Double Slit Experiment

[atanu]

In regards to the speed of light thing, I was just trying demonstrate that the interaction takes place about as fast as we see it. It is still a physical interaction, so I agree, doesn't really matter.

I agree with the second point you make. In fact, I believe that even our own consciousness is an illusion created by chemical interactions in our brains. There is no "consciousness", only interactions. Some interactions are more complex than others giving us that illusion or feeling of being more aware. We are just matter changing form like anything else.

Well. How do you know that consciousness is an illusion?

 

[Runewolf1973]

Well. How do you know that consciousness is an illusion?

I don't know it, I believe it.

Consider it a sort of chemically induced feeling or "gut instinct".

Our consciousness and even life itself for that matter is a chemically (physically) induced illusion of sorts. However, since as the hindus would say "All is Brahman, and Brahman alone is Real."...so too are those illusions real and existing in that way.

By illusion I mean something that is not exacly what it seems. That is not to say it does not exist in some way though. It exists phyically, not spiritually.


---

 

[ruffen]

That is not point, however.

Yes it is. Anyone who claims that the double slit experiment is affected by whether a conscious mind watches it or not, has not understood the experiment or what happens.

So, if a conscious mind would alter the outcome of the double slit experiment (from wave-like interference patterns to "bullet"-like shadows), what about a monkey watching? A dog? A spider? An amoeba? How conscious must someone be to affect the experiment? Could it be used to determine if a patient is brain-dead?

The point is that there is no way to see a photon or electron without disturbing it (typically having the electron interacting with photons). This disturbance is what collapses the wave function of the particle.

Any hypothesis that it is the consciousness watching the result that affects the outcome of the experiment, is Quantum Physics Woo.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Yes it is. Anyone who claims that the double slit experiment is affected by whether a conscious mind watches it or not, has not understood the experiment or what happens.

So, if a conscious mind would alter the outcome of the double slit experiment (from wave-like interference patterns to "bullet"-like shadows), what about a monkey watching? A dog? A spider? An amoeba? How conscious must someone be to affect the experiment? Could it be used to determine if a patient is brain-dead?

The point is that there is no way to see a photon or electron without disturbing it (typically having the electron interacting with photons). This disturbance is what collapses the wave function of the particle.

Any hypothesis that it is the consciousness watching the result that affects the outcome of the experiment, is Quantum Physics Woo.

So it's basically just a sort of interference that causes this phenomenon. That makes sense. I believe that our consciousness is a physical interaction, so therefore the forces involved with that physical interaction might be sufficient to cause an interference or disturbance of such nature.

 

[George-ananda]

The point is that there is no way to see a photon or electron without disturbing it.

The point is how can a passive observer (only receiving information) disturb the photon or electron?

 

[viole]

The point is how can a passive observer (only receiving information) disturb the photon or electron?

She can't.

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

Why is that absurd? [Edit: On second thought I know why you call it absurd, but I hope that the term 'absurd' doesn't disqualify the possibility. I even looked the word up.

Full Definition of ABSURD 1; ridiculously unreasonable, unsound, or incongruous <an absurd argument>

I don't like that use of the word here but I'll get over my rant and move on]



There are different schools of thought out there.

Theistic: Consciousness is primary and matter is a product of consciousness

Atheistic: Matter is primary and consciousness is aI can s product of matter

I don't think it is a matter of atheism. I know atheists who are dualists.

I subscribe to the organization invariance principle. So, both matter and its organization are important for consciousness.

So, if I replace parts of my brain with different materials with the same organization and physical properties, I will not notice a thing.

Alas, if I assume chemical substances (e.g. Vodka) or get hit by a hammer, or get Alzheimer, then my consciousness will be compromised.

These facts provide evidence that matter and organization is a prerequisite for conscious systems. The contrary is not required: matter can do pretty well without people thinking about it.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Hawkins]

In short: When scientists (instruments of course) watch a particle pass through two slits, the particle goes through one slit or the other. If a person doesn't watch it, it acts like a wave and can go through both slits simultaneously.

How is this explained by physicists?

(I did not see this subject through search, although I might have missed it.)

To me, quantum physics is all about the behavior of matters under a time-space when failed to comprehend. We can only comprehend time-space surrounding us, where both time and space are a stable physics quantity. This is no longer the case in both relativity and quantum physics.

 

[atanu]

Yes it is. Anyone who claims that the double slit experiment is affected by whether a conscious mind watches it or not, has not understood the experiment or what happens....o.

I have not said that.

 

[atanu]

I don't know it, I believe it.

Consider it a sort of chemically induced feeling or "gut instinct".

Our consciousness and even life itself for that matter is a chemically (physically) induced illusion of sorts. However, since as the hindus would say "All is Brahman, and Brahman alone is Real."...so too are those illusions real and existing in that way.

By illusion I mean something that is not exacly what it seems. That is not to say it does not exist in some way though. It exists phyically, not spiritually.

---

In respect of the highlighted part, Brahman is All and Brahman is division less pure consciousness.

When the consciousness is division-less, no awareness is generated and the mind surmises, as if, there is total unconsciousness. But memory of such timeless division-less consciousness will be known later as "It was bliss", as it happens upon waking. We all want to sleep a little bit more. Why? Is it because of sleep being unconscious ?

So, the fundamental point to remember is that the Consciousness and the 'mental differentiated awareness' are not the same .. the latter proceeds from the former.

 

[shawn001]

On consciousness.

The Electric Brain
Posted 10.23.01NOVA
How does a three-pound mass of wet gray tissue (the brain) succeed in representing the external world so beautifully? In this interview with noted neuroscientist Rodolfo Llinás of the New York University School of Medicine, find out how the rhythm of electrical oscillations in the brain gives rise to consciousness, and how failures in this rhythm can lead to a variety of brain disorders.

NOVA | The Electric Brain

 

[Runewolf1973]

In respect of the highlighted part, Brahman is All and Brahman is division less pure consciousness.

When the consciousness is division-less, no awareness is generated and the mind surmises, as if, there is total unconsciousness. But memory of such timeless division-less consciousness will be known later as "It was bliss", as it happens upon waking. We all want to sleep a little bit more. Why? Is it because of sleep being unconscious ?

So, the fundamental point to remember is that the Consciousness and the 'mental differentiated awareness' are not the same .. the latter proceeds from the former.

I understand, however I don't call it consciousness, nor do I consider it to be in any way "conscious". I call it The Animating
Factor. I never liked the term Universal Consciousness either, because I believe consciousness is an emergent property, not universal. Those underlying, fundamental forces of nature are universal however.

This may be somewhat different from your way of understanding, but this is my way of understanding.


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[George-ananda]

So, if I replace parts of my brain with different materials with the same organization and physical properties, I will not notice a thing.

Alas, if I assume chemical substances (e.g. Vodka) or get hit by a hammer, or get Alzheimer, then my consciousness will be compromised.

This is all consistent with the Vedic view I subscribe to. Physical consciousness goes through the physical brain so all these things would effect physical consciousness. You can effect a reflection of the moon in water but are you effecting the moon itself? Spirit reflects through a physical body creating an ego. The ego can be effected by events but not the spirit.

These facts provide evidence that matter and organization is a prerequisite for conscious systems. The contrary is not required: matter can do pretty well without people thinking about it.

No, it shows only that organized matter is required for physical plane consciousness on which we both agree.

You are assuming physical consciousness is the only consciousness. I believe it is consciousness in its most limited form expressed through mechanisms of the gross physical plane. Physical death actually produces an expansion of consciousness as it is then focused in the less dense astral plane.

Ciao

 

[Runewolf1973]

This is all consistent with the Vedic view I subscribe to. Physical consciousness goes through the physical brain so all these things would effect physical consciousness. You can effect a reflection of the moon in water but are you effecting the moon itself? Spirit reflects through a physical body creating an ego. The ego can be effected by events but not the spirit.



No, it shows only that organized matter is required for physical plane consciousness on which we both agree.

Ciao

I am of the opinion that it is all physical and there is no other "spiritual" plane of consciousness. This is the only way that brahman can be real...if it is actually physically existing as an underlying force of nature. But that's just me...

 

[fantome profane]

The point is how can a passive observer (only receiving information) disturb the photon or electron?

The point I think you are missing is that there is no such thing as a "passive observer" when it comes to sub atomic particles. There is no way to "passively observe" an electron.

(I am not sure there is such a thing as a "passive observer" in any situation, but I will leave that for a different time)

 

[George-ananda]

I am of the opinion that it is all physical and there is no other "spiritual" plane of consciousness. This is the only way that brahman can be real...if it is actually physically existing as an underlying force of nature. But that's just me...

Brahman is pure consciousness and all the material planes from the subtlest to the grossest are a thought-form of Brahman. This is all the divine play/drama of the Lord. He separates Himself from Himself and returns Himself to Himself. Brahman alone is Real.

 

[George-ananda]

The point I think you are missing is that there is no such thing as a "passive observer" when it comes to sub atomic particles. There is no way to "passively observe" an electron.

(I am not sure there is such a thing as a "passive observer" in any situation, but I will leave that for a different time)

A marble in motion isn't effected by observation. Why an electron?

 

[brokensymmetry]

A marble in motion isn't effected by observation. Why an electron?

A marble is affected. How do you observe it? If you see it, there are photons being reflected from its surface. That subtly affects it in a number of ways, its momentum, its temperature (that I can even talk about its temperature meaningfully is telling) and so on. The difference between an electron and a marble is that a marble is a composite of many many other particles such that the interference of every smaller part makes its quantum effects not noticeable.

 

[fantome profane]

A marble in motion isn't effected by observation. Why an electron?

Because of the size. If you hit a marble with a photon, or even thousands of photons, you will not see any noticeable reaction. If you hit an electron with a photon you will drastically effect its position, speed, energy level.

You cannot observe an electron without physically interacting with it. If you physically interact with a marble you affect it. If you physically interact with an electron you affect it.

It seems like you keep asking what happens when you observe an electron without physically interacting with it (passive observation). And what I am telling you is that you cannot observe an electron without physically interacting with it.

 

[fantome profane]

A marble is affected. How do you observe it? If you see it, there are photons being reflected from its surface. That subtly affects it in a number of ways, its momentum, its temperature (that I can even talk about its temperature meaningfully is telling) and so on. The difference between an electron and a marble is that a marble is a composite of many many other particles such that the interference of every smaller part makes its quantum effects not noticeable.

He said it better than I, but I am saying the same thing.