Does the non-existence of free will change your beliefs?

[Me Myself]

But the problem is in those words "making choices". It will all depend on how you define choice. I would say they are not really choices. They are determined by brain wiring and chemistry.

But if this was true, the word "choice " still exists. We gotta use it for something, right? I would use it for what a human is predetermined to do.

But the problem is in those words "making choices". It will all depend on how you define choice. I would say they are not really choices. They are determined by brain wiring and chemistry. To tell the world there is no free will is much too great a risk if there is even a remote possibility you're wrong. If the book is already written, no person can have done otherwise. He would not have any real choices to make (especially if you accept an Einstein block universe). No person can be at fault for anything they do. It would raise enormous moral implications.

So, if I understand you correctly, I had no choice in this universe but to disagree with you?

If you are disagreeing with me now then yes, you were predetermined to disagree with me now.

About the moral implications, it depends. I am a determinist and I try to be a good person

 

[NIX]

Take the videogame for an example then.

The video game makes a bunch of choices that are predetermined. So does a Chess computer opponent.

I doubt it will be very difficult to make a robot that buys clothe and even develops a sense of fashion.

I am merely telling you that saying "we make choices" is not really an argument for whether the choices are predetermined or not.

I doubt you'll be able to make the robot enjoy the experience though. Robots just do. They are not compelled by emotion. They are not excited by baubles, beads and bangles.

 

[Me Myself]

I doubt you'll be able to make the robot enjoy the experience though. Robots just do. They are not compelled by emotion. They are not excited by baubles, beads and bangles.

I don´t know. As an animist, I actually wonder if the robot would become aware. Is not like we could know the difference.

If we program it to appear aware, to act in every way as if in fear, anger, sorrow, happiness respectively, how would we ever know if it actually became aware at some point and felt this reactions?

The matter of consciousness is a completely different one though.

 

[NIX]

But if this was true, the word "choice " still exists. We gotta use it for something, right? I would use it for what a human is predetermined to do.



If you are disagreeing with me now then yes, you were predetermined to disagree with me now.

About the moral implications, it depends. I am a determinist and I try to be a good person

In this case, the word 'choice' refers to sorting, deliberating and tossing stuff in your (proverbial) 'cart', until the clock says 'time's up' or the wallet says 'time out'.

 

[GawdAweful]

I am a determinist and I try to be a good person

As Yoda would say: "There is no try, only do."

Even the word 'try' would become fuzzy in it's meaning.
No ought to's - just what is.

Your 'trying' would no longer be a moral decision, any more than a criminal that doesn't 'try'.

 

[NIX]

As Yoda would say: "There is no try, only do."

Even the word 'try' would become fuzzy in it's meaning.
No ought to's - just what is.

Your 'trying' would no longer be a moral decision, any more than a criminal that doesn't 'try'.

We will do what we do. Then we stick labels on what we did. Humans LOVE sticking labels on things!

 

[NIX]

But the problem is in those words "making choices". It will all depend on how you define choice. I would say they are not really choices. They are determined by brain wiring and chemistry. To tell the world there is no free will is much too great a risk if there is even a remote possibility you're wrong. If the book is already written, no person can have done otherwise. He would not have any real choices to make (especially if you accept an Einstein block universe). No person can be at fault for anything they do. It would raise enormous moral implications.

So, if I understand you correctly, I had no choice in this universe but to disagree with you?

It has been determined that religions and institutions with moral codes and governments with penal systems will not be on board with the deterministic model.
(at least not from the podium)

 

[Me Myself]

As Yoda would say: "There is no try, only do."

Even the word 'try' would become fuzzy in it's meaning.
No ought to's - just what is.

Your 'trying' would no longer be a moral decision, any more than a criminal that doesn't 'try'.

Sure, try is a fuzzy word. I dont have much problems with that.

About morality, I still use the word, but I see no reason for punishing beyond corrective behaviour, and corrective behaviour does not cease to work it´s psychological wonders simply because you are aware you do not have free will.

People make criminal acts because they like what they would gain and dont feel threatened by what they would lose. This wouldnt change even if they were aware it wasnt their choice.

I try to be a good person (as fuzzy as that is ) because it feels good, brings immidiate peace, pleasure etc, and good karma on the long run. It simply works for me. Could I have chosen differently than how I have? Nope. Do I know what I will choose tomorrow? not for certain. Even if I cannot change what I will choose tomorrow, I dont know what that is until I choose it.

 

[NIX]

Sure, try is a fuzzy word. I dont have much problems with that.

About morality, I still use the word, but I see no reason for punishing beyond corrective behaviour, and corrective behaviour does not cease to work it´s psychological wonders simply because you are aware you do not have free will.

People make criminal acts because they like what they would gain and dont feel threatened by what they would lose. This wouldnt change even if they were aware it wasnt their choice.

I try to be a good person (as fuzzy as that is ) because it feels good, brings immidiate peace, pleasure etc, and good karma on the long run. It simply works for me. Could I have chosen differently than how I have? Nope. Do I know what I will choose tomorrow? not for certain. Even if I cannot change what I will choose tomorrow, I dont know what that is until I choose it.

I think the word 'good' is fuzzier than the word 'try'.

But now at least we all know that 'choice' can be clearly defined as- "What we do".

 

[NIX]

Fun convo, but it has been determined (by someone else specifically-- unless you break it all the way down to all of my life choices (ie, the things I did) that put me here, at this moment-- due largely in part to all kinds of other things I actually didn't and don't have any control over....) that I must go and do something else for a bit. The outcome of the choice not to do so, would not be something that I would choose. Though I would chose to stay here chatting up determinism if my personal preferences could trump all of the other cards in my hand.

 

[Me Myself]

I think the word 'good' is fuzzier than the word 'try'.

Very good spot

But now at least we all know that 'choice' can be clearly defined as- "What we do".

I was taking it as that pretty much

 

[NIX]

Fun convo, but it has been determined (by someone else specifically-- unless you break it all the way down to all of my life choices (ie, the things I did) that put me here, at this moment-- due largely in part to all kinds of other things I actually didn't and don't have any control over....) that I must go and do something else for a bit. The outcome of the choice not to do so, would not be something that I would choose. Though I would chose to stay here chatting up determinism if my personal preferences could trump all of the other cards in my hand.

Where's the NEW DEAL anyway?!

 

[Me Myself]

Fun convo, but it has been determined (by someone else specifically-- unless you break it all the way down to all of my life choices (ie, the things I did) that put me here, at this moment-- due largely in part to all kinds of other things I actually didn't and don't have any control over....) that I must go and do something else for a bit. The outcome of the choice not to do so, would not be something that I would choose. Though I would chose to stay here if my personal preferences could trump all of the other cards in my hand.

You remind me of a book I greatly enjoyed that roughly translated would be callled "It doesn´t matter" (I dont know if that was the name for the english version though) . It spoke about determinism, a Rishi started the classes saying "Let your will (God´s) be done " and finished it saying to everyone "Do what you want!" (because it would be Gods will anyways )

When he talked to people to help them be enlightened he used this lexicon like "so your body mind chose to do this?" to reaffirm to the people that they couldn´t really control their actions. As he said "If you will not be enlightened, then you will not. You have no choice on the matter"

It was a very refreshing book actually

 

[GawdAweful]

This wouldnt change even if they were aware it wasnt their choice.

But it might change a 'good' person who now believed nothing was their choice.

No prob if you're right. Huge prob if you're wrong.

"corrective behaviour" will only work if the universe decides it will. It has nothing to do with any human endeavors. Science becomes a predetermined quest, with the answers you find also determined. Why do you believe the universe gave you the right answer if your questions are determined?

 

[crossfire]

Where's the NEW DEAL anyway?!

The cards you are dealt are determinism. The way you play them is free-will.

 

[Me Myself]

The cards you are dealt are determinism. The way you play them is free-will.

Well, your determined will is indeed given for free

 

[Me Myself]

But it might change a 'good' person who now believed nothing was their choice.

In my opinion then, he was only "good" because of his ego. He felt cool about being good. In some ways, this stops you from realizing what being actually good feels like.

(you know.. good )

In any case, this truth would probably also have another side of the coin. Having stress removed from their choices, a lot of people can naturally be better. Actually, this has happened to a lot of people that have accepted this simple truth.

No prob if you're right. Huge prob if you're wrong.

It´s not about them being right or wrong even. Whether they are right or wrong, jails will still probably exist. Whether they exist or not is going to be the problem for them. Also, they could have problems if they find out they actually develop empathy. They stop being "Good" because they feel superior because of it or because they are afraid of the punishment and start doing good because it feels pleasurable to be of help to people.

"corrective behaviour" will only work if the universe decides it will.

Sure, and in "free will" model it will only work if the reluctant person decides it will Still it remains: it will work sometimes, not others. In the large scale of society though, it tends to work.

It has nothing to do with any human endeavors.

We are part of the universe :slap:

It will work in the cases where it is predetermined to work.

Science becomes a predetermined quest, with the answers you find also determined. Why do you believe the universe gave you the right answer if your questions are determined?

Not following the question. The "right" knowledge is generally classified as the knowledge that seems to best describe the situation according to our view. Whether our view is predetermined or not has little to do with any of it

 

[GawdAweful]

It´s not about them being right or wrong even. Whether they are right or wrong, jails will still probably exist. Whether they exist or not is going to be the problem for them. Also, they could have problems if they find out they actually develop empathy. They stop being "Good" because they feel superior because of it or because they are afraid of the punishment and start doing good because it feels pleasurable to be of help to people.

Just so I'm clear on your view:

Society will be a better place if people do not believe they are responsible for what they do.

 

[NIX]

I have determined... I mean... decided.... that it's ok for me to come back for a bit.


(I have a sneaking suspicion that ontologically speaking ... well, I wish I spoke the language of ontology more aptly...)

 

[NIX]

But it might change a 'good' person who now believed nothing was their choice.

In my opinion then, he was only "good" because of his ego. He felt cool about being good. In some ways, this stops you from realizing what being actually good feels like.

(you know.. good )

Well this really depends on who is defining 'good'.

When you change a major life outlook, it changes You, and as a result, it changes choices you would have otherwise made if it had been determined that you continue down the road of your previous model.

Now whether the "old you" or the "new you" is more or less good? It is a subjective notion. Good for who? Good in what way/s?