Does the non-existence of free will change your beliefs?

[Me Myself]

Your ability to change yourself is in your nature. You still had to do the work, but you also just admitted that the ability to change yourself was part of your nature. You plugged into this innate ability and did the necessary work. Free-will doesn't mean freedom from doing the actual work. It's the stuff that gives you the ability to do the work.

Of course we have the ability to change our own nature, w chnge it to what we are predetermined to change it when we are predetermined to change it according to the stimuli of the environment and our genetic info.

 

[Willamena]

Of course we have the ability to change our own nature, w chnge it to what we are predetermined to change it when we are predetermined to change it according to the stimuli of the environment and our genetic info.

If all is predetermined, then ...where's the "change"?

 

[1137]

If all is predetermined, then ...where's the "change"?

Have you ever witnessed a storm roll in? Sunny one minute, cloudy later? There's predetermined change. Have you ever noticed how it will be light, then it will he dark? I guess the earth is freely choosing to rotate and create that change?

 

[Me Myself]

If all is predetermined, then ...where's the "change"?

In the immediate reality. Perception made a good example above this post.

 

[1137]

Misstating my position and then knocking it down is called a straw-man argument. {But you already knew that, right? }

It was not a straw man. According to what you said, a person with depression should be able to simply stop being depressed, at least if we can create / enforce free will.

 

[Falvlun]

It was not a straw man. According to what you said, a person with depression should be able to simply stop being depressed, at least if we can create / enforce free will.

Having free will doesn't mean you can do whatever you want. There's the age-old analogy that free-will doesn't give you the ability to fly no matter how much you want to.

 

[Falvlun]

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding your argument, but I think you may be subtly equivocating on the meaning of "cause", here. For instance, reasons are not causes of a neuron firing in the same sense that signals from other neurons maybe causes of a neuron firing.

I'm just pointing out that free-will doesn't equate to causelessnes. I don't think it's equivocation: there's "macro" causes and "micro" causes; both are causes, and determinists freely use both when describing determinism, so I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to as well. (Your neuron signal would be a "micro" cause. A child's poor upbringing causing him to be a delinquent youth would be a "macro" cause.)

But if you prefer your micro causes, again imagine that free-will exists. You choose something. A neuron fires. The firing neuron causes you to act. Hey presto! Causes still exist even with free-will.

Do you have any examples of a signal cause having more than one effect? Not in the sense of a single cause having multiple effects, but in the sense in which you mean it?

Do you have any evidence that they don't? I think this is my biggest beef with determinism. Proponents act as if it is the only reasonable explanation, and yet it is founded on just as many assumptions.

 

[Falvlun]

Free Will implies a doing without influences of the doing.

I don't think that's true either. We'll always have influences informing our decisions. The difference between free will and determinism is the rigidity; in one, you can only act in one possible way, in the other, it is possible to act in multiple ways.

 

[Falvlun]

Yes. That was my point. Randomness does not guarantee you made the choice. (the tree branch analogy) But a random world at least opened the possibility beyond the newtonian classic view of a clockwork universe. Randomness at least gives the possibility of some differnet outcomes that could be chosen. But you're right, randomness does not give us free will, there must still be something else.

As far as I've read, the indeterminism of quantum mechanics gives us, not just possibilities, but probabilities, which may actually be one step closer to determinism...but still something for free will to work with.

As for scientific confirmation of determinism, why should we believe the universe has determined to give us the right answers to our determined questions?

Exactly! I have never seen anyone else reflect my views so closely.

 

[crossfire]

It was not a straw man. According to what you said, a person with depression should be able to simply stop being depressed, at least if we can create / enforce free will.

Where did I say that?

 

[1137]

Where did I say that?

That's how I interpreted this;

Really? What causes you to do things you don't want to do? Do you do things when you are angry that you don't want to do? Then work on your anger. Do you do things you don't want to do out of jealousy? Then work on your jealousy.

Know thyself, develop self-control, and change the habits/patterns in your mind that interfere with your ability to make the choices you really want to make. Little steps really do go a long ways towards freeing yourself from these hindrances.

 

[Willamena]

Have you ever witnessed a storm roll in? Sunny one minute, cloudy later? There's predetermined change. Have you ever noticed how it will be light, then it will he dark? I guess the earth is freely choosing to rotate and create that change?

Was the storm as inevitable before the sunny day as after? If so, predetermination (that the storm was decided in advance) guarantees that the overall picture has not changed one bit.

 

[crossfire]

Having free will doesn't mean you can do whatever you want. There's the age-old analogy that free-will doesn't give you the ability to fly no matter how much you want to.

You still have the capacity to imagine something that will allow you to fly, design it, build it, and learn to operate it. You still have to do the work. We have airplanes, hot air balloons, etc, that now allow us to fly.

 

[crossfire]

That's how I interpreted this;

Really? What causes you to do things you don't want to do? Do you do things when you are angry that you don't want to do? Then work on your anger. Do you do things you don't want to do out of jealousy? Then work on your jealousy.

Know thyself, develop self-control, and change the habits/patterns in your mind that interfere with your ability to make the choices you really want to make. Little steps really do go a long ways towards freeing yourself from these hindrances.

I specifically stated you needed to do work. How did you miss that?
Work is not necessarily all mental--there is such a thing as physical labor as well.
If a hindrance has a physical component, then of course it would require physical (mechanistic) work. If a hindrance has a mental component, it would require psychological work.
With the neutralization of each hindrance, you open up a greater range of possibilities in which you can act and work. Greater possibilities means greater freedom.

 

[Me Myself]

Was the storm as inevitable before the sunny day as after? If so, predetermination (that the storm was decided in advance) guarantees that the overall picture has not changed one bit.

You can look at like that if you wish, but you can also say that change only exists in the present, and in that way we would still have what we call change and determinism.

And yes, the storm was always inevitable if it happened.

 

[Me Myself]

Yes. That was my point. Randomness does not guarantee you made the choice. (the tree branch analogy) But a random world at least opened the possibility beyond the newtonian classic view of a clockwork universe. Randomness at least gives the possibility of some differnet outcomes that could be chosen. But you're right, randomness does not give us free will, there must still be something else.

As far as I've read, the indeterminism of quantum mechanics gives us, not just possibilities, but probabilities, which may actually be one step closer to determinism...but still something for free will to work with.

Just because we dont know about it. "randomness" is nothing but unknown order.

If you throw a dice, you could say the number will be "random", but truth is it will completely depend on the strength with which you threw it, the wind, the floor, the material of the dice, etc. The reason this is "random" is because you do not know the outcome, but the dice does not have free will. The result will be exactly what the factors make it.

 

[Willamena]

Just because we dont know about it. "randomness" is nothing but unknown order.

If you throw a dice, you could say the number will be "random", but truth is it will completely depend on the strength with which you threw it, the wind, the floor, the material of the dice, etc. The reason this is "random" is because you do not know the outcome, but the dice does not have free will. The result will be exactly what the factors make it.

But you can decide the outcome of some things in advance.

 

[GawdAweful]

Just because we dont know about it. "randomness" is nothing but unknown order.

If you throw a dice, you could say the number will be "random", but truth is it will completely depend on the strength with which you threw it, the wind, the floor, the material of the dice, etc. The reason this is "random" is because you do not know the outcome, but the dice does not have free will. The result will be exactly what the factors make it.

At the quantum level, all those forces, positions, wind, and material of the dice exist in a potential state and are completely random until interacting with something else in the universe. It may be deterministic if the Multiverse is true, but even so, in any of the individual realities, the next step around the corner is completely random.

 

[Me Myself]

At the quantum level, all those forces, positions, wind, and material of the dice exist in a potential state and are completely random until interacting with something else in the universe. It may be deterministic if the Multiverse is true, but even so, in any of the individual realities, the next step around the corner is completely random.

I don't see how what you are saying is relevant to the discussion now.

How much of what you say is 100% accepted by the total scientific community right now BTW?

 

[GawdAweful]

I don't see how what you are saying is relevant to the discussion now.

How much of what you say is 100% accepted by the total scientific community right now BTW?

It's as relevant as the dice analogy. Einstein said "God does not play dice" with the universe because he refused to believe the then accepted view of QM. If there is no true randomness, then free will is not even possible. Einstein opted for a deterministic universe. (It may turn out that way after all)

But as you indicated there is no current 100% consensus on the interpretation of QM, and until the outcome is decided, if it ever can be, experiments allow for a universe where God truly does throw dice, which, in my opinion, is neccessary for free will.