Does the Soul Exist?

[George-ananda]

Where is the evidence that these events actually occurred and aren't made up stories?

I've seen regular looking people speaking of such things on video and TV many times. I have read many books from serious authors.

I suppose they could all be liars and 'made up stories' (as you put it) but in my opinion I wouldn't give that much more than just the distant remotest chance.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

I've seen regular looking people speaking of such things on video and TV many times. I have read many books from serious authors.

I suppose they could all be liars and 'made up stories' (as you put it) but in my opinion I wouldn't give that much more than just the distant remotest chance.

That is probably where we differ the most. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and unconfirmed stories of supernatural experiences fit squarely into that category.

 

[George-ananda]

That is probably where we differ the most. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and unconfirmed stories of supernatural experiences fit squarely into that category.

OK fine for you, but the cumulative evidence seems extraordinary to me.

But I am more concerned with what I think is most reasonable to believe about the universe than I am with scientific physical proof of the beyond the physical (which may be an oxymoron). I believe science is great but its reach is limited at this time.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

OK fine for you, but the cumulative evidence seems extraordinary to me.

I would say that you have unconfirmed stories, not evidence.

But I am more concerned with what I think is most reasonable to believe about the universe than I am with scientific physical proof of the beyond the physical (which may be an oxymoron). I believe science is great but its reach is limited at this time.

I will be the last to tell you what is reasonable for you. All we can do is explain what our position is.

 

[godnotgod]

Not a good analogy for me, since we do know all about where the TV signal comes from - a human creation - I haven't come across anything in my life to shift my views on religions, life after death, existence of the soul, etc. I can accept I might be entirely wrong but I live and presumably will die believing that - just lack of any substantial evidence to believe any of this.

Admitting you could be entirely wrong, then why take the position that you do? Don't take any position; then you're free. Science still cannot answer the question as to how the material brain creates non-material consciousness. In some cases, it conveniently dismisses the 'hard question' of consciousness by simply stating that brain chemistry IS consciousness, and some go even further to say that consciousness is just an illusion, while both are using consciousness to do so!

 

[godnotgod]

Would you say that it is the brain that is focusing, and as part of that focus is produces alpha waves?

If that is the case, the brain is making the initial decision to focus. How can that be, since something must already be present for that to begin, that presence being consciousness already in place? If the brain, something must kick-start the process. One question would be why the brain would make that decision to begin with, when one of the main points of the meditative process is to subdue the mind and the brain, and then transcend both as a means of reaching a higher state of conscious awareness.

Consciousness tailors the brain for man to function within his environment. This mostly results in man identifying with a self in Identification, which is conditioned consciousness, the state of mind where metaphysical suffering occurs, partly because the self is in a state of anxiety over it's fate. But the state of unconditioned consciousness is transcendent of self, and is firmly rooted in the source, and so is not concerned with fate. It is free. The body comes and goes, but unconditioned consciousness does not come and go. Only conditioned consciousness known as 'I' comes and goes.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

If that is the case, the brain is making the initial decision to focus. How can that be, since something must already be present for that to begin, that presence being consciousness already in place? If the brain, something must kick-start the process.

The brain is present already, so why can't it kick-start the process?

 

[godnotgod]

The brain is present already, so why can't it kick-start the process?

Why would it, even if it could? And if it could, what is the mechanism? And if it could as a means of reaching a greater state of happiness and joy, why does it, in most cases, choose to remain in the state of Identification? Why not go into Absolute Joy and just stay there? It's because the brain has neither the knowledge nor the means to do so. It's function is to take care of how the human body relates to it's physical environment, while in the state of Identification as a self.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

Why would it, even if it could?

Why wouldn't it, and why can't it?

And if it could, what is the mechanism?

The mechanism is neurobiology, the way in which brains create, initiate, and spread neuron activity.

 

[nPeace]

I've been reading a bit about the brain and it seems that science is showing more and more that the physical brain is responsible for all thoughts, actions and processes. Even our personality is determined in parts of the physical brain. If the brain does everything, then what is the use of a soul? Since it has no function it is safe to say it does not exist. The brain stops working, you die. You don't miraculously enter an afterlife.
What is your opinion?

In my opinion, science is never complete, and it can never establish anything, because as we know, science itself is a study. So a lot of what has been discovered, though helpful to further studies, is still very limited.
Otherwise rather than the increasing of world problems - including those related to health, the problems would be rapidly decreasing.

Scientists continue to learn much about the human body, but still that knowledge seems so minute.
Thus they admit that they know very little about the most complex organ in the universe - the human brain.

Now the have discovered another "brain" -
Think Twice: How the Gut's "Second Brain" Influences Mood and Well-Being
Scientists discover there is a 'second brain' located in the bowel | Daily Mail Online
...not more complex... or is it? Who knows?

So can man in their limited understanding fully grasp the concept of the soul?
In my opinion - No. We need to look further than science for that.

 

[Trailblazer]

But isn't the nature of 'soul' universal to all things, 'all things' just being the differences in form, while personality, or individual self, is unique to each form? For example, each snowflake is unique, but all are composed of universal water. 'Soul' is that essence deep down that does NOT change; that has no form; that is Unborn, Unconditioned, and Undifferentiated, and is therefore universal to all things. In being Unborn, Unconditioned, and Undifferentiated, it is empty of self but it is conscious, and that consciousness is none other than soul.

The 'soul' that you have/are, is the same soul present in all things. Some just want to sculpt it into an individual and unique thing, as in 'my' soul vs. 'your' soul. It's a fiction. Personality is just decoration.

Let us not confuse 'things' with 'form'.....and let's not attempt to encapsulate essence into a limited 'thing' with form in order to make it palatable to the rational mind, when it is something beyond the reach of the rational mind.

Spirit is present in all living things but only humans have a soul.

The soul comes from the spiritual world and is united with the body at the moment of conception. We cannot know the nature of the soul but we can know the function of the soul.One function of the soul is to animate the human body while we are alive on earth. The soul communicates its desires through the brain to the physical body, which thereby expresses itself. The body is just a vehicle that carries the soul around while we are alive on earth, a place to house the soul. The soul is our self, our true reality; the body is just our outer shell.

The nature of the soul is a mystery no human mind will ever unravel but in a more esoteric sense the purpose of the soul is to know and love God and reflect God’s attributes.

“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths...”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159

 

[Trailblazer]

Perhaps we will have to disagree on the terminology then.

How are you getting on with the house situation? I've been motivated to make war on the weeds in my garden - not me personally - I got some soldiers in to fight the battle.

I am glad you got some soldiers... I need some of those myself.

I am not moving as fast as I would like but at least I am getting close to having all the bids I will need to select a roofer for the roof job... I have six bids and two more coming in this week. Eight should be enough for me to compare and choose one company.

After that there is more interior work that needs to be done after that but I can only do one thing at a time...

As for our yard, if you can call it that – holy moly! About a week or so ago we were missing a cat and so I had to go downstairs and into the cats’ fenced yard. Having not been in there for years, it has all grown up, trees and bushes, so I could barely walk through the jungle. The rest of the property is in similar condition, since the grass has not been mowed and no trees or bushes have been trimmed in years... I have decided to just let it grow wild because I do not have the time to even find a landscaper. We live in a fortress so nobody can see it, thank God.

 

[godnotgod]

Why wouldn't it, and why can't it?

I've already answered both those questions. It doesn't because it is not designed to make the decision to enter into higher states of consciousness, although, as I understand it, there are certain electro-chemical reactions that induce euphoric states, or turn pain off, etc. But those are not equivalent to what a higher state of consciousness can deliver; not even close. Suffice it to say that

The mechanism is neurobiology, the way in which brains create, initiate, and spread neuron activity.

If that were the case, wouldn't we have most people's brains deciding to transport them into higher states of bliss and joy? This would be the norm. We don't, except for those who, in most cases, make conscious efforts to transform themselves. There are other cases where there is no known reason for this kind of transformation. What occurs when this transformation of consciousness from that of Identification to that of unconditioned consciousness is that, amongst other changes to the brain, the neural networks get re-arranged. This is not something the brain is doing; it is a function of mindfulness and focused attention. Why does anyone need to focus their attention if the brain is doing it's job? It isn't for most people, whose minds wander from one idea to the next. This is the discursive mind, sometimes referred to as 'monkey mind' in Zen, not because it is unintelligent, but because it jumps around like a monkey. Meditation is one means by which monkey mind can be subdued. The brain is guilty of not paying attention as it should in an ideal state, and makes many kinds of errors in judgment. This is the flaw of the rational mind. But ultimately, if what you are suggesting were true, everyone's brains would already have delivered us into Absolute Joy, and have dissolved away Metaphysical Anxiety, but the opposite is the case worldwide.

Here is a link which explains some of the other changes the brain undergoes when meditation is applied:

Here's What Happens To Your Brain When You Meditate

 

[godnotgod]

Spirit is present in all living things but only humans have a soul.

Is it clear to you that you are unwittingly transforming a state of being into a thing you call 'a soul'?

The soul comes from the spiritual world and is united with the body at the moment of conception. We cannot know the nature of the soul but we can know the function of the soul.One function of the soul is to animate the human body while we are alive on earth. The soul communicates its desires through the brain to the physical body, which thereby expresses itself. The body is just a vehicle that carries the soul around while we are alive on earth, a place to house the soul. The soul is our self, our true reality; the body is just our outer shell.

Where is the connection between the non-material 'soul' and the material body? How does the material body contain that which is non-material? You see, the problem you are having is that you are creating a duality between what you call 'spiritual' and 'physical', where no such distinction exists in reality, such distinction existing only as a subject-object split in the mind. There is no such thing as 'a soul'. You are mentally creating an encapsulated idea about something that has no boundaries.

You are in contradiction when you first say that the soul animates the body, and then, in the same breath, say that the body is a vehicle that 'carries the soul around'. That is sort of awkward, if not ridiculous, wouldn't you say? The problem is that you see soul and body as two different things. It might help if you see intemporal 'soul', or 'consciousness' as manifesting itself as the temporal body, somewhat like water manifests itself as a temporal snowflake. That way, the unity of their relationship is retained. It is not the body that 'houses' 'a soul', but soul, or consciousness, which both encompasses and infuses the body, inside and out, like the fish that is born into the vast sea. By attempting to transform infinite consciousness into a limited concept called 'a soul' is to see The Infinite as a limited self. It's just an illusion of the rational mind, which does this as a means of trying to 'make sense' of something far greater than itself.

The nature of the soul is a mystery no human mind will ever unravel but in a more esoteric sense the purpose of the soul is to know and love God and reflect God’s attributes.

Then it would be prudent to transcend the limited human mind, as it cannot 'figure it out', nor encapsulate that which is Unlimited, mainly because there is nothing to figure out; nothing to grasp or get hold of. The human mind wants to see things in terms of 'this and that', or 'me' over here, and 'God' over there, when 'God' is inside, as close as your next breath. In fact, God IS your next breath.

 

[sojourner]

Show me any evidence that comes from someone without a religious belief or agenda regarding this. And show me any evidence for a soul existing. True we will unlikely agree.

Anecdotally, I understand that some type of study was done a number of years ago. They weighed people shortly before death and just afterward. The bodies consistently weighed a few ounces less. The claim was that it was because the soul was no longer present.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

I've already answered both those questions. It doesn't because it is not designed to make the decision to enter into higher states of consciousness,

What are you basing this on?

If that were the case, wouldn't we have most people's brains deciding to transport them into higher states of bliss and joy? This would be the norm.

Not if we are hard wired to take a more realistic view of the world.

There are other cases where there is no known reason for this kind of transformation.

That would be an argument from ignorance, which is a logical fallacy.

What occurs when this transformation of consciousness from that of Identification to that of unconditioned consciousness is that, amongst other changes to the brain, the neural networks get re-arranged. This is not something the brain is doing; it is a function of mindfulness and focused attention.

How did you determine that the brain is not doing it?

Why does anyone need to focus their attention if the brain is doing it's job?

Why would your brain have to change its activity in order to change its activity? I think that answers itself.

Here is a link which explains some of the other changes the brain undergoes when meditation is applied:

Here's What Happens To Your Brain When You Meditate

What does that have to do with anything? Muscles change as you use them, so why should the brain be any different?

 

[godnotgod]

What are you basing this on?

The fact that most of humanity is not in a higher state of consciousness. If it were, we would not be experiencing the world in its current condition, which is due to conditioned awareness.

Not if we are hard wired to take a more realistic view of the world.

LOL, we are already hard-wired via social indoctrination to see the world unrealistically, which is the reason the world is in the sorry state that it is in.

That would be an argument from ignorance, which is a logical fallacy.

Some individuals become enlightened without ever having undergone any kind of training or meditation process. In these individuals, there is no known mechanism which triggered their higher state of consciousness. In Zen, for example, the koan is the mechanism in at least one school. In another, it is 'just sitting', etc.

How did you determine that the brain is not doing it?

Most brains are, as I said, already hard-wired, ie 'conditioned' by social indoctrination to see reality in an altered manner. This is called 'Identification'. The meditative process rearranges the neural networks toward higher states of consciousness. The brain is not deciding to do this, otherwise it would, as I said, be the norm. The brain itself is not aware that it has been bamboozled by Reason. Only when the Subject/Object split merges into a single reality does it become apparent that it was in a conditioned state. IOW, it thinks that what it now experiences is the true view of reality. Imagine that you were raised from a child in a totally dark room. Suddenly one day, the door is opened and light floods in. Until that day, you did not know any other reality, and that includes the brain. Higher Consciousness is not about conceptualizing what reality is via thought; it is the direct seeing into the true nature of Reality as it actually is.

Why would your brain have to change its activity in order to change its activity? I think that answers itself.

Because the change we are referring to is the transformation of a limited personal view (that of 'I', or self) into an unlimited impersonal view. It is at the same time a radical transformation of consciousness while still remaining that of The Ordinary.

IOW:

"First there is a mountain;
then there is no mountain;
then there is"

What does that have to do with anything? Muscles change as you use them, so why should the brain be any different?

Within the conditioned activity of the brain, there is change and learning due to plasticity, but these changes are not the kind of change I am referring to. Understand we are talking about a radical transformation of consciousness here beyond that of anything the ordinary mind can even remotely imagine. It is the change from conditioned awareness which sees things as the mind thinks they are, to one of unconditioned awareness which sees things as they actually are.

 

[godnotgod]

OK fine for you, but the cumulative evidence seems extraordinary to me.

It really is. How is it that people all over the world, independent of one another and in different places and times, have pretty much come to similar conclusions about what what they understand after such experiences? There is some underlying source universal to them all that allows them to see the same reality. Why should it be any different? If all snowflakes could suddenly speak, and were asked the source of their existence, they would have to answer that it is none other than universal water.

But I am more concerned with what I think is most reasonable to believe about the universe than I am with scientific physical proof of the beyond the physical (which may be an oxymoron). I believe science is great but its reach is limited at this time.

"We create a certain theory and then there is the honeymoon with the theory. For a few years things go perfectly well. Then reality asserts itself. Reality brings up a few things and the theory gets into difficulty because we had excluded a few facts. Those facts will protest, they will sabotage your theory, they will assert themselves. In the eighteenth century science was absolutely certain, now it is certain no more. Now a new theory has come: the theory of uncertainty.

Just a hundred and fifty years ago Immanuel Kant came across this fact in Germany. He said that reason is very limited; it sees only a certain part of reality and starts believing 'that this is the whole. This has been the trouble. Sooner or later we discover further realities and the old whole is in conflict with the new vision. Immanuel Kant attempted to show that there were ineluctable limits to reason, that reason is very limited. But nobody seems to have heard, nobody has cared about Immanuel Kant. Nobody cares much about philosophers.

But science in this century has at last caught up with Kant. Now Heinsenberg, in physics, and Godel, in mathematics, have shown ineluctable limits to human reason. They open up to us a glimpse of a nature which is irrational and paradoxical to the very core. Whatsoever we have been saying about nature has all gone wrong. All principles go wrong because nature is not synonymous with reason, nature is bigger than reason."

Osho

http://www.osho.com/iosho/library/r...fcda0f-5bb?p=9811f0127585ca97f7545550839d0e8d

 

[Trailblazer]

Is it clear to you that you are unwittingly transforming a state of being into a thing you call 'a soul'?

In a sense it is a state of being because it is our being; the sum total of who we are as a person, our personality. But it is more than that.The nature of the soul is a sign of God, whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel; as such it is impossible to describe the soul in words which have limitations.

Where is the connection between the non-material 'soul' and the material body? How does the material body contain that which is non-material? You see, the problem you are having is that you are creating a duality between what you call 'spiritual' and 'physical', where no such distinction exists in reality, such distinction existing only as a subject-object split in the mind. There is no such thing as 'a soul'. You are mentally creating an encapsulated idea about something that has no boundaries.

The material body does not “contain” the soul, the soul is “associated with” the body while we are alive in the body. The soul cannot be contained and it has no boundaries since it is nonphysical.

“Since it is a spiritual entity, the soul emanates from the spiritual worlds of God, and it is therefore impossible to describe its innermost essence in words; it cannot be understood by human intellect or other physical senses.”
(AdibTaherzadeh, The Covenant of Baha’u’llah, p. 6)

You are in contradiction when you first say that the soul animates the body, and then, in the same breath, say that the body is a vehicle that 'carries the soul around'. That is sort of awkward, if not ridiculous, wouldn't you say?

It is awkward to try to explain the soul, since its nature is a mystery. All I can do is use analogies. I say the body is a vehicle that carries the soul around because as we walk through life our soul is always with us, since it is who we are. The soul is what is responsible for what the body does, how the mind functions, so the body is like a car and inside is the driver, the soul.

What I mean by “animates” is that the soul gives the body life. A physical body without a soul cannot live, but a soul can live (in the spiritual world) without a physical body. In the spiritual world the soul takes on a form that is worthy of its celestial habitation, a spiritual body made up of heavenly elements that exist in that realm. There is no way we can understand what that experience will be like, not any more than a baby in the womb can understand what life will be like outside the womb. Only after the baby is born does it start to discover the material world; likewise, only after we enter the spiritual world will we discover its mysteries.

The problem is that you see soul and body as two different things. It might help if you see intemporal 'soul', or 'consciousness' as manifesting itself as the temporal body, somewhat like water manifests itself as a temporal snowflake. That way, the unity of their relationship is retained. It is not the body that 'houses' 'a soul', but soul, or consciousness, which both encompasses and infuses the body, inside and out, like the fish that is born into the vast sea. By attempting to transform infinite consciousness into a limited concept called 'a soul' is to see The Infinite as a limited self. It's just an illusion of the rational mind, which does this as a means of trying to 'make sense' of something far greater than itself.

I agree that the soul or consciousness manifests itself in the temporal body, somewhat like water manifests itself as a temporal snowflake and the unity of their relationship is retained as long as we are alive in the physical body. Only after the body dies does the soul disassociate itself from the body and wing its flight to the spiritual world. As I said, the rational mind cannot make sense of the soul since it cannot understand the nature of the soul.

Then it would be prudent to transcend the limited human mind, as it cannot 'figure it out', nor encapsulate that which is Unlimited, mainly because there is nothing to figure out; nothing to grasp or get hold of. The human mind wants to see things in terms of 'this and that', or 'me' over here, and 'God' over there, when 'God' is inside, as close as your next breath. In fact, God IS your next breath.

I believe I believe that God is exalted beyond and above proximity and remoteness, since His reality transcends such limitations. God is one and alone, without peer or equal, self-subsisting and has no associates, no partners. At the same time God is closer to us than our life vein, since God is closer to us than we are to ourselves.

“That the heart is the throne, in which the Revelation of God the All-Merciful is centered, is attested by the holy utterances which We have formerly revealed.

Among them is this saying: “Earth and heaven cannot contain Me; what can alone contain Me is the heart of him that believeth in Me, and is faithful to My Cause.” How often hath the human heart, which is the recipient of the light of God and the seat of the revelation of the All-Merciful, erred from Him Who is the Source of that light and the Well Spring of that revelation. It is the waywardness of the heart that removeth it far from God, and condemneth it to remoteness from Him. Those hearts, however, that are aware of His Presence, are close to Him, and are to be regarded as having drawn nigh unto His throne.

Consider, moreover, how frequently doth man become forgetful of his own self, whilst God remaineth, through His all-encompassing knowledge, aware of His creature, and continueth to shed upon him the manifest radiance of His glory. It is evident, therefore, that, in such circumstances, He is closer to him than his own self. He will, indeed, so remain for ever, for, whereas the one true God knoweth all things, perceiveth all things, and comprehendeth all things, mortal man is prone to err, and is ignorant of the mysteries that lie enfolded within him….”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 186

 

[godnotgod]

In a sense it is a state of being because it is our being; the sum total of who we are as a person, our personality. But it is more than that.The nature of the soul is a sign of God, whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel; as such it is impossible to describe the soul in words which have limitations.
The material body does not “contain” the soul, the soul is “associated with” the body while we are alive in the body. The soul cannot be contained and it has no boundaries since it is nonphysical.

You are adding something to existence that doesn't exist. The sea is also associated with the fish, but the fish does not have a personal 'sea' associate with the fish called 'my sea'. If 'the soul' has no boundaries, then it cannot be 'A soul'; it is simply 'soul', but it is not 'MY' soul. You are creating a substantial, delusive idea called 'my soul' from a self-created principle that is the mind.

I say the body is a vehicle that carries the soul around because as we walk through life our soul is always with us, since it is who we are. The soul is what is responsible for what the body does, how the mind functions, so the body is like a car and inside is the driver, the soul.

You're making things up. Does the fish latch onto the sea around and inside of its body and think of it as his own personal sea? You admitted the soul is without boundaries, and yet want to make it personal to each individual. To personalize it is to encapsulate it, but that cannot be done. You are just forcing a notion in your head you call 'a soul' to be a reality. The only way you can resolve this is to first see that the self is illusory, and then to see beyond it.

What I mean by “animates” is that the soul gives the body life. A physical body without a soul cannot live, but a soul can live (in the spiritual world) without a physical body. In the spiritual world the soul takes on a form that is worthy of its celestial habitation, a spiritual body made up of heavenly elements that exist in that realm. There is no way we can understand what that experience will be like, not any more than a baby in the womb can understand what life will be like outside the womb. Only after the baby is born does it start to discover the material world; likewise, only after we enter the spiritual world will we discover its mysteries.

You don't know that any of the above is true.

Now, what if the case is that The Universe is a manifestation of Pure Abstract Intelligence, and that this would include you and I? This intelligence is simply projecting itself and playing itself as Everything, but because of your rational mind, you create the notion that the intelligence you have is YOUR intelligence, as seen through your ego, and which you call 'my soul'. It isn't. You are just being fooled by the illusion that is the mind.

I agree that the soul or consciousness manifests itself in the temporal body, somewhat like water manifests itself as a temporal snowflake and the unity of their relationship is retained as long as we are alive in the physical body. Only after the body dies does the soul disassociate itself from the body and wing its flight to the spiritual world. As I said, the rational mind cannot make sense of the soul since it cannot understand the nature of the soul.

Not exactly what I am saying. Water and the snowflake are not two different things; in fact, they are not 'things' at all. They are just water in the formless state being transformed into form. At no time are they separate or different, except in appearance. IOW, You are none other than That, just as the snowflake is none other than water. So, you see, I am not saying that consciousness manifests itself IN the temporal body; I am saying that consciousness manifests itself AS the temporal body form. At no time are they different or separate. Do not confuse form for things.

I believe I believe that God is exalted beyond and above proximity and remoteness, since His reality transcends such limitations. God is one and alone, without peer or equal, self-subsisting and has no associates, no partners. At the same time God is closer to us than our life vein, since God is closer to us than we are to ourselves.

You still see God as 'self and other'. This distinction you maintain as real exists only in your mind in a subject/object split in the state of duality. Show me where one leaves off and the other begins.

Who you are is none other than the very thing that is manifesting itself as you, but because of a flaw in the mind, you think that the thing that is manifesting itself is something distinct from you. Think about the drop of water returning to the vast limitless ocean. Can you see how the idea of an individual self or soul is empty?

"That which you are seeking is causing you to seek"