All influences.
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Does the non-existence of free will change your beliefs?
- Thread starter 1137
- Start date
All influences.
Me Myself
Back to my username
Sure, like the factors that influence whether a tornado will spin right or left and where.
Do you believe we have free will?
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
To The Doors of Perception:- Hi.
So you want us to consider (amongst other stuff) two things? 1. No free will. 2. Yet we get punished if we don't believe in God?
I don't think that any living creature will be punished because it didn't know about or believe in God. A simple person with a learning difficulty might have little free will about what he/she can figure out, but has every chance of happiness, contentment and 'heaven'. The concept that God made us to be subjected to some 'do you believe?' quiz in order to attain 'heaven' seems odd (utterly crazy)to me. And non of us have full-free-will because we will die when fate decides so, in fact, the 'cutting edge of time' rules 'in total'.
As for Abrahamic faiths and religions, this concept of 'believe or burn' seems to be losing ground at last. How Christians, for example, could believe that they could loot, pillage, steal, enslave, war and overrun other races.... on top of what they did to each other..... and still make the haven of heaven because they believed is just mind searingly bogglingly nuts... to me.
So........ The fate bit sounds about right, and the 'believe or burn' bit is just wobblingly bonkers. And 'No', the fact that I have sod-all choice about the next second in time cannot alter my belief about the God of everythingness and the God of nothingness.
So you want us to consider (amongst other stuff) two things? 1. No free will. 2. Yet we get punished if we don't believe in God?
I don't think that any living creature will be punished because it didn't know about or believe in God. A simple person with a learning difficulty might have little free will about what he/she can figure out, but has every chance of happiness, contentment and 'heaven'. The concept that God made us to be subjected to some 'do you believe?' quiz in order to attain 'heaven' seems odd (utterly crazy)to me. And non of us have full-free-will because we will die when fate decides so, in fact, the 'cutting edge of time' rules 'in total'.
As for Abrahamic faiths and religions, this concept of 'believe or burn' seems to be losing ground at last. How Christians, for example, could believe that they could loot, pillage, steal, enslave, war and overrun other races.... on top of what they did to each other..... and still make the haven of heaven because they believed is just mind searingly bogglingly nuts... to me.
So........ The fate bit sounds about right, and the 'believe or burn' bit is just wobblingly bonkers. And 'No', the fact that I have sod-all choice about the next second in time cannot alter my belief about the God of everythingness and the God of nothingness.
1. Yes. 2. Was simply an example, I did not want you to consider it if it does not apply to you.
GawdAweful
Pseudo-Philosopher
Yes I do. Unlike Pascal's wager, the free will wager is a neccessary logic. The consequences of being wrong are insurmountable.
If we believe in free will and it exists then it's win/win
If we don't believe in free will and it does exist, the consequences to our justice and moral institutions will be at risk.
If we believe free will does not exist or believe it does AND it really is an illusion - well we had no choice either way.
"We must believe in free will - we have no choice." -Isaac Bashevis Singer
Me Myself
Back to my username
Of course we would have a choice. The one we pick, whatever it is.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
To Doors of Perception:- You wrote:- 1. Yes. 2. Was simply an example, I did not want you to consider it if it does not apply to you.
I'm cool with 1. This 'second in time' we have no choice about 'what happens next'. Further to this, scientists have shown that our 'mindset' is governed by our bodily condition, metabolic balance and surrounding influences. Having written that, I do have some 'thought' and have come to believe in 2 Gods. I may not have had free will about this, because it has always seemed 'obvious' to me that there is one God of everything and another God of nothingness. I had no choice about that......... it seemed obvious to my mind. Yep...... I had no choice.
I'm cool with 1. This 'second in time' we have no choice about 'what happens next'. Further to this, scientists have shown that our 'mindset' is governed by our bodily condition, metabolic balance and surrounding influences. Having written that, I do have some 'thought' and have come to believe in 2 Gods. I may not have had free will about this, because it has always seemed 'obvious' to me that there is one God of everything and another God of nothingness. I had no choice about that......... it seemed obvious to my mind. Yep...... I had no choice.
GawdAweful
Pseudo-Philosopher
But is that choice real or an illusion? A choice that is an illusion is not a choice. It just seems like it is.
Without something transcendant beyond the laws of this universe/multiverse the most we can hope for is unpredictable randomness diguising itself as 'choice'.
Randomness actually supports choice. Deterministic reality supports determinsm. There is no randomness nor free will. It seems that there could be laws beyond the universe perhaps the multiverse, but no laws that are free from all reality. It seems likely that we live in a reality that is 100% deterministic, absolutely free of randomness as well as choice.
Does the non existence of free will change my beliefs?
I treat 'belief' very loosely. I tend to 'believe what I will', if you will.
Now, and this is a late night bonus question, does the non existence of belief change my freedom to will*?
*want, desire, imagine, generate things
I treat 'belief' very loosely. I tend to 'believe what I will', if you will.
Now, and this is a late night bonus question, does the non existence of belief change my freedom to will*?
*want, desire, imagine, generate things
Are you certain about that 100% determinism? A perfect circle cannot exist in the physical world due to quantum fluctuations, but we can certainly picture a perfect circle in our minds.
How is that an argument against complete determinism...?
GawdAweful
Pseudo-Philosopher
Well, randomness at least gives the possibility of choice. The location of a tree branch might be random but certainly not it's choice.
Agreed on the "no laws free from all reality." That's the reason emergence can never work as an explanation for free will.
But I believe in free will all the same. And if that means I must believe in something transcendant, then it must be.
Things can't always be the way we picture them. The disconnect between ideal and material realms rules out any 100% absolutes.
I dunno. If it were proven somehow, evidence on the table, that free will doesn't exist, I think that would hit people really hard. Right now, it's fine to toy with the idea and tell yourself it's probably not real, but I don't think people really believe that. Freewill just feels too real. But the evidence on the table would destroy that little trick of the mind, and you wouldn't be able to shelter in it anymore.
It would be like the Matrix. If you knew you were in the Matrix, would you still be able to enjoy that steak?
As for your question regarding God, and whether it would be just for him to punish people for not believing even if they don't have free-will, well, we'd still have to punish criminals. We'd still have to lock them up, even though it's not their fault, in order to keep the streets safe. Maybe that's the same way with God.
I don't believe that causelessness is required for freewill.