has to do with the continuation of the Covenant, which I already brought up earlier.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Verses showing what? The Torah laws without belief don't 'do' anything in and of themselves, they aren't magical rites, Judaism and Christianity both require belief for any adherence to Torah to mean anything, they are theistic religions, the commandments, part of the OT, state as such.
Saul-Paul was writing to Christians, explaining why the 'laws' although justified by belief, are not valid in and of themselves, this isn't something new to the Bible, the only difference being that for Christians, they are not bound by the OT laws, except for the Commandments and whatever other OT laws Christians might follow for cultural or personal reasons, it has to do with the continuation of the Covenant, which I already brought up earlier.

So you cannot back up your position with verses. Thank you for calling and sharing.

 

[Desert Snake]

So you cannot back up your position with verses. Thank you for calling and sharing.

I explained the meaning of the verses that you provided.

You simply are not receptive to the truth, and would rather interpret verses in your own non-sensical way.


L'Shalom

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I explained the meaning of the verses that you provided.

You simply are not receptive to the truth, and would rather interpret verses in your own non-sensical way.


L'Shalom

If you insist.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I explained the meaning of the verses that you provided.

You simply are not receptive to the truth, and would rather interpret verses in your own non-sensical way.


L'Shalom

I've offered no interpretations, I've only asked questions. Now. Where are the verses? Point to the posts or the passages.

 

[Desert Snake]

I've offered no interpretations, I've only asked questions. Now. Where are the verses? Point to the posts or the passages.

That's right, so what is your point? I can't provide verses or interpret verses with no argument, I don't even know what you want me to 'prove'.
I don't think 'proving' things using verses is always optimal anyways, they're teachings, not strict guidelines, they're from a different culture and we don't even know why much of the NT was included in canon.

 

[Avoice]

Show me the verses!

I don't mean to interrupt but, these might help:

(Romans 1:17) . . .for in it God’s righteousness is being revealed by reason of faith and toward faith, just as it is written: “But the righteous one—by means of faith he will live.”

righteousness defined:
(2 John 6) . . .And this is what love means, that we go on walking according to his commandments. This is the commandment, just as YOU people have heard from [the] beginning, that YOU should go on walking in it.

unrighteousness defined:
(Romans 1:28-32) 28 And just as they did not approve of holding God in accurate knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mental state, to do the things not fitting, 29 filled as they were with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, badness, being full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malicious disposition, being whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, insolent, haughty, self-assuming, inventors of injurious things, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, false to agreements, having no natural affection, merciless. 32 Although these know full well the righteous decree of God, that those practicing such things are deserving of death, they not only keep on doing them but also consent with those practicing them.


closing note from Paul
(Romans 3:29-31) . . .Yes, of people of the nations also, 30 if truly God is one, who will declare circumcised people righteous as a result of faith and uncircumcised people righteous by means of their faith. 31 Do we, then, abolish law by means of our faith? Never may that happen! On the contrary, we establish law.

All these are taken from NWT version of the Bible.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I don't mean to interrupt but,

Please try and interject some coherence.

beginning, that YOU should go on walking in it.

unrighteousness defined:
(Romans 1:28-32) 28 And just as they did not approve of holding God in accurate knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mental state, to do the things not fitting, 29 filled as they were with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, badness, being full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malicious disposition, being whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, insolent, haughty, self-assuming, inventors of injurious things, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, false to agreements, having no natural affection, merciless. 32 Although these know full well the righteous decree of God, that those practicing such things are deserving of death, they not only keep on doing them but also consent with those practicing them.


closing note from Paul
(Romans 3:29-31) . . .Yes, of people of the nations also, 30 if truly God is one, who will declare circumcised people righteous as a result of faith and uncircumcised people righteous by means of their faith. 31 Do we, then, abolish law by means of our faith? Never may that happen! On the contrary, we establish law.

All these are taken from NWT version of the Bible.

Ok, now could you explain how those verses reconcile these three:
"...The just shall live by faith." Rom. 1:17 KJV
"... the doers of the law shall be justified." Rom. 2:13 kjv
"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." Rom 3:28 KJV

 

[Jonathan Hoffman]

"...The just shall live by faith." Rom. 1:17 KJV

A better translation is
"The Just shall be preserved by their faithfulness to the Law"

 

[Avoice]

Ok, now could you explain how those verses reconcile these three:
"...The just shall live by faith." Rom. 1:17 KJV
"... the doers of the law shall be justified." Rom. 2:13 kjv
"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." Rom 3:28 KJV

Romans 1:17: Johnathan says it pretty well.

IMV from that scripture, in context and in OT context, is one cannot adhere to the law without faith. The only sins I've ever committed were when fear overrode my faith.

Hebrews 10:26 & 27 explain Romans 2:13. If one sins i.e. breaks commandments, one is not acting in faith toward God.

Romans 3:28 the law here has to do with circumcision not commandments.

 

[Pegg]

Show me the verses!

this might help a little:

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you give the tenth of the mint and the dill and the cummin, but you have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law, namely, judgment and mercy and faithfulness. These things it was binding to do, yet not to disregard the other things. Blind guides, who strain out the gnat but gulp down the camel!” (Matt. 23:23, 24)

why does Jesus say that 'judgement' 'mercy' and 'faithfulness' are the 'weightier' matters of the mosaic law? Obviously its because these are the things that God requires most...they are more important then the observance of festivals or regulations given in the law, but the religious leaders at that time were focusing mostly on the observances/festivals/regulations. In Jesus eyes that was hypocritical. See Deuteronomy 24:19-21 & Exodus 22:22, 23


The focus of Christianity became these 'weightier matters' and we can see that in the writings of Paul and James
For example James wrote:
“The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world.”—James 1:27.

Paul wrote:
Gal 2:10 Only we should keep the poor in mind. This very thing I have also earnestly endeavored to do.

 

[Pegg]

Ok, now could you explain how those verses reconcile these three:
"...The just shall live by faith." Rom. 1:17 KJV
"... the doers of the law shall be justified." Rom. 2:13 kjv
"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." Rom 3:28 KJV

(Romans 1:17) for in it God’s righteousness is being revealed by reason of faith and toward faith, just as it is written: “But the righteous one—by means of faith he will live.”

(Romans 2:13) For the hearers of law are not the ones righteous before God, but the doers of law will be declared righteous

(Romans 3:28) For we reckon that a man is declared righteous by faith apart from works of law



Faith will motivate a person to live by Gods laws. Therefore, faith is a stronger motivator then anything else when it comes to obedience. Paul is highlighting that a person of faith doesnt need a list of laws to live by because the value of faith is that it draws a person to God and they will live by Gods laws regardless of whether they have a list of laws or not. That is why Abraham, Abel, Joseph, Isaac, Jacob were all servants of God...they had no mosica law, yet they had obedience to Gods laws through their faith.

How does a person of faith know that it is wrong to defraud, to lie, to cheat, to steal, to covet, to commit adultery etc? They know because their faith draws them to God and that connection with God is much more powerful then a rulebook.

 

[kjw47]

(Romans 1:17) for in it God’s righteousness is being revealed by reason of faith and toward faith, just as it is written: “But the righteous one—by means of faith he will live.”

(Romans 2:13) For the hearers of law are not the ones righteous before God, but the doers of law will be declared righteous

(Romans 3:28) For we reckon that a man is declared righteous by faith apart from works of law



Faith will motivate a person to live by Gods laws. Therefore, faith is a stronger motivator then anything else when it comes to obedience. Paul is highlighting that a person of faith doesnt need a list of laws to live by because the value of faith is that it draws a person to God and they will live by Gods laws regardless of whether they have a list of laws or not. That is why Abraham, Abel, Joseph, Isaac, Jacob were all servants of God...they had no mosica law, yet they had obedience to Gods laws through their faith.

How does a person of faith know that it is wrong to defraud, to lie, to cheat, to steal, to covet, to commit adultery etc? They know because their faith draws them to God and that connection with God is much more powerful then a rulebook.

I agree with Pegg 100%-- (except for the Mosica law)---mosaic law-- nice post Pegg

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Romans 1:17: Johnathan says it pretty well.

Jonathan makes things up as he goes.

IMV from that scripture, in context and in OT context, is one cannot adhere to the law without faith. The only sins I've ever committed were when fear overrode my faith.

That is all well and good but in context the subject is justification and how one obtains it and nothing in those passges or anything leading up to them speaks of following the Law by faith.

Hebrews 10:26 & 27 explain Romans 2:13. If one sins i.e. breaks commandments, one is not acting in faith toward God.

That section of Hebrews is talking about how much surer is the sacrifice of Christ over the sacrifice of animals. Explain to me how the subject changed for your interpretation.

Romans 3:28 the law here has to do with circumcision not commandments.

Please justify this with something.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

(Romans 1:17) for in it God’s righteousness is being revealed by reason of faith and toward faith, just as it is written: “But the righteous one—by means of faith he will live.”

(Romans 2:13) For the hearers of law are not the ones righteous before God, but the doers of law will be declared righteous

(Romans 3:28) For we reckon that a man is declared righteous by faith apart from works of law

What version?

Faith will motivate a person to live by Gods laws. Therefore, faith is a stronger motivator then anything else when it comes to obedience. Paul is highlighting that a person of faith doesnt need a list of laws to live by because the value of faith is that it draws a person to God and they will live by Gods laws regardless of whether they have a list of laws or not. That is why Abraham, Abel, Joseph, Isaac, Jacob were all servants of God...they had no mosica law, yet they had obedience to Gods laws through their faith.

How does a person of faith know that it is wrong to defraud, to lie, to cheat, to steal, to covet, to commit adultery etc? They know because their faith draws them to God and that connection with God is much more powerful then a rulebook.

Please show me the progression in Romans, up to the point of the last offered verse, that justifies this rendition.

 

[Avoice]

Originally Posted by Avoice
Romans 1:17: Johnathan says it pretty well.

Jonathan makes things up as he goes

.

He did a pretty good job of summing up the meaning behind the scripture IMV

Originally Posted by Avoice
IMV from that scripture, in context and in OT context, is one cannot adhere to the law without faith. The only sins I've ever committed were when fear overrode my faith.

That is all well and good but in context the subject is justification and how one obtains it and nothing in those passges or anything leading up to them speaks of following the Law by faith.

May I call you Sandy for the sake of brevity?

Anyway, If you've read the entire NT you will know that accepting Jesus as propitiating sacrifice and trusting in him and his Father, justification is a given. Paul speaks in Hebrews of how it is retained not obtain it and how it can be lost.

(Hebrews 3:16-19) 16 For who were they that heard and yet provoked to bitter anger? Did not, in fact, all do so who went out of Egypt under Moses? 17 Moreover, with whom did [God] become disgusted for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness? 18 But to whom did he swear that they should not enter into his rest except to those who acted disobediently? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of lack of faith.

The above verse ties sin and a lack of faith together. Reverse logic says Faith ties to a lack of sinful behavior or disobedience to God's commands.

Originally Posted by Avoice
Hebrews 10:26 & 27 explain Romans 2:13. If one sins i.e. breaks commandments, one is not acting in faith toward God.

That section of Hebrews is talking about how much surer is the sacrifice of Christ over the sacrifice of animals. Explain to me how the subject changed for your interpretation.

This verse set is to remind the erring believer, that, unlike animal sacrifice which became a game for many in ancient Israel, Jesus' sacrifice was given once and for all. To treat that precious sacrifice that saved us with such contempt is to lose the free gift of justification. Thus to treat it with respect and avoid committing sin requiring sacrifice is faith and justification.

I really don't know if these answer your questions. I hope it helps.

 

[Avoice]

Rom 1:17 For the righteousness of God in it is revealed from faith to faith, according as it hath been written, `And the righteous one by faith shall live,'

Rom 2:13 for not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law shall be declared righteous: --

Rom 3:27 Where then is the boasting? it was excluded; by what law? of works? no, but by a law of faith: