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Does Paul demand obedience to the Commandments?

Madcornishbiker

New Member
While I may argue about his theology regarding the importance of the Law and what "Grace" is, he does say this:

Debates about the Law raged throughout Christianity in the 1 st century, but Paul was very clear that works of Law were useless, and when the "Older Men and Apostles in Jerusalem were called upon to answer the debate about the Law, they came back with a very clear decision, as recorded at Acts 15:28,29.

This decision makes it clear that as Paul later said, the law was affixed to the stake with Christ. Though as Jesus said, He came not to destroy the law, so the principles in it are still valid, but to fulfil it, meaning that it is no longer a valid legal document. Hence the Apostles only carrying on those few points of the Law.

Now we know that "Sin" according to 1 John 3:4 is "transgression of the Law", as the definition of Sin probably didn't change between Paul's time and John's. Is Paul nonetheless exhorting Christians to continue to refrain from "sin" (Lawlessness ,breaking the Law and the commandments)? Did he mean some other "Law"? What does he mean in Romans 2:13?

Did he mean some other law? Yes indeed. Those who follow Christ are no longer under law but under principle, which is contained, as Jesus pointed out in the two greatest commandments. However it is also called "the law of love".

Being under principle rather than Law does put a much greater load of responsibility on followers of Christ, in making sure that their decisions are correct and in line with biblical principle.

Is Paul simply misunderstood about the Law by most? Did he actually teach obedience to it regardless of what he said about its importance?

Paul is misunderstood about many things by most, but then so is the bible.

The bible, as the word of God can only be a harmonious "whole" from Genesis to Revelation, so any apparent contradictions mean that we are not understanding things properly.

From Genesis to Revelation? Yes, of course. It is important to remember that both Jesus, as a faithful and practising Jew, and the Apostles who came out of Apostate Judaism to follow the true path. The only scripture they had to teach from, and teach from it they did, were the writings we now wrongly call the Old Testament.

Since the Law was no longer in force by that time what Paul taught could only have been obedience to the principles embedded in the Law.

Remember that God said long ago that He would write His laws on people's hearts. In what sense? They would live by the principles embedded in it, not by the letter of it. That also explains Jesus comment to the Pharisees on the very subject of overly strict adherence to Law, "Did you never read this? I want mercy not sacrifice??
 

Shermana

Heretic
Debates about the Law raged throughout Christianity in the 1 st century, but Paul was very clear that works of Law were useless, and when the "Older Men and Apostles in Jerusalem were called upon to answer the debate about the Law, they came back with a very clear decision, as recorded at Acts 15:28,29.

As I''ve pointed out numerous times on many threads, this "Very clear decision" is contested as a later interpolation by many scholars. Also, it seems in Acts 21 (which verse 25 was considered an interpolation by many scholars in the 19th century and their arguments were simply brushed aside, never answered for), it seems Jewish Christians are still obligated to hold the Law. Even FF Bruce agrees there's a problem with the contradiction between the Council of Jerusalem and Paul's account in Galatians 2.

This decision makes it clear that as Paul later said, the law was affixed to the stake with Christ. Though as Jesus said, He came not to destroy the law, so the principles in it are still valid, but to fulfil it, meaning that it is no longer a valid legal document. Hence the Apostles only carrying on those few points of the Law.

No, the decision if anything, if it's authentic, merely means that for gentiles the Law is just to obey those 4, and many view it as a "Starting point". That Law doesn't forbid marrying your sister or your goat for starters. Neither does it forbid stealing. Or slapping your mom.

If the Law was done away with altogether and no longer a "valid legal document", neither Peter got this message, or the Female disciples who obeyed Sabbath after Jesus was dead, or James in Acts 21 when he accused Paul of a rumor of telling Jews to abandon Moses, or John (In 1 John and in Revelation, as the saints are those who obey the commandments of God), or Paul himself when he says "As the Law says" in reference to women being submissive.


Did he mean some other law? Yes indeed. Those who follow Christ are no longer under law but under principle, which is contained, as Jesus pointed out in the two greatest commandments. However it is also called "the law of love".

And the "law of Love" is defined as SUMMARIZING the entirety of the commandments. All the commandments "Hang" on those 2 laws. Hence, not spitting on your mom is love of God and neighbor. Not disobeying Sabbath is love of God. Not marrying your goat is love of God.

Being under principle rather than Law does put a much greater load of responsibility on followers of Christ, in making sure that their decisions are correct and in line with biblical principle.

Jesus if anything was clarifying the original Law to explain how people had the wrong interpretations and hypocritical actions regarding it to its true definition. How is it a far greater load exactly if one can disobey practically all of it? What of the social commandments in the Mosaic Law were less of a load?



Paul is misunderstood about many things by most, but then so is the bible.

I most certainly agree.

The bible, as the word of God can only be a harmonious "whole" from Genesis to Revelation, so any apparent contradictions mean that we are not understanding things properly.

Indeed, especially when Revelation says that the Saints are those who obey the Commandments of God. And those commandments don't change.

From Genesis to Revelation? Yes, of course. It is important to remember that both Jesus, as a faithful and practising Jew, and the Apostles who came out of Apostate Judaism to follow the true path. The only scripture they had to teach from, and teach from it they did, were the writings we now wrongly call the Old Testament.

Well at least you understand that it was "Apostate Judaism", as in, an incorrect, misinterpreted version of the Law, and not the Law itself.


Since the Law was no longer in force by that time what Paul taught could only have been obedience to the principles embedded in the Law.

Apparently the Law was considered to be in force, clearly so by James for Jewish Christians in Acts 21, as well as "As the Law says" Paul. It was considered to not be in force by anti-Judaizers well after that time however.

Remember that God said long ago that He would write His laws on people's hearts. In what sense? They would live by the principles embedded in it, not by the letter of it. That also explains Jesus comment to the Pharisees on the very subject of overly strict adherence to Law, "Did you never read this? I want mercy not sacrifice??

How can one live by the principle without the letter? Impossible. The "principle" depends on the letter. You cannot have principle without the clarified concept. In your own view, you still have a "written" principle of what Jesus says. What Jesus was preaching was how to obey the principle of the Written Law, not that the Written Law is no longer binding.

Jesus also said to the Jews that they are to listen to the Pharisees for they sit in Moses' seat.

When it is said "I want Mercy, not sacrifice", that does not mean "I do not want sacrifices at all", it means that they were being done without a general agreement with the intended heartset and mindset. Blind obedience to the Law is not enough. Love is required as well. But love is not a replacement.

What is 'love" Exactly?
 

Avoice

Active Member
SandyWhitlinger said:
Ok, now could you explain how those verses reconcile these three:

Avoice said:
(Romans 1:17) . . .for in it God’s righteousness is being revealed by reason of faith and toward faith, just as it is written: “But the righteous one—by means of faith he will live.”
SandyWhitlinger said:
"...The just shall live by faith." Rom. 1:17 KJV"

One cannot be righteous without knowing that "God makes all things work for Good for those who believe". ( in Him)

Avoice said:
righteousness defined:
(2 John 6) . . .And this is what love means, that we go on walking according to his commandments. This is the commandment, just as YOU people have heard from [the beginning, that YOU should go on walking in it.
SandyWhitlinger said:
"... the doers of the law shall be justified." Rom. 2:13 kjv

John is speaking of the 10 commandments not the law of traditions as is Paul.

Avoice said:
unrighteousness defined:
(Romans 1:28-32) 28 And just as they did not approve of holding God in accurate knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mental state, to do the things not fitting, 29 filled as they were with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, badness, being full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malicious disposition, being whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, insolent, haughty, self-assuming, inventors of injurious things, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, false to agreements, having no natural affection, merciless. 32 Although these know full well the righteous decree of God, that those practicing such things are deserving of death, they not only keep on doing them but also consent with those practicing them.

Avoice said:
closing note from Paul
(Romans 3:29-31) . . .Yes, of people of the nations also, 30 if truly God is one, who will declare circumcised people righteous as a result of faith and uncircumcised people righteous by means of their faith. 31 Do we, then, abolish law by means of our faith? Never may that happen! On the contrary, we establish law.

In his closing Paul is speaking of the commandments in 31 above, Separating the law of traditions from the law of commandments in 30.
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." Rom 3:28 KJV

Law here is not commandments it is the traditions of man. (see Romans 3:29-31)
Avoice said:
All these are taken from NWT version of the Bible.


SandyWhitlinger said:
You are then trying to use this to say that obedience and faith are the same and that this is the reconcilition of the three verses I offered. It's not.

no, I'm not saying that: one cannot be obedient without Faith.
SandyWhitlinger said:
that is not a definition of flesh but works of the flesh. Flesh pretty much means flesh.
As I said the flesh is the source of the works of itself. Listening to one's own flesh above the ten commandments equates to the works of the flesh. Same as the flesh in my book.

SandyWhitlinger said:
I still fail to see how your verses from romans show that we follow the Law by faith. Perhaps I missed something?
Yea, ya did?
SandyWhitlinger said:
Are you implying that Paul does not justify his positions in Romans?
No.
SandyWhitlinger said:
Now, can you use Romans to reconcile those three verses or will you continue to ignore the question I asked earlier as to whether or not Paul can justify his position within the book of Romans with the book of Romans?

I think I've done this above. Shermana merely asked if Paul had asked that we obey the commandments.
 

allright

Active Member
In Romans 6:6 Paul says "we have been delivered from the law" In Roman 6:7 the part of the law he uses an example of being delivered from the law is "thou shall not covet" one of the ten commandments
 
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Shermana

Heretic
In Romans 6:6 Paul says "we have been delivered from the law" In Roman 6:7 the part of the law he uses an example of being delivered from the law is "thou shall not covet" one of the ten commandments

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

Are you saying it's now okay to covet?
 

allright

Active Member
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

Are you saying it's now okay to covet?


The purpose of the law is to control the flesh. A Christian is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and is to be led by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit never leads one to sin, but rather to follow Christ.
 

Shermana

Heretic
The purpose of the law is to control the flesh. A Christian is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and is to be led by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit never leads one to sin, but rather to follow Christ.

Okay, so then you're saying a True Christian will never break the Law?
 

dantech

Well-Known Member
The purpose of the law is to control the flesh. A Christian is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and is to be led by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit never leads one to sin, but rather to follow Christ.

You are digging a very deep hole with this argument...
 

Avoice

Active Member
allright said:
The purpose of the law is to control the flesh. A Christian is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and is to be led by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit never leads one to sin, but rather to follow Christ.

You are digging a very deep hole with this argument...

Telling the truth and being right often dig very deep holes.:yes:
 

allright

Active Member
So you're saying you CAN covet?


No Im saying I cant be judged by a law under an old covenant when I am living under a New Covenant by which the King has done away with the old one

By the way Abraham Issac and Jacob managed to please God without having the Law of Moses to follow
 

Shermana

Heretic
No Im saying I cant be judged by a law under an old covenant when I am living under a New Covenant by which the King has done away with the old one

By the way Abraham Issac and Jacob managed to please God without having the Law of Moses to follow

Okay, so where does your New Covenant say you can't covet?
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
No Im saying Christians are not living under the covenant of the Mosaic law so they cant break it.


In a sense they can break the Law-- if one has the required love of the new covenant--then one would never steal from their brothers or sisters, or covet their brothers things, or commit adultery with their brothers wife or vica versa--or have anything to do with false god things or murder them, etc. All of the Laws are riding within Love.
 

WyattDerp

Active Member
In a sense they can break the Law-- if one has the required love of the new covenant--then one would never steal from their brothers or sisters, or covet their brothers things, or commit adultery with their brothers wife or vica versa--or have anything to do with false god things or murder them, etc. All of the Laws are riding within Love.

Yeah... I'd say not doing nasty things even though you want to doesn't make you love; loving makes you not do nasty things. Being loved first helps with loving. The end.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
Yeah... I'd say not doing nasty things even though you want to doesn't make you love; loving makes you not do nasty things. Being loved first helps with loving. The end.



Actually Jesus taught for us to give the love first--even to our enemies. Jesus taught--return evil for evil to no one. So if one does evil to you--return love. Gods word shows it this way---- if your enemy is hungry feed him--if he is thirsty give him water--it will reap coals on his head. I know it isnt an easy thing for one to do.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
Okay, so where does your New Covenant say you can't covet?



Its all written on ones heart in love-- if you truly had the required love for your brother or sister--you wouldnt covet their things--you wouldnt steal from them-- you wouldnt commit adultery on them-- you wouldnt murder them--etc.
 
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