Double Slit Experiment

[viole]

Passive interaction, just receiving information, should not effect the process in classical thinking. That's why these results are considered mysterious; observation effects the process.

Well, it doesn't. You have to do something active to detect which slit is crossed, like putting a photomultiplier behind one of the slits. If you don't, then the wave stays as a wave.

If the phototomultiplier is there then the waves collapse. A tiny bacterium passing by through one of the slits, will also collapse the wave to turn it into a particle. Do bacteria have consciousness? Replace bacterium with a tiny speck of dust if you think bacteria are conscious.

Passive observation, like watching with your eyes from the outside what is going on, does not affect anything, independently of the amount of consciousness and meditation you might want to deploy.

Ciao

- viole

 

[atanu]

..

If the phototomultiplier is there then the waves collapse. A tiny bacterium passing by through one of the slits, will also collapse the wave to turn it into a particle. Do bacteria have consciousness? Replace bacterium with a tiny speck of dust if you think bacteria are conscious...

- viole

It is of course not about the consciousness of bacteria or a speck of dust or the camera. It is about the mystery of propagation of information. And as has been shown from Wheeler's thought experiments, validated experimentally, that a later event can alter the photons.

"Thus one decides the photon shall have come by one route or by both routes after it has already done its travel"
John A. Wheeler

Further as shown above, Alain Aspect from his experiments on paired photons concluded: "A pair of entangled photons should be considered as a global, inseparable quantum system".

Science has to work with known parameters and it is for good. Yet, can we say that the QM world is as per our sensual idea?

 

[viole]

It is of course not about the consciousness of bacteria or a speck of dust or the camera. It is about the mystery of propagation of information. And as has been shown from Wheeler's thought experiments, validated experimentally, that a later event can alter the photons.

"Thus one decides the photon shall have come by one route or by both routes after it has already done its travel"
John A. Wheeler

Further as shown above, Alain Aspect from his experiments on paired photons concluded: "A pair of entangled photons should be considered as a global, inseparable quantum system".

Science has to work with known parameters and it is for good. Yet, can we say that the QM world is as per our sensual idea?

Our "sensual" idea is not important.

Our intuition evolved to survive in a classical, three dimensional, slow world. We do not need to chase pray that runs short of the speed of light, or escape predators which are small enough to be in a wavelike superposition of states. If we had to, we would probably consider relativity and QM obviously intuitive.

All of our intuition, like the rest of our mental capabilities, is adaptive. That is, it does not necessarily support truth beliefs that go beyond our little middle-world. It just supports what is good enough to survive in a classical environment.

Alas, the rest of nature does not care about our little ecological niche.

Ciao

- viole

 

[atanu]

Our "sensual" idea is not important.

Our intuition evolved to survive in a classical, three dimensional, slow world. We do not need to chase pray that runs short of the speed of light, or escape predators which are small enough to be in a wavelike superposition of states. If we had to, we would probably consider relativity and QM obviously intuitive.

All of our intuition, like the rest of our mental capabilities, is adaptive. That is, it does not necessarily support truth beliefs that go beyond our little middle-world. It just supports what is good enough to survive in a classical environment.

Alas, the rest of nature does not care about our little ecological niche.

Ciao

- viole

Exactly. I agree.

I wish to add a few points. I do not agree to efforts of some to superimpose spiritual concepts on scientific findings. The problem is that combining two unknown-understood systems is not without danger. Many will jump in and say well science is perfectly understood. OK, but QM is an enigma.

However, it will be injustice to deny that many QM scientists point to some spiritual experiential knowledge, inherent in QM observations .. as noted above.

These spiritual knowledge have helped people to become balanced individuals .. have helped centre the volatile emotions and the mind, and have mitigated sadness and depression of many.

The most important spiritual wisdom in this respect is that the Universe is a single system with a self nature of communication/intelligence/consciousness, independent of the Mental-Sensual apparatus.

I know the hard nosed here will sneer. But it is also a fact that QM scientists have not rejected this. In fact, many pioneers have advanced knowledge towards this end.

Sorry.

 

[viole]

Exactly. I agree.

I wish to add a few points. I do not agree to efforts of some to superimpose spiritual concepts on scientific findings. The problem is that combining two unknown-understood systems is not without danger. Many will jump in and say well science is perfectly understood. OK, but QM is an enigma.

However, it will be injustice to deny that many QM scientists point to some spiritual experiential knowledge, inherent in QM observations .. as noted above.

These spiritual knowledge have helped people to become balanced individuals .. have helped centre the volatile emotions and the mind, and have mitigated sadness and depression of many.

The most important spiritual wisdom in this respect is that the Universe is a single system with a self nature of communication/intelligence/consciousness, independent of the Mental-Sensual apparatus.

I know the hard nosed here will sneer. But it is also a fact that QM scientists have not rejected this. In fact, many pioneers have advanced knowledge towards this end.

Sorry.

Well, I don't have any idea what "spiritual" means. I have a problem to see anything spiritual in quantum decoherence.

The fact that spiritual "knowledge" helps people to go through the day, or fight depression, seems to suggest that "spirituality", whatever that means, is a natural adaptation. A sort of immune reaction against nihilism and absurdism. In other words, a naturally selected delusion.

The same with belief in god(s), spirits, universal consciousness, etc.

Ciao

- viole

 

[atanu]

Well, I don't have any idea what "spiritual" means.

In light of above statement, what follow below are some good knowledge.:yes:

I have a problem to see anything spiritual in quantum decoherence.

------, a naturally selected delusion.

The same with belief in god(s), spirits, universal consciousness, etc.

- viole

 

[Runewolf1973]

Rather than going lengths to prove that anything is spiritual in nature, including consciousness, or such things as ghosts, I believe that quantum physics will eventually show us that those things which people thought were spiritual are in fact physical. Even as an animist and someone who practices shamanic healing, I would have to say that there is no spiritual side to anything. It is all physical, which at times gives the illusion of being spiritual.

 

[atanu]

Rather than going lengths to prove that anything is spiritual in nature, including consciousness, or such things as ghosts, I believe that quantum physics will eventually show us that those things which people thought were spiritual are in fact physical. Even as an animist and someone who practices shamanic healing, I would have to say that there is no spiritual side to anything. It is all physical, which at times gives the illusion of being spiritual.

Possible but conjectural, which itself involves use of consciousness.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Possible but conjectural, which itself involves use of consciousness.

Yes. It is after all just a belief. I've recently begun calling it ultra-physical.

 

[atanu]

This forum is called 'Science and Religion', and in my opinion, is meant to exchange views. A view that asserts that all of spirituality is evolutionary derived delusion, effectively puts a stop to the dialectical process. It is worth pointing out that as per Vedanta and Buddhism, the all sets of derived concepts are one or another form of delusions-- mental constructs only. But, the knowledge of Vedanta or Buddhism, or for any other spiritual tradition comes from intuitional non-intentional Mind.

The key understanding of the said spiritual traditions is 'Intentional versus non-intentional Mind'.

 

[Runewolf1973]

This forum is called 'Science and Religion', and in my opinion, is meant to exchange views. A view that asserts that all of spirituality is evolutionary derived delusion, effectively puts a stop to the dialectical process. It is worth pointing out that as per Vedanta and Buddhism, the all sets of derived concepts are one or another form of delusions-- mental constructs only. But, the knowledge of Vedanta or Buddhism, or for any other spiritual tradition comes from intuitional non-intentional Mind.

The key understanding of the said spiritual traditions is 'Intentional versus non-intentional Mind'.

It is interesting how when that understanding comes to a person, it just kinda flows in all by itself...non-intentional, nothing forced, it just happens.

 

[atanu]

?........
The key understanding of the said spiritual traditions is 'Intentional versus non-intentional Mind'.

The key difference between the two sets of 'Double Slit' experiments -- one without observation of the slit and another with observation of the slits-- actually boils downs to 'the INTENTION'.

Consciousness, or whatever one may prefer to call the awareness with which these experiments are carried out, is constant. What has changed is the 'Intention' of the system --- and lo see how the behaviour changes.

And this is what, as I understand, has been the teaching from the spiritual masters. In simple words, it is called karma. The universe is karma. One's environment is karma.

And the teaching further goes on that 'karma' free existence is the true and pain free existence.


Some will indeed recognise that scientific enquiry cannot happen in absence of a given consciousness. The scientific enquiry process has always helped human understanding to move towards the spiritual knowledge that the true knowledge is beyond the mind-sense. From the discovery that matter was essentially empty to the observation of 'Decoherence', the knowledge has incessantly moved towards what spiritual masters have taught through their mindless meditative insights.

Again, the key difference between a meditator and a scientist is that the former wishes for ceasing of all suffering and the latter wants to know more and more insight into the the nature of things. And the karma is as per the intention in each case.

Sorry folks. My mind is over working and rambling too much. Time for it to go to sleep.

 

[atanu]

It is interesting how when that understanding comes to a person, it just kinda flows in all by itself...non-intentional, nothing forced, it just happens.

Thank you wolf. And I applaud you.:yes:

 

[Runewolf1973]

To live a karma free existence is to truly live in the Here and Now. When we dwell on our past we allow ourselves to be affected by that karma.

 

[atanu]

To live a karma free existence is to truly live in the Here and Now. When we dwell on our past we allow ourselves to be affected by that karma.

Why don' you distribute a frubal or two and become truly karma free? Then, you see, our understanding will be so perfectly aligned.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Why don' you distribute a frubal or two and become truly karma free? Then, you see, our understanding will be so perfectly aligned.

Indeed.

 

[shawn001]

QM theory is a very successful science, although a lot to be learned still.

Dr Quantum - Double Slit Experiment

[youtube]DfPeprQ7oGc[/youtube]
Dr Quantum - Double Slit Experiment - YouTube


If you really want to see weird.

"Join Brian Greene on a wild ride into the weird realm of quantum physics, which governs the universe on the tiniest of scales. Greene brings quantum mechanics to life in a nightclub like no other, where objects pop in and out of existence, and things over here can affect others over there, instantaneously and without anything crossing the space between them. A century ago, during the initial shots in the quantum revolution, the best minds of a generation—including Albert Einstein and Niels Bohr—squared off in a battle for the soul of physics. How could the rules of the quantum world, which work so well to describe the behavior of individual atoms and their components, conflict so dramatically with the everyday rules that govern people, planets, and galaxies?

Quantum mechanics may be counterintuitive, but it's one of the most successful theories in the history of science, making predictions that have been confirmed to better than one part in a billion, while also launching the technological advances at the heart of modern life, like computers and cell phones. But even today, even with such profound successes, the debate still rages over what quantum mechanics implies for the true nature of reality."

[youtube]EGhQmNZhlqw[/youtube]
3. Quantum Leap - YouTube


This is something he just did brand new which is very good.

Live Discussion with Brian Greene, April 1, 2014

Brian Greene answers your questions in this Live Discussion for World Science U.


[youtube]7IkQgF2QVaM[/youtube]
Live Discussion with Brian Greene, April 1, 2014 - YouTube

 

[Avi1001]

Very nice explanation, Viole, thank you!

Could you please share your thoughts on how this phenomenon could be applied to quantum computing, or other technological applications ?

Well, that is a bit different. Usually you have this stroboscopic illusion when you watch a movie of a car moving. It is due to the discretization of the image in different photograms. You see one photogram and the next is when the wheel has performed almost, but not quite, a full round. You would have the impression that the movement is reversed.

The Everett interprtation of quantum mechanics is quite popular amongs scientists. The idea is that when we make an observation, we do not affect the physics whatsoever. That would introduce absurdities like consciousness affecting reality and, even worse, an asymmetry in the laws of nature.

The idea is: when we don't observe, the photon is in a superposition of states (slit1 and slit2). When we observe, it is us that go in a superposition of states (slit1 observed, slit2 observed).

So, if I observe the photon going through slit1, there will be another viole who observed it going through slit2. The wavelike character of the photon has been inherited by viole, who is also a wave now.

Viole and the observed photon become entangled, so to speak, and they all run in parallel in a superposition of states, one for each possible entanglement. That happens also in an interaction particle/particle (and particles do not have consciousness, I assume): when they interact they may become entangled. The same happens in an interaction particle/observer.

Nothing weird, lol.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Maybe photons are just really shy and act weird when they know someone is watching....

Yes, that could explain it...

 

[George-ananda]

That would introduce absurdities like consciousness affecting reality

Why is that absurd? [Edit: On second thought I know why you call it absurd, but I hope that the term 'absurd' doesn't disqualify the possibility. I even looked the word up.

Full Definition of ABSURD 1; ridiculously unreasonable, unsound, or incongruous <an absurd argument>

I don't like that use of the word here but I'll get over my rant and move on]



There are different schools of thought out there.

Theistic: Consciousness is primary and matter is a product of consciousness

Atheistic: Matter is primary and consciousness is aI can s product of matter