Double-blind Prayer Efficacy Test -- Really?

[Sheldon]

I already told you the difference ad nauseam

I already told you that the question makes no sense to me

Oh dear, so which is it? Is the question beyond your understanding, or have you told us the objective difference ad nauseam?

You have also had ample time to offer some sort of explanation as to why you don't understand such a simple question. So again the claim is a little dubious. Even without your blatant contradictory answers above.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Petty ad hominem and moving the goal posts is not a very compelling response, you disingenuously described abortions as involving a baby, and they don't. A blastocyst doesn't have a body, and the vast majority of abortion involved just such an insentient clump of cells. If you're arguing for abortions to be made more easily available, in order to avoid late term abortions wherever possible, then I would agree. However you're not are you, as you would deny a woman an abortion even where a blastocyst or insentient clump of cells is involved, ,thus exposing the sophistry of you using the term babies, as emotive rhetoric here.

When a woman is pregnant what does she say? I’m pregnant and I’m having a baby.
After 24 weeks is no question about whether it’s a baby and is fully formed so regardless of your view, the mom would have to be in danger of death or the baby deformed in some way to even consider ending the life. This should be a given. Then you can debate the rest before 24 weeks. Having a heartbeat well yeah I’m definitely right there for sure, after that too late to abort.

 

[Sheldon]

No, no one is gaslighting you. And you really have to watch the personal attacks. That one clearly crosses the line. You may not be able to understand the question, but that appears to be your fault. The question is probably causing cognitive dissonance to kick in. That occurs when someone with a cherished belief has that belief threatened.

Maybe we can sneak up on it.

When God says no, what does he say?

Does he say: "F off! That's stupid!"? Does he say something else?

Gaslighting now, the excuses are getting ridiculous. @ElishaElijah claimed all prayers are answered, then qualified it by saying some are answered with wait or a no. Now I pointed out immediately this looked like selection bias. However another poster asked him what the difference was between a no answer and no deity existing to answer. I then rephrased the question and asked if he could explain any objective difference, giving carte blanche to offer any explanation he felt achieved this, or simply assert it was a subjective belief even.

 

[Sheldon]

When a woman is pregnant what does she say? I’m pregnant and I’m having a baby.

Not I have a baby see. Not that this matters, as an expectant mother is not making a biologically accurate assertion, but then neither were you, which was entirely my point.

After 24 weeks is no question about whether it’s a baby

I agree, it is still not a baby but a developing foetus.

and is fully formed so regardless of your view, the mom would have to be in danger of death or the baby deformed in some way to even consider ending the life.

So you're not arguing against abortions per se then, just against the tiny minority of late term abortions, and only then if there isn't serious medical imperative?

Then you can debate the rest before 24 weeks.

Indeed I can and do and have, but it is not a baby until it is born and no longer a part of a woman's body.

Having a heartbeat well yeah I’m definitely right there for sure, after that too late to abort.

Why? Oh and a heartbeat develops at 5.5 to 6 weeks in the foetal development. It would still be part of a woman's body and thus her choice. The reason would be hers and not imposed on her by others. No one tells you what you have to do with your body after all.

 

[ElishaElijah]

No, no one is gaslighting you

Both of you have a habit of trying to question someone’s reality on issues just like the abortion pictures when you don’t look at all the abortion pictures.
Or prayer
Or deliverance etc.
You don’t ask questions you insinuate confirmation bias etc. This is all gaslighting

 

[ElishaElijah]

So you're not arguing against abortions per se then, just against the tiny minority of late term abortions, and only then if there isn't serious medical imperative?

I have a narrow view of abortion that half the population would not agree with, what I said was everyone should be able to agree with the tiny majority of about 5-6 thousand late term abortions that happen every year

 

[Sheldon]

I have a narrow view of abortion that half the population would not agree with, what I said was everyone should be able to agree with the tiny majority of about 5-6 thousand late term abortions that happen every year

If you're against all abortions then your post was pretty disingenuous, as it was a response to my post pointing out that no abortions involve babies. You then falsely tried to imply that post 24 week developing foetus was a baby, but now you admit you want to stop all abortions, and most of them involve a blastocyst. This is a blastocyst:

You then started talking about dismembered bodies, who knows why. The fact remains, abortions do not involve babies.

I am pro choice, as it seems immoral to me to enslave people by taking away their bodily autonomy, and absurd to grant a clump of insentient cells, the right to use a fully sentient woman's body against her will, and we certainly would not grant this right to individual sentient fully formed human beings, so why would we do this for an insentient blastocyst, or foetus?

 

[ElishaElijah]

Why? Oh and a heartbeat develops at 5.5 to 6 weeks in the foetal development. It would still be part of a woman's body and thus her choice. The reason would be hers and not imposed on her by others. No one tells you what you have to do with your body after all.

Yes they try with vaccines and other stuff like this, but because a developing human being is dependent on its mother, you’re view is she can end its life.
She imposed this on herself by the way and if there are so many ways to prevent pregnancy there is no real reason to use abortion for birth control.

 

[ElishaElijah]

If you're against all abortions then your post was pretty disingenuous, as it was a response to my post pointing out that no abortions involve babies. You then falsely tried to imply that post 24 week developing foetus was a baby, but now you admit you want to stop all abortions, and most of them involve a blastocyst. This is a blastocyst:

You then started talking about dismembered bodies, who knows why. The fact remains, abortions do not involve babies.

I am pro choice, as it seems immoral to me to enslave people by taking away their bodily autonomy, and absurd to grant a clump of insentient cells, the right to use a fully sentient woman's body against her will, and we certainly would not grant this right to individual sentient fully formed human beings, so why would we do this for an insentient blastocyst, or foetus?

Why are you insistent on dehumanizing a developing human being?
And yes my view is pretty clear, I am pro- life so when life begins that’s my view and for sure when there is a heartbeat.
So where do you draw the line?
When you try to restate my views you’ve been wrong, what’s that called ? You’re the fallacy expert

 

[Sheldon]

Both of you have a habit of trying to question someone’s reality on issues just like the abortion pictures when you don’t look at all the abortion pictures.

that's not remotely true, your claim was that abortions involved killing babies, and it never does, since a blastocyst or developing foetus is not a baby. This type of emotive rhetoric is the dishonest propaganda anti-choicer often use, but it has nothing to do with pictures. Also you're against all abortions, so it's you who is ignoring context, and focusing on late term abortions as if they are typical, when in fact they are relatively rare.

Or prayer
Or deliverance etc.

You seem to be implying we should accept your subjective claims about your religious beliefs, only this is a debate forum. So your beliefs will be submitted to critical scrutiny as will all claims, describing this as gaslighting is hilariously idiotic. That said I made no comment on your claim that all prayers are answered, but that some are just answered with wait or no, beyond pointing out the selection bias involved, and asking you to offer an explanation, any explanation, for any objective difference between what you perceive as a prayer being "answered" with a no, and no deity existing to answer the prayer, and you have pointedly failed to answer, and despite falsely claiming to have answered, you also claimed to not even understand the question, though I am inclined to find that a dubious notion I must say.

You don’t ask questions you insinuate confirmation bias etc. This is all gaslighting

Nope, you're gaslighting me now.

 

[Sheldon]

Yes they try with vaccines and other stuff like this,

Who tries what with vaccines, and what does this have to do with abortions involving an insentient blastocyst in the majority of cases, and a developing foetus, but never a baby?

but because a developing human being is dependent on its mother, you’re view is she can end its life.

No it isn't, you're gaslighting me now. My view is it is immoral to enslave people, and when you take away their bodily autonomy that is what you are doing. To do this to grant rights to an insentient blastocyst or foetus is absurd.

She imposed this on herself by the way

Not necessarily, but even were it a mistake a woman is 50% responsible for, so what? It remains her body, and therefore her choice.

and if there are so many ways to prevent pregnancy there is no real reason to use abortion for birth control.

Where have I advocated anyone ought to use abortion as birth control, oh look another straw man, you're gaslighting me again now.

 

[Sheldon]

Anyway I'm off to the pub now, cidertastic.....

Have fun everyone, and use precaution.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Both of you have a habit of trying to question someone’s reality on issues just like the abortion pictures when you don’t look at all the abortion pictures.
Or prayer
Or deliverance etc.
You don’t ask questions you insinuate confirmation bias etc. This is all gaslighting

I have seen plenty of abortion pictures including some of the extremely dishonest ones that antichoice people use. And you have to stop the false accusations of "gaslighting". That is an accusation of lying which makes it against the rules of the forum.

I gave you a very reasonable compromise. No abortions after 24 weeks unless it was a matter of the health of the pregnant woman. What was wrong with that?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Anyway I'm off to the pub now, cidertastic.....

Have fun everyone, and use precaution.

Wear a rubber? Well, . . . okay.

 

[ElishaElijah]

And you have to stop the false accusations of "gaslighting"

I suppose you should stop doing the gaslighting then. Start having a normal conversation instead making comments questioning memories, confirmation bias etc. when it comes to testimonies outside of your own personal experience.

 

[Sheldon]

Wear a rubber? Well, . . . okay.

Eyeizback, it wuz manic....but great...

 

[Sheldon]

I suppose you should stop doing the gaslighting then. Start having a normal conversation instead making comments questioning memories, confirmation bias etc. when it comes to testimonies outside of your own personal experience.

Stop gaslighting us, about gaslighting you.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I suppose you should stop doing the gaslighting then. Start having a normal conversation instead making comments questioning memories, confirmation bias etc. when it comes to testimonies outside of your own personal experience.

Sorry but that is not gaslighting. You have been asked multiple times how you have tested your beliefs. The facts are that memories are not reliable and if one refutes to test one's ideas then they are all but worthless after a few years.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Eyeizback, it wuz manic....but great...

Well that was quick. Meanwhile it is early in the day, but it is Saturday! I am enjoying this tasty little number. Not all that much alcohol in it. My vision may be a bit hazy but it seems to say 0.9% alcohol:

 

[ElishaElijah]

Sorry but that is not gaslighting. You have been asked multiple times how you have tested your beliefs. The facts are that memories are not reliable and if one refutes to test one's ideas then they are all but worthless after a few years.

So are you saying at 27 my memory about God delivering me in treatment is not reliable? If so yes that is gaslighting.
You can say you don’t believe me but that’s about it, but you go further in making a diagnosis like you’re a therapist and involved in what happened.
But none of the therapists in the treatment center thought it was my own doing, they all believed God intervened and delivered me, it was that drastic.