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Draw Muhammad day

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
*** Staff Advisory ***​

Several posts in the thread have been deleted for rule violations. Please keep your discussions civil. If the conversation can't proceed with further rule violations happening, the thread will be closed.

In particular, please keep in mind our rules against personal attacks and trolling. Keep it above the belt, everyone.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
the verse isn't stressful, it is addressing men like me and you as not to choose gays
instead of women as their wives.

Can you clarify where is the insult

Transgressing beyond bounds,notice i haven't included the hadith where choicier words are made.
 

A Troubled Man

Active Member
Troubled Man, I'm still waiting for an explanation as to how anything in that article takes your rights away. Simply quoting the article doesn't help. If you want your argument to be convincing, you need to provide an explanation. NEVER assume your target audience can see the same thing you can.

"Considering that religion or belief, for anyone who professes either, is one of the fundamental elements in his conception of life and that freedom of religion or belief should be fully respected and guaranteed

Everyone shall have the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion. This right shall include freedom to have a religion or whatever belief of his choice, and freedom, either individually or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in worship, observance, practice and teaching."


Its' quite simple. I am to "fully respect and guarantee" believers rights to the freedom of religion based on the fact religion is now considered a "fundamental element of life". That immediately removes any rights for others to participate in Draw Muhammad Day, for example. It also removes the rights of anyone to question or criticize any religious practice or speech believers would do or say. They are free to tell me I will burn for an eternity in their hells and I must respect that.

Secondly, they can have those freedoms, say and do whatever they want "in public or private, to manifest their practices" anywhere they wish. The are free to come to my home and evangelize their faiths, free to publicly speak to any concept they wish, and I must respect it and guarantee their rights to do so. I have no right to not hear them and not see them practice their beliefs, however bigoted, however hateful and however offensive they may be.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"Considering that religion or belief, for anyone who professes either, is one of the fundamental elements in his conception of life and that freedom of religion or belief should be fully respected and guaranteed

Everyone shall have the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion. This right shall include freedom to have a religion or whatever belief of his choice, and freedom, either individually or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in worship, observance, practice and teaching."


Its' quite simple. I am to "fully respect and guarantee" believers rights to the freedom of religion based on the fact religion is now considered a "fundamental element of life". That immediately removes any rights for others to participate in Draw Muhammad Day, for example. It also removes the rights of anyone to question or criticize any religious practice or speech believers would do or say. They are free to tell me I will burn for an eternity in their hells and I must respect that.

Secondly, they can have those freedoms, say and do whatever they want "in public or private, to manifest their practices" anywhere they wish. The are free to come to my home and evangelize their faiths, free to publicly speak to any concept they wish, and I must respect it and guarantee their rights to do so. I have no right to not hear them and not see them practice their beliefs, however bigoted, however hateful and however offensive they may be.
I don't see how those conclusions follow from the quoted material.
 

A Troubled Man

Active Member
What will be left for us to discriminate against people based upon if this goes on any further?

Race, gender and now people's beliefs as well can't be basis for discrimination. The world is falling apart.

Strawman argument and a dishonest claim. It seems perfectly acceptable to discriminate others based on your faith, but not discriminate the faith itself.

Race and gender are specific to people personally while faith is not. They are completely different concepts however you felt compelled to dishonestly place them together in the same category and then fallaciously provided the Slippery Slope.

You're absolutely right, it won't help at all. As of lately all you've been saying is either curious unclear statements, irrelevant points to the discussion or misrepresentations of the posts you're replying to. So yeah, doing that again won't help in the slightest.

Yes, I do understand why you believe my points are irrelevant, ,ramblings or misrepresenting and why you aren't able to grasp them.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
"Considering that religion or belief, for anyone who professes either, is one of the fundamental elements in his conception of life and that freedom of religion or belief should be fully respected and guaranteed

Everyone shall have the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion. This right shall include freedom to have a religion or whatever belief of his choice, and freedom, either individually or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in worship, observance, practice and teaching."


Its' quite simple. I am to "fully respect and guarantee" believers rights to the freedom of religion based on the fact religion is now considered a "fundamental element of life". That immediately removes any rights for others to participate in Draw Muhammad Day, for example. It also removes the rights of anyone to question or criticize any religious practice or speech believers would do or say. They are free to tell me I will burn for an eternity in their hells and I must respect that.

How? I don't see your connection. It just seems to say that people are free to believe what they want without legal worries. It doesn't say anything about receiving social criticism.

Besides, the final article in that declaration reads:

Article 8
Nothing in the present Declaration shall be construed as restricting or derogating from any right defined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenants on Human Rights.
Therefore, your freedom of speech and expression is not compromised.

Secondly, they can have those freedoms, say and do whatever they want "in public or private, to manifest their practices" anywhere they wish. The are free to come to my home and evangelize their faiths, free to publicly speak to any concept they wish, and I must respect it and guarantee their rights to do so. I have no right to not hear them and not see them practice their beliefs, however bigoted, however hateful and however offensive they may be.

Again, nothing seems to indicate freedom from social criticism; just legal action. You are free to tell door-to-door evangelists to leave before they start talking. Nothing in the article seems to indicate otherwise.

Not to mention, the article reads: "one of the fundamental elements in his conception of life". Reading it this way, it would seem that any such conception ought to be respected, including non-religious ones.
 

A Troubled Man

Active Member
How? I don't see your connection. It just seems to say that people are free to believe what they want without legal worries.

Where does it say that?

It doesn't say anything about receiving social criticism.

"freedom of religion or belief should be fully respected and guaranteed"

Besides, the final article in that declaration reads:

Article 8
Nothing in the present Declaration shall be construed as restricting or derogating from any right defined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenants on Human Rights.
Therefore, your freedom of speech and expression is not compromised.

Sorry, but those rights don't cover freedom of speech. As well, the Muslim community and Islam have been observed to be in violation with some of those rights.

You are free to tell door-to-door evangelists to leave before they start talking.

However, my right to not have them come to my door and tell my I'm going to burn in hell for eternity in the first place has been violated.

Not to mention, the article reads: "one of the fundamental elements in his conception of life". Reading it this way, it would seem that any such conception ought to be respected, including non-religious ones.

However, if his conception of life infringes or violates my conception of life, I have lost that right to be observed and respected.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Where does it say that?

Right here:

"freedom of religion or belief should be fully respected and guaranteed"

Sorry, but those rights don't cover freedom of speech.

Article 19.


  • Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

As well, the Muslim community and Islam have been observed to be in violation with some of those rights.

Oh, please. They're not alone in frequent violations:
Article 9.


  • No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.
Now where has this been violated recently?



However, my right to not have them come to my door and tell my I'm going to burn in hell for eternity in the first place has been violated.

Reading through the Declaration, I don't see any right to be left alone at all times.

Therefore, they're free to come to your door same as any girl scout with cookies.

Therefore, easy solution: never answer the door unless you're expecting company.

However, if his conception of life infringes or violates my conception of life, I have lost that right to be observed and respected.

I'm not sure where you got that.
 

nameless

The Creator
All we can do is hope and speak out as much as possible.
till a limited time, later should try something other since solution is a must for this issue.

Yes, but it really doesn't matter why it happens, jus that it does happen.
when same thing happen over and over again, the only thing which matters is why it happens.
You're correct that we're discussing religious extremism and intolerance in this thread, but it doesn't negate the fact that the very same atrocities are present in the societies Jay mentioned.
true, but i wonder what happened to jay to mention it in this thread.
It's pathetic no matter the reasoning behind it.
true, even pathetic is that the lack of seriousness on the subject to ponder over the reason behind it.
 
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Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What exactly don't you understand?
How you could possibly interpret it in the way you have.


Your derived conclusions aren't valid at all from the text you quoted, so unless there is other material out there that supports your conclusions, they're incorrect. Upholding someone's religious freedom has nothing to do with your right to express your opinion of it.

"...and that freedom of religion or belief should be fully respected and guaranteed"

The freedom of religion is respected. It doesn't mean the concepts of a religion itself have to be respected, like, "you shall respect this". I think you completely misunderstood that part.

People can express their beliefs, and others can express their opinion of those beliefs.
 

A Troubled Man

Active Member
Your derived conclusions aren't valid at all from the text you quoted

If you say so.

Upholding someone's religious freedom has nothing to do with your right to express your opinion of it.

It does if I have to guarantee respect for their beliefs and their freedom to practice those beliefs in public.

The freedom of religion is respected. It doesn't mean the concepts of a religion itself have to be respected, like, "you shall respect this". I think you completely misunderstood that part.

I could just as easily state that is your interpretation and misunderstanding.

People can express their beliefs, and others can express their opinion of those beliefs.

That is, unless those expressed beliefs and practices are not respectful of others, which in most cases they are not.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If you say so.
Here is what you quoted:

"Considering that religion or belief, for anyone who professes either, is one of the fundamental elements in his conception of life and that freedom of religion or belief should be fully respected and guaranteed

Everyone shall have the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion. This right shall include freedom to have a religion or whatever belief of his choice, and freedom, either individually or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in worship, observance, practice and teaching."


It does if I have to guarantee respect for their beliefs
It says nothing about guaranteeing respect for their beliefs. It says guaranteeing respect for the freedom of their beliefs.

and their freedom to practice those beliefs in public.
Why would you want to take away someone's right to practice their beliefs in public?

I could just as easily state that is your interpretation and misunderstanding.
Not really with any sort of real substance from the quoted material. We're not speaking separate languages here; it says what it says.

That is, unless those expressed beliefs and practices are not respectful of others, which in most cases they are not.
Again, it says nothing about respecting the beliefs.

It says to respect the freedom of people to have those beliefs.
 

Badran

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Strawman argument and a dishonest claim.

Its neither a straw man argument nor a dishonest claim. The difference between race, gender and belief has nothing to do with what i was addressing; your concern and the manner in which you expressed it. Your concern about a resolution against different treatment of people based upon an arbitrary reason (discrimination), and the exaggerative manner you expressed it in.

My words were a flat out exaggeration of your expressed concern (when i said "the world is falling apart" for example), to highlight how silly i think what you said was (in regards to it supposedly being mid-evil and bronze age as you referred to it). It included things you haven't said or implied to be concerned about, but i also wasn't actually saying that you are. I just used other examples to express the statement that i was acting to be saying, in the way i needed to (and since they are in the same category i was addressing, i saw no problem with using them, and i'll clarify more on what i mean here later), which i acted as if i was expressing to convey how ridiculous i see the manner you chose to express your concern in, and your concern itself. Not to say that this is exactly actually what you're saying, or that these mere additions actually refute your point somehow.

In other words, i responded in kind. By exaggerating the issue more than you already did, by claiming that the world is falling apart, because of the issue you're concerned with, and others like it. Not however saying that it follows that you also have a problem with those two other things specifically.

It seems perfectly acceptable to discriminate others based on your faith,

According to whom?

but not discriminate the faith itself.

Discriminate the faith?

Don't you mean the people who embrace it?

Race and gender are specific to people personally while faith is not.

I'll assume that by specific you mean that they can't help or choose it, or something along those lines, and if so, of course race and gender are as such.

Faith is obviously also not by any means equal or equivalent to those things, but it is in my view to some extent (a much lesser one) and in a sense as such, with some people.

However, this has nothing to do with why i used these examples.

They are completely different concepts however you felt compelled to dishonestly place them together in the same category and then fallaciously provided the Slippery Slope.

Garbage.

First, like i clarified they are under the same category; the category of things that discrimination based upon is not allowed.

That is not to say however, like i clarified above, that belief is the same thing as race or gender.

I was expressing through a bigot's words his perception of how things are awful in an exaggerative manner and included other similar examples to the one you were concerned about. It was not to however accuse you of being a racist or of being sexist.

Second, in regards to the slippery slope, if you mean in regards to the 'world is falling apart' comment, then quite possibly (and i say possibly because the comment might be valid to an extent from that person's perspective, since he's seeing things that discrimination is not being allowed based upon and to him thats the world falling apart).

But i think you forget that i'm supposed to be acting the role of a bigoted idiot in that part. So if it was slippery slope, then i did a good job (as i wasn't trying to be logical, in case you hadn't noticed or been unable to grasp that yet).

Yes, I do understand why you believe my points are irrelevant, ramblings or misrepresenting

I don't believe so, they are demonstrably so.

and why you aren't able to grasp them.

Absolute falsehood!

I insist that i grasp them too well.
 
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ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
I think part of the problem here is the perception of what calssifies as "discrimination" and what does not. As far as I am concerned, drawing Muhammed in and of itself is not an act of discrimination or prejudice. If Muslims choose to see it that way, they are free to do so, but they are still wrong in my eyes. My saying that I will participate in Draw Muhammed Day I am not saying "I dislike Islam". I am making the statement "I dislike Islam just as much as I dislike any other religion, and I will not afford it special privileges on the basis of what it's adherents choose to believe is personally offensive to them, and I will not allow said beliefs to influence my own opinions or how I choose to express them".
 
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