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Draw Muhammad day

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I disagree with the assertion that since religion is a choice, it has to be treated differently than race.

For many people, religion is not a choice, and denouncing affiliation with it could result in severe consequences, so I think it would be more akin to race in such cases.

Unless there is complete freedom of switching between religions, I don't think that it can be called a 'choice'.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I disagree with the assertion that since religion is a choice, it has to be treated differently than race.
For many people, religion is not a choice, and denouncing affiliation with it could result in severe consequences, so I think it would be more akin to race in such cases.
Unless there is complete freedom of switching between religions, I don't think that it can be called a 'choice'.
I concur. Religion & political orientation are not a choice for many. Changes can occur, but without choice in the matter.
It burns my bacon when people justify abusing someone else because of disdain for a "chosen" status.
(Note to Penny, since DS responded to your post.....my complaint ain't directed at you.)
 
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beenie

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I think anyone who is opposed by Draw Mohammed Day may have some serious issues about freedom.

I think anyone who thinks "anyone who is opposed by Draw Mohammad Day has serious issues about freedom" is the one who has serious issues about freedom.
 

Badran

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Again I think your generalizing those people. Not everyone is targeting all muslims. Some are, but some aren't, just as some muslims want those cartoonists dead, and some muslims don't.

Okay, i'm not trying to be rude, but please put more effort into reading what you're responding to. What i said was addressing your reasoning, the one you shared as justification for targeting an entire group despite a minority only being the ones who did anything. It was in response to this:

I think this is a matter of opinion. It is muslims who are the ones rioting and murdering others over this. Granted, its a minority of muslims, but its muslims who are doing it. So, targeting muslims is fine in my view, because muslims are the ones that have the problem with it.

So, i was addressing your words, and your argument, about targeting Muslims as a whole. It was not however saying that all people involved in Draw Muhammad day had that as their purpose. I've already clarified that this is actually against the argument i'm making, since if that were their goal then there wouldn't have been any 'mis-aim'.

Will they? I don't know. Why would most muslims care that much? You don't see most Christians going up in arms over Jesus being constantly made fun of in cartoon shows, sitcoms, movies, etc. And Jesus is made fun of way more than muhammad is.

We already know that Muslims are different in how they approach this. They don't depict Muhammad themselves. Regardless of what you or i think about that, that is whats actually the case. They are different from most other religious groups in this regard.

Plus, Jesus is a prophet in Islam too, why don't muslims care about Jesus being made fun of? Isn't that a bit hypocritical?

I think 'bias' might be a more appropriate word, in which case, i'd agree.

I think the message is sent to everyone, not just those who reacted violently, but also to others who may react violently in the future or who just have a big problem with it. Everyone with access to the internet or a tv may hear about it, and the message is that those people have the right to draw religious figures if they want to.

You've already made a similar even wider argument of the message being sent to everyone in general. And i've already addressed that and clarified why it doesn't actually address my point.

I don't think so. Like I said, people generalize those kinds of things all the time. We can say, for instance, that Americans fought in Vietnam, and I think thats perfectly fine to say.

I've already clarified that its fine to say that.

What your saying is akin to saying that since not all Americans wanted to fight in the war, or that only a small percentage of Americans fought in the war, that its not appropriate to say that Americans fought in Vietnam because its not specific enough.

Nope, thats not what i said or am saying, and i've already clarified what i'm saying.

I simply think your wrong to think this.

And i think you're simply doing the best you can to misrepresent what i say and blur the issue.

But, if you want to get into specifics obviously the details can all be figured out,

There aren't a lot of details to this. I asked you specific questions, questions needing of specific answers, to which you replied with a generalized response. I clarified that i am specifically looking for addressing this beyond the general approach, as that is where the entire point lays (which was clear from the start, as i've already shared and clarified that multiple times). Yet you continue to avoid stating the obvious as best as possible.

I think your just being too sensitive about saying muslims in this case.

Nope, just trying to have an honest, and accurate discussion (one that also has a purpose, which at this point, unfortunately doesn't seem to be the case).
 

Anonymouse

Member
I think anyone who thinks "anyone who is opposed by Draw Mohammad Day has serious issues about freedom" is the one who has serious issues about freedom.
Well let me suggest to you these questions two.

  • Are you an artist?
  • Can you draw the prophet Mohammad?
 

Badran

Veteran Member
Premium Member
DMD is in response to a show getting censored, and it's a show that spits in everyone's face (usually with a satirical point embedded somewhere). So why is the question of whether this would bother Muslims involved, considering that the whole context is that it revolves around a show that insults everyone? The show makes points or satires things, and those points sometimes offend people. They got censored in this one particular instance. In response, a movement made a point, and that point sometimes offends people.

So in other words, who cares who gets offended? The show offends everyone, or at least everyone that allows their self to get offended by such things. And when they got censored out of what was apparently fear or risk-avoidance, a movement came to say that fear shouldn't dictate censorship. And suddenly we're worried about offending people, considering the whole context to begin with is an offensive show?

This in my view is the first actual decent point in defense of the idea, or the principle of participating in such a day.

Thing is though, the reason something was censored in the show, which does this generally as a form of art (contain offensive things) was not Muslim's fault. It was the decision of the people responsible for the show, as a result of some threats by a few individuals. They've already shown Muhammad before. So its not a question of Muslims getting special treatment, but rather as you pointed out, the idea of giving in to such threats that is the real problem, and the thing that is worth criticizing.

Thats not to say that Muslims don't have special 'needs' in this regard, and that as a result Muhammad might be generally depicted much less, if at all. But to say that the real problem is the idea of threats of violence actually working in forcing or pressuring the show to reconsider.

As such, while offending people generally, or doing something that others don't like isn't necessarily bad, responding with something that does step over that special 'need' of Muslims, while knowing that it would also include such an amount of hateful messages (although that is not the goal) by bigots who inescapably take advantage of the day to have some fun, might not be a good idea. Unlike the show which does this generally as a form of general expression, not an emotion filled response to some individuals or some incidents.

Put differently, as i've said in other posts, considering the amount of unnecessary damage done, other methods would've have been the wiser choice. Knowingly choosing to do this despite knowing that you'll hurt a lot of Muslims needlessly, while also knowing that they had nothing to do with the incident you want to object to, is ill-advised in my view.
 
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Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Define success. Are your referring to fame, fortune and notoriety?

I thought an artist's success was measured by exposure, value of his/her works, and talent, among other things. Do you think that drawing or not drawing Muhammad could affect any of these factors for an artist?
 

Anonymouse

Member
:facepalm:

Please tell me you are now joking. Do you have a serious question?
Yes.
Are there any artists on this forum who can explain the reason why they draw and is this motive for the specific purpose of becoming succesful (fame, fortune, notoriety).
 

Anonymouse

Member
I thought an artist's success was measured by exposure, value of his/her works, and talent, among other things.
I think the artistic motive to draw anything is the wonder and curiosity to be able to transform any image or imagining to paper. If they (and they alone) are satisfied with the end result, I would presume that the artist would feel they were successful.

Do you think that drawing or not drawing Muhammad could affect any of these factors for an artist?



Using the above example to define success for an artist who draws a portrait (or likeness) of the prophet Mohammed is harder to discern for two reasons.
  • There is no photographic reference of the prophet Mohammed for artists to compare their work to.
  • There is no way of knowing whether the prophet Mohammed is offended or flattered by these renderings.
It has recently become apparent that there is one way for an artist to discern whether he/she was successful in drawing the prophet Mohammad.

If the portrait has ****** off a Muslim, then the artist has rendered him correctly.
 
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beenie

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes.
Are there any artists on this forum who can explain the reason why they draw and is this motive for the specific purpose of becoming succesful (fame, fortune, notoriety).

Well, I think they did it for one of two purposes:

1) to **** off Muslims
2) to participate in Draw Muhammad Day

I don't think their success would depend on this though...they may be known for a while, but other than that...:shrug:
 

Anonymouse

Member
Well, I think they did it for one of two purposes:

1) to **** off Muslims
2) to participate in Draw Muhammad Day

I don't think their success would depend on this though...they may be known for a while, but other than that...:shrug:

1) I can't speak for every artist but I don't think it was Muslims (the people) as much as it was what they believe. If everything about Allah/Islam/Mohammad were true, I don't think any artists would be able to render a portrait of Mohammad.

2) I think artists by nature enjoy challenging their talents. What reason would there be for an artist to draw if not for the opportunity to draw something that they never drew before? And for someone to proclaim that the subject matter is forbidden...well that's a double-dog-dare right there.
 
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Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Wait, this nonsense is still going on?

*sigh* My two cents:

First of all, while I disagree with drawing Mohammed in protest, doing so is not a crime, nor should it be considered one. However, killing the artists for doing so IS illegal in all countries, and I suspect it is in Islam as well. It's also immoral by most standards, including my own. So let it not be said that I support those who call for the deaths of those artists, or actually carry the assassinations out.

I still call the whole thing childish behavior, like that when you tell the kid next to you to stop tapping his pencil and then he looks at you with a mocking expression and does it louder than before just to spite you, as if to say "Or what'cha gonna do?"

Protesting is fine in itself, but it can be done in a more mature manner. I'd almost compare drawing Mohammed out of protest akin to the Westoro Baptist Church's funeral protests. (Key: almost; it misses the mark in that drawing Mohammed actually is attempting to defend something worth defending: free speech.)
 
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