Free Will implies a doing without influences of the doing.
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Does the non-existence of free will change your beliefs?
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Free Will implies a doing without influences of the doing.
Amechania
Daimona of the Helpless
I would guess that in a self-organizing universe predicated on chance free-will would be the rule. In a pre-determined universe predicated on design free-will would be the exception. Perhaps the universe was designed with a randomness clause, leaving much inevitable while some things are left floating like a feather in the wind, Forrest.
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Can you give an example of randomness existing?
The double slit experiment has no bearing on free will.
It does on indeterminism and causation. You keep going on about causation the need for a lack of causation for free-will, but you haven't explored indeterminism and the role of the observer (measuring/judging.)
Are you suggesting that the quantum world is random? The double slit experiment deals with the quantum world, we live at the atomic level. And even so, the quantum world is likely bound to mechanical and deterministic laws we simply do not know. In the double slit experiment there is clear cause and effect anyways, so I fail to see your point.
Anyways, if you want to debate free will start a thread and I'll join.
When the photon passes through both slits at once and creates an interference pattern with itself, is that not an example of indeterminism? (They've also done the experiment with bucky balls, so it is not just a quantum thing.)
LOL, I think you can see what the non-existence of free-will would do to my beliefs--I'd create free-will if it didn't already exist.
It's an example of the laws of reality being more complex than we originally believed.
Bravo. :clapLOL, I think you can see what the non-existence of free-will would do to my beliefs--I'd create free-will if it didn't already exist.
LOL, I think you can see what the non-existence of free-will would do to my beliefs--I'd create free-will if it didn't already exist.
How would you create free will?
By neutralizing the effects that stand in the way of free will.
Impossible.
Really? What causes you to do things you don't want to do? Do you do things when you are angry that you don't want to do? Then work on your anger. Do you do things you don't want to do out of jealousy? Then work on your jealousy.
Know thyself, develop self-control, and change the habits/patterns in your mind that interfere with your ability to make the choices you really want to make. Little steps really do go a long ways towards freeing yourself from these hindrances.
GawdAweful
Pseudo-Philosopher
Yes. That was my point. Randomness does not guarantee you made the choice. (the tree branch analogy) But a random world at least opened the possibility beyond the newtonian classic view of a clockwork universe. Randomness at least gives the possibility of some differnet outcomes that could be chosen. But you're right, randomness does not give us free will, there must still be something else.
As far as I've read, the indeterminism of quantum mechanics gives us, not just possibilities, but probabilities, which may actually be one step closer to determinism...but still something for free will to work with.
As for scientific confirmation of determinism, why should we believe the universe has determined to give us the right answers to our determined questions?
Isn't it curious how the anomalous things we find are more interesting to study than the things that are easily explained? Were we programmed that way?
None of this would grant us free will. In fact, it would be in our nature to change or remain the same. Even the decision to work on your anger would not be a free choice. Sure the power of the mind os fantastic, I got sober on my own will power... But it was in my nature to do so. My genes, the way my mind works, there was never a choice of how it would go down. We cannot cure depression, but by your naive reasoning we should be able to just choose not to be depressed. Well, it doesn't work like that. There is no possible way that you could bring about free will.
And there you have the antithesis of free will: not determinism, but fate.
Alright, it would grant us greater freedom of will.
Why not?
Your ability to change yourself is in your nature. You still had to do the work, but you also just admitted that the ability to change yourself was part of your nature. You plugged into this innate ability and did the necessary work. Free-will doesn't mean freedom from doing the actual work. It's the stuff that gives you the ability to do the work.
Please show me where I wrote that. I wrote that freeing yourself of hindrances takes work.
Misstating my position and then knocking it down is called a straw-man argument. {But you already knew that, right?
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Me Myself
Back to my username
That´s exactly why it doesn't exist.