fantôme profane;3718349 said:
Observation does not mean hitting the marble or electrons with photons. It means the radiation from the marble is hitting my eyes or a detection device.
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Double Slit Experiment
- Thread starter atanu
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Observation does not mean hitting the marble or electrons with photons. It means the radiation from the marble is hitting my eyes or a detection device.
brokensymmetry
ground state
fantôme profane;3718355 said:
Though we were typing at the same time, it seems, and saying similar things what you said is actually a bit different from my post. I think you have a solid point.
brokensymmetry
ground state
You have some photon from the sun, a lamp, whatever, interact with the marble. The marble in turn emits a photon which interacts with your eye.The marble is absolutely affected by the interaction with the photons in question.
By the way, if it helps, you could infer the existence of an accelerating electron through its radiation. There isn't anything qualitatively different between a marble a n electron. The marble just has a lot more particles associated with it as an object. The same physical rules apply.
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If no one is observing it aren't the same photons being reflected. Why is there an observer effect?
Do you understand why quantum mechanics is counter-intuitive?
brokensymmetry
ground state
If no one is watching an electron interacting with photons, it does the same thing as if there are conscious observers. Exactly the same as with the marble. QM is counterintuitive in many ways, but this isn't really the place that is the case.
Imagine you are in a completely dark room, no light whatsoever. And somewhere in this dark room is a marble. And you need to determine where it is. Think about that for a minute.
You have a couple options. You could feel around for it, but that would be physically interacting with it.
You could pull out a flashlight and turn it on. But with this you would still be physically interacting with then marble as you hit it with photons emitted by your flashlight.
Can you think of a way in this scenario to observe the marble without physically interacting with it?
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Runewolf1973
Materialism/Animism
fantôme profane;3718376 said:
Good analogy. I was trying to say the same thing, but in a slightly different way...from an animist perspective.
fantôme profane;3718376 said:
In the double-slit experiment the only thing they're doing is adding a detector. Not adding lights, physical interaction or anything. That's why this experiment is considered so baffling.
brokensymmetry
ground state
How do you think these detectors work? You have to bounce something off of the electron to 'see' it, as fantome pointed out. That isn't why the experiment is so baffling. The reason it is baffling/counterintuitive/odd is because the electrons seem to interfere with themselves (really, their probability amplitudes or wave functions) even if you send in *one at a time*. The interference pattern is destroyed if you close one of the slits.
I am sorry, but you are just wrong. There is no such thing as a particle detector that does not physically interact with the particle.
I like Dr. Quantum, but he doesn't really tell the whole story.
Runewolf1973
Materialism/Animism
Okay, well I guess Brahman isn't for me then. The notion of "pure consciousness" just does not sound realistic to me. I believe in no such thing. I believe in only that which is physically existing, not non-physical.
No. Do your eyes bounce something off objects to see. No, they just take input.
brokensymmetry
ground state
The only reason you get to see the marble is because it is interacting with photons from the lamp, ultimately from the sun, etc. There is no conceptual difference between that and purposefully setting up a marble detector, which in this case could be as simple as a flashlight (as fantome pointed out). If you want to talk about a very hot marble that emits blackbody radiation in the visible spectrum, great. I will talk about accelerating marbles that emit radiation. There is no qualitative physical difference between these objects. After all, marbles are nothing but a collection of fundamental particles such as electrons.
I think the idea that you can't observe anything without interacting with it is a profound idea. This idea does not just refer to sub atomic particles, but everything in the universe. Including people. This in itself is an amazing realization.
brokensymmetry
ground state
fantôme profane;3718424 said:
In my mind, it is just that we are a part of the physical system we are trying to observe. Yeah, I can see how that has a deep side. Every time we observe a system we become entangled with it.
fantôme profane;3718394 said:I am sorry, but you are just wrong. There is no such thing as a particle detector that does not physically interact with the particle.
I like Dr. Quantum, but he doesn't really tell the whole story.
Watch Dr. Quantum again. I will too. The detection device, like our eyes, is an input only device. It is not bouncing anything off the electron. If it was bouncing something off the electron this would not be a famous experiment.
Runewolf1973
Materialism/Animism
fantôme profane;3718424 said:
Indeed it is.
brokensymmetry
ground state
Think about how it works physically. How is a detection device going to work, specifically? It can *only* function if it interacts physically with the electron, like everything else. There is no way of 'seeing' that something is there without messing with it.
lol, I know it looks like a eye in the cartoon. What I am telling you is that that part is not scientifically accurate.
There are some really amazing and strange thing that come out of the double slit experiment. The idea that the wave function collapses by physical interaction is itself amazing and strange. The idea that there is a wave function at all is amazing and strange. There is so much incredible going on here, and I think you are missing it because you are focusing on one thing, one thing that is not really happening.
I am going to try this again.
Remember my scenario of the dark room and the marble. Ok, now forget that.
You are outside on a bright sunny day and you see a marble sitting on the sidewalk.
Ok, so you didn't do anything to cause the photons to hit the marble, that was just the sun, all you did was detect them. This is what you are trying to get at, correct?
Now if you are thinking that there is something analogous to the sun in the double slit experiment, something that is just there that the researchers can detect, you are wrong about this experiment. But that does not matter. If there was something there, some stray photons that bounced off the particle and could be detected, that would still be a physical interaction, and that physical interaction would disrupt the wave function. The physical interaction is what effect the particle, not the detection of that interaction. But there can be no detection without the interaction.
The only way we get the wave pattern at the end of the experiment is if there is no physical interaction until that point.