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Enemy's enemies are your friends - jews and Christians, unlikely friendship

sooda

Veteran Member
Augustus, you're just not a credible source on this stuff, Tax on Muslims is much higher than non muslims

Samuel Untermyer raised millions of dollars in the US for the "starving Jews of Europe"... Its no surprised that they turned to socialism ...

Early Zionist pioneers who established the state of Israel were socialists — they established farming collectives called kibbutzim which not only shared wages but sometimes even shared children —, very few kibbutzim still exist or share that economic model.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Sorry, but that's completely false. There is plenty of historical source evidence against it (also jizya was simply one of the taxes paid by non-Muslims).

However, the most common reports one hears about are the census (taʿdīl) followed by the levying of the jizya, often coupled with sealing, stamping, and branding of the non- Muslim inhabitants. This starts with ʿAbd al-Malik’s famous census followed by the levying of the jizya (signifying capitation tax and not tax generally) for the first time according to the Zuqnīn Chronicle39 and continues with the census of 708/9, when Maslama took control of Mesopotamia and had the lands measured and the vineyards and crops counted, as well as animals and persons. In addition, Maslama is reported to have “hung lead seals on everyone’s necks.”40 In the year 721/2, Dhaḥḥāk, emir of Mesopotamia, conducted a census unknown before.41 Hishām is reported to have oppressed the people with excessive exactions and tribute, higher than all those before him (in this case the sources do not refer specifically to the jizya).42 The chaos in the Umayyad caliphate following Hishām’s rule, which ended with the fall of the dynasty, seems to have either obscured similar cases, or maybe even aided the local non-Muslim population to evade heavy taxation...

[Chronicle of 1234]:

Abu Ja‘far appointed over Mosul Musa ibn Musʿab,45 a wicked and merciless man, and an enemy of the Christians. He thought up torments which the world had never seen before. He increased tribute and multiplied exactions. He attached lead seals to men’s necks and cut off the thumbs of their hands. He demanded tax (gzītā) even for windows and doors with the result that people were digging up old graves to extract gold and silver.

Christians and others in the Umayyad state.


Also, zakat as a % is income dependant, jizya wasn't.

Only able bodied men who didn't want to serve in defending the community paid Jizya.. Old people, women and children didn't pay Jizya.
 
Augustus, you're just not a credible source on this stuff, Tax on Muslims is much higher than non muslims

Lyndon, give me one reason why anyone should consider that you have the slightest ability to judge who is or who is not a credible source on a subject you are completely ignorant on.

You just parrot whatever you've heard that best aligns with your ideological biases.

Feel free to prove me wrong with recourse to scholarly sources if you like ;)
 

sooda

Veteran Member
They are antisemitic and hold a grudge over losing multiple wars.



If they are actually refugees not economic migrants, as most are now, abusing the system I have little issues.


Ergo ban Zionists not Jews. See the difference? Do note your source is pre-67 war and Jordan annexation. Also there is this gem

"The question of Bolshevism is outside the scope of this article, but it remains to be said that the European Jewish population of Palestine is already tainted with the tenets of that faith. The Jews of Southeastern Europe are, almost to a man, Bolsheviki. Europe and America cannot allow the possibility of a homogeneous Bolshevist state in Palestine, whence the propagandists would be in an excellent position to preach their doctrines throughout Asia, Africa, and the Mediterranean coasts."


Who ranted about Commie Jews? Had a mustache, pointed a lot, talked like a creep.... Vincent Price! No that's not right.

So what does that have to do with Jordan? Nothing... You bluffed, nothing more.

Books & Authors - 96.11

"You say that "Jewry as a whole was converted to Zionism not by arguments but by events." Is there any way that the state of Israel could have been created, perhaps years later, without the events of the Second World War?" (WTF)

A" More to the point, Israel would have been different if it had been created many years before. It would have been established like New Zealand, or the United States, or Australia. At the time these countries were created, nobody really gave any thought to the rights of the indigenous peoples. The misfortune of Zionism was precisely that it belonged to the twentieth century. When I say that Jewry was converted to Zionism by events, I don't mean that Hitler created Israel, but what Hitler and the Final Solution unquestionably did was to create this identification between western Jewry and the new Jewish State, with the result that Jewish anti-Zionism, which had had a very strong tradition before then, really became morally impossible.

What..... I guess this fool never met a Jew that was against Zionism

Many Jews opposed Zionism but their desperate refugee status took precedence. They had no real options, but to move to Palestine for sanctuary.

Are you familiar with Samuel Untermyer?

Remember that Lord Balfour was an ardent Christian Zionist.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
They don't fight openly and they appear to be Christians, Jews, Muslims. They aren't any of those things. They serve lucifer or satan.

It's refreshing to see atheists not be included in a list of those serving Satan.
Thanks for that!
 

sooda

Veteran Member
1400 years across a dozen plus empires you think they had a standardised policy?

Probably not, but you focus only on the negative. Even the European Jews looked down on Arab Jews.

In 1922 Palestinian Jews and Christians united to oppose continued European immigration.
 
Probably not, but you focus only on the negative.

I was originally replying to a generalised statement that the Muslims and Jews had got on well for centuries and said "Well Muslims were on average less hostile to Jews than Christians were including some periods of relative harmony. I'm not sure 'got along well' is entirely accurate."

This isn't "only focusing on the negative", it's a criticism of sugar-coating a complex, diverse, long-term historical issue.

It is a fact that Jews were subject to pogroms, punitive taxes and legal discrimination at times. History wasn't exactly full of inclusive, tolerant 21st C liberal politics anywhere and there is no point in pretending it was.

It is pretty much impossible to discuss Islamic history purely as history these days as it always has to serve someone's modern political agenda.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
I was originally replying to a generalised statement that the Muslims and Jews had got on well for centuries and said "Well Muslims were on average less hostile to Jews than Christians were including some periods of relative harmony. I'm not sure 'got along well' is entirely accurate."

This isn't "only focusing on the negative", it's a criticism of sugar-coating a complex, diverse, long-term historical issue.

It is a fact that Jews were subject to pogroms, punitive taxes and legal discrimination at times. History wasn't exactly full of inclusive, tolerant 21st C liberal politics anywhere and there is no point in pretending it was.

It is pretty much impossible to discuss Islamic history purely as history these days as it always has to serve someone's modern political agenda.

There were still Jews living in Tripoli in 1973.. and they were prosperous. I have elderly Jewish friends whose families prospered in Tunisia, Morocco and Egypt.
 

Wasp

Active Member
What verses did you have in mind?
5:82 "Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe (to be) the Jews and the idolaters. And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians. That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud."
 
There were still Jews living in Tripoli in 1973.. and they were prosperous. I have elderly Jewish friends whose families prospered in Tunisia, Morocco and Egypt.

There are still wealthy Jews living in Europe, doesn't mean all Christians have "always got on well" with all Jews.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
It's refreshing to see atheists not be included in a list of those serving Satan.
Thanks for that!
I hate to disappoint you but ... they call themselves atheist as well. :rolleyes: The point is there are people who are not what they appear to be.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Don't be silly, I said nothing of the sort. How could dhimmi laws make Jews "unique" victims anyway given they also applied to Christians?

There have been no dhimmis for more than 200 years.

After the Burnings of Najran Muhammed waived Jizya to protect the Christians.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Many Jews opposed Zionism but their desperate refugee status took precedence. They had no real options, but to move to Palestine for sanctuary.

Back after WW2 sure. These days that is not the case

Are you familiar with Samuel Untermyer?

Nope. The name does not ring a bell.

Remember that Lord Balfour was an ardent Christian Zionist.

Yes. So?
 

Shad

Veteran Member
There have been no dhimmis for more than 200 years.

After the Burnings of Najran Muhammed waived Jizya to protect the Christians.

More like 163 and due to Western pressure. Of course the Islamists flipped out eventually removing that government in a coup.
 
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