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Does the universe need intelligence to order it?

apophenia

apophenia

Well-Known Member
But how would you know if zen is 'an accurate representation of reality', unless you were a practitioner of zen, AND know the reality which you say it represents ?

Both would be required, wouldn't you say ?
 
godnotgod

godnotgod

Thou art That
apophenia said:
But how would you know if zen is 'an accurate representation of reality', unless you were a practitioner of zen, AND know the reality which you say it represents ?

Both would be required, wouldn't you say ?
Click to expand...

Zen is self described as 'a finger pointing to the moon, but not the moon itself', so it is about seeing, and not about who it is that sees. There is no such observer of the moon. IOW, it is not about my view as opposed to your view; it is about a universal view of Reality. It is for this reason that Zen short circuits the rational mind, thereby cutting to the heart of the matter, where immediate seeing is going on, without the interference of an agent of seeing; without a thinker of thoughts.

Pure consciousness, ie; consciousness without thought, is reality itself, so it cannot misrepresent itself. It is the very thing that it sees. There are not two things, but only one.
 
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apophenia

apophenia

Well-Known Member
The lyrics are very subtle, and explore the reality experienced by those who achieve 'non-meditation'

"Things"

I like to take things one step at a time
One foot in front of the other
I like to think things will all work out fine
And follow along behind those
One act play-things can give you a thrill
Guess it depends on the actor
Dreams can come true, but some things never will
As a matter of fact, those things are driving me crazy
Those things are keeping me sane
I like to take things and make a design
Keep a low profile. Oh and
I like to take things and put them to rhyme
Like those things that are confusing
And the things that seem so clear
And the things that seem so far away
And yet they seem so near
There are some things I have lost
And a few things I have found
Well it's so hard to keep track of things
There's so many around
There's so many around
And there's things we have to look for
And a few we never find
And we all have things in common
You got your thing, I've got mine
And some things they just happen
And some things you can plan
And some of those things you just can't help
But some of them you can
Oh, some of them you can

As a matter of fact, those things
Are driving me crazy
Those things are keeping me sane
Some things turn out all wrong
And some things turn out all right
Some things don't turn out at all
But then again they might
There are things that come too soon
And some things that come too late
It's the best thing to come too early
So you have some time to wait
Oh, have some time to wait
Well it's hard to talk with words
There's some things you just can't say
And it's best to leave some things alone
In case they go away
You can share some things with friends
There's some things we've all been thru'
Well it's things like this and things like that
And how are things with you?
Oh, how do you do?
You can hang things on your wall
You can leave your things around
You can mark some things 2001, and put them in the ground
And maybe later on, they will dig them up some day
And ooh and ahh, and 'how 'bout that?'
Who knows the things they'll say
 
apophenia

apophenia

Well-Known Member
I hope you noted the final verse. (no pun intended)

This demonstrates how Joe had transcended the normally perceived space-time continuum, with references to 911 made years earlier ...


You can hang things on your wall
You can leave your things around
You can mark some things 2001, and put them in the ground
And maybe later on, they will dig them up some day
And ooh and ahh, and 'how 'bout that?'
Who knows the things they'll say
 
apophenia

apophenia

Well-Known Member
"If you are beginning to doubt what I am saying, you are probably hallucinating"
- Firesign Theatre, 'Everything You Know Is Wrong'

And if you have any doubt that Joe is a finger pointing to the moon, read this ...

"Made Your Mind Up"

Stayed up all night waiting, thought that you might call
Half the night debating, seems like after all
You made your mind up
Oh, I guess you made your mind up

Damn these strained relations, makes me want to crawl
Top negotiations, feeling two foot small
Guess you made your mind up
Oh, such a shame to wind up

Staring at the ceiling, bouncing off the wall
But I guess you made your mind up

You and me forever, guess I should have known
Thought we'd be together, wound up all alone
Guess you made your mind up
Oh, such a shame to wind up

Staring at the ceiling, bouncing off the wall
Kind of had a feeling, thought that you might call
But I guess you made your mind up
You made your mind up

You made your mind up
You made your mind up


Here is the sutta put to music ...

 
Rick O'Shez

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
A good samatha session, then a nice bracing walk by the sea, so I feel human again. :)

I sometimes just sit and watch waves, after a while you sort of get inside them. Nice!
 
Midnight Rain

Midnight Rain

Well-Known Member
godnotgod said:
'Physical' and 'spiritual' are just concepts, just as 'foreground' and 'background' are. They're all relative, and in the final view, a singular reality. Unconditioned consciousness is the same as 'spiritual/physical'. We are all having a spiritual/physical experience all the time, but do not realize it, due to our conditioned consciousness being captured by the foreground, just as that of the fish is captured by his foreground. But we take it further than the fish: we discriminate, and then superimpose our discrimination grid pattern onto the background, ie; 'the universe', seeing it as separate 'parts', ie 'atoms', changing all the time.
Click to expand...
I get the physical way that you describe the universe. We see a chair. We sit in the chair. We think its solid but its mostly empty space and in fact the chair is not a chair at all but just a bunch of atoms which in turn are made of bosons, hadrons and mesons which are in turn made of quarks. And who knows what the quarks are made of?

But that is still all physical. I don't see any spiritual revaluation so far. How does this tie into your prescribed ideas?
 
Rick O'Shez

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
apophenia said:
Ooh, you dirty dog. Samantha is a bit of a beach girl then ?
Click to expand...

Oh I wish! My beach girl is old mother nature. ;)

Actually I'm a bit of an amateur naturalist ( not naturist! ) and I'm always on the lookout for seals and porpoises. A while back I hired a boat with some friends to visit a sand-bank offshore, there were hundred of seals on it, quite amazing to see. Some of them swum out to say hello. ;)
 
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godnotgod

godnotgod

Thou art That
apophenia said:
No, there are lots of things.

Joe Walsh is a zen master, and this is what he had to say about things ...

Click to expand...

What makes you say that he is a Zen Master? I don't see anything to indicate anything like that.

His use of the word 'things' is in the conventional sense. However, he only makes one reference to physical things; the rest are references to life experiences, as when he says: ' I like to take things one step at a time' From the point of view of the ordinary mind, 'things' are real; we mistake form for things, all form being interconnected and interdependent with everything else, so from the point of view of Higher Consciousness, they don't exist.
 
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